US Regional FO - Year 1 - $206,000 Canadian

[CanadaAir]

Within a year, after 750 company hours, an Envoy FO pay can be at Captain Year Rate
1 $150.00 - $206,000 Canadian



Envoy Rates (US dollar)
E170 regional - 78 seats

100% “Deadhead” Pay
Generous Commuter Policy — We offer up to four paid commuter hotels per month.
Preferential Bidding System — Build your monthly schedule based on your preferences.

Current Rates
First Officer
Year Rate
1 $93.00 - $127,000 Canadian
2 $100.50 - $138,000 Canadian
3 $108.00 - $148,000 Canadian
4 $111.75

After flying 750 hours with company, FOs paid at captain rate,
Captain Pay as a First Officer —Receive Captain’s hourly rate at 750 hours while you fly as a First Officer.

1:1 Longevity Credit — Pilots with previous Part-121 experience can count their years of service toward compensation rates, vacation days and retirement benefits at Envoy. Those hours are also eligible for Captain Pay as a First Officer.


Captain
Year Rate
1 $150.00 - $206,000 Canadian
2 $153.75
3 $157.50
4 $161.25
5 $165.00
6 $168.75
7 $172.50
8 $176.25
9 $180.00
10 $183.75
11 $187.50
12 $191.25
13 $195.00
14 $198.75
15 $202.50
16 $206.25
17 $210.00
18 $213.75
19 $217.50 - $297,000 Canadian
20 $217.50


This limited-time offer will give $100,000 to pilots with 950 qualifying Part 121.436 flight hours, and $75,000 to pilots with 500 to 949 qualifying Part 121.436 flight hours. The full amount of these bonuses (after taxes) will be paid on Day Zero – the day before training.


Long Call Reserve — Get at least 12 hours notice before your trip assignment.
Minimum of 12 days off per month
1:2 Duty & 1:4 Trip Rigs — Get paid for your downtime on trips with fewer flights.



https://www.envoyair.com/pilots/

[RippleRock]

After conversations with a few pilots here, I'm getting the impression that they will accept on the order of 30% with some lifestyle improvements.

This is staggering. ....and I'm hoping they are in the minority.

Anything close to 30% will leave us DEAD LAST by a WIDE margin in every category of North American Legacies, AND last in most categories of US Regionals.

Unreal. I really hope I'm not wearing a "World Class Contract" lanyard as a joke. Please don't make me look stupid. If you are going out on a limb to wear that lanyard with that bold claim you damn well better be willing to back it up.

PROVE MY SKEPTICISM WRONG by......

HOLDING THE LINE.

[Bingo Fuel]

"Hold the Line" means different things to different people.

For some that means 30%-40% with some concessions to improve lifestyle.

For others it means 80-150% and no concessions.

I'd be curious about what the survey data says.

I personally think that a contract that matches an American legacy carrier is possible after some pattern bargaining. This contract is just the first step of this marathon, not the finish line.

[unionism101]

RippleRock while I generally always agree to your sentiments, I think we need some context here as Bingo is saying

The 10 yrs deal was a strategic blunder and the single largest factor in the demise of this profession.

Solidifying concessions from FOS, with piddly 2% raises, locking in a horrific 4 yrs flat pay scheme before historic hiring and saving a pension that is now massively over funded with over half the pilots now not even on that pension

This deal was sold under the guise allowing for an environment of growth. Pay raises were sold as widebody expansion, profit sharing and an employee stock program.

These are not raises and an assessment of the North American Airline environment makes it clear it was all a sham.

The industry is continuing to grow as pilot wages in the US now make the profession the highest paid outside of Healthcare.

US Airline Pilots comparables are neurosurgeons, cardiologists, dentists. They make more than General Practioners.

In Canada, pilots are in the comparable range of plumbers, truck drivers and garbage men.

Delta, with the highest paid pilots in the industry is also the most valued brand in the industry. Funny eh?

We as a profession in this country, get a giant fail for our results.

However, it should be clear, the gains south of the border did not happen in one cycle. It took rounds of pattern bargaining and strategy to get those results. While I agree 30% overall would be pathetic, some context may need to be added. Some Air Canada pilots may receive gains of a 100% due to the absolutely horrific pay for junior pilots. Senior pilots pay will likely be less.

The "old guard" kept saying don't let history repeat itself. The problem is these folks didn't realize what part of history did the damage. It wasn't a militant pilot group and then FOS that was the problem.

It was the actions AFTER FOS that was the problem. The securing of concessions and stagnant pay raises for a decade while completely neutering any sense of unionism to Canada's largest pilot group

That is the MISTAKE that must NEVER be repeated. This battle NEVER ends.

ACPA's "peace for our time" was a huge fail and a fail that is going to take cycles to fix. Calin did a masterful job of union busting. Lines became blurry as ACPA literally saw itself as a training ground for management

So RippleRock...don't get disenchanted because we aren't going to become compensated like United pilots overnight. Show me a pay history graph that has a straight vertical line in it because that is the overnight correction you state is required or you will be made "to look stupid".

The outcome here I am hoping for is massive gains for the shortest contract possible. This sets up to do exactly what we are doing right now and being ready for the next cycle of more massive gains.

We cannot and must not ever think this battle ever ends.

[RippleRock]

"Hold the Line" means different things to different people.

For some that means 30%-40% with some concessions to improve lifestyle.

For others it means 80-150% and no concessions.

I'd be curious about what the survey data says.

I personally think that a contract that matches an American legacy carrier is possible after some pattern bargaining. This contract is just the first step of this marathon, not the finish line.

Pattern bargaining means "not this time, maybe later"....right?

Maybe then I'm just a little bit confused as to what a "World Class Contract" means. That's what it says on my lanyard, and that's what it says on my bag tag.

What does "World Class" mean? It certainly doesn't mean "Canadian Class", or maybe we'll have better "luck" next time in the "pattern". We would look pretty stupid if we meekly accepted a Canadian Class contract, hoping for better luck down the road, while wearing World Class lanyards, wouldn't we?

For the record, those of us who have been on the property 20 years or more remember a day before the avalanche of concessions, and a stagnating salary weren't the "norm". We remember wages that would buy 50%+ or more than they do today.

I'm thinking AC ALPA needs to get on educating the rest of us just how far we've plummeted off our 2002 watermark. Perhaps that would steel our resolve just a bit.

[apples2apples]

RippleRock,

Find me the largest increase a union has got anywhere in this country EVER

And if we beat that, will you still be pouting?

Headlines of the greatest union victory in history of this country and you will be turtled in the corner??

[RippleRock]

RippleRock,

Find me the largest increase a union has got anywhere in this country EVER

And if we beat that, will you still be pouting?

Headlines of the greatest union victory in history of this country and you will be turtled in the corner??

Who's "pouting" Jackass? Get lost.
Do your homework on our history before you comment.


For the record, what does "Victory" look like anyway. Is getting back what was taken away through the FOS collusion a victory? Is a 55% uplift just to keep up with inflation victory? Is giving away hundreds of millions in concessions over the last two decades and recovering 1/4 of those losses considered victory? How about recovering 1/3?

So much has been taken over the years, and so much ground has been lost to inflation that using the word "victory" to describe what will come across that Negots table is ridiculous in any sense. It will just be damage repair.

[apples2apples]

80 plus % voted in a 10 yrs deal that secured "what was taken away"

Why? Why did the pilot group handcuff themselves to such pathetic gains

You're expecting ALPA to correct a total blunder a decade in the making?

So you're saying the largest pay increase in the history of Canada won't satisfy you?

[Freshredmeat]

If junior pilots get 80-100% raises and the average turns out to be 40%, for the pilot group, that would be an impressive trend in the right direction

[RippleRock]

80 plus % voted in a 10 yrs deal that secured "what was taken away"

Why? Why did the pilot group handcuff themselves to such pathetic gains

You're expecting ALPA to correct a total blunder a decade in the making?

So you're saying the largest pay increase in the history of Canada won't satisfy you?

Who are you? Which team are you on, I'm confused. You should know this.

There a book to be written about that 10 year deal fiasco. Sell job extraordinaire, Stockholm Syndrome, burning platforms, threats from the Negots team to quit if we didn't vote yes, you're never getting anything better threats, ACPA invited upper Management sell the deal on stage at roadshows (WTF?!), buying us off with a $10,000 "signing bonus" right before Christmas, that happened to be money we were owed anyways for an unsettled grievance.....it was a complete rout of the Membership orchestrated by management and their minions that made up ACPA.

I voted NO. However, the reasons behind that situation of 84% voting yes to that 10 year "lock-down abomination" is not as simple as it's being portrayed.

And yes, I expect ALPA to pick up the slack and get with the program....... with the Memberships backing. They are asking me to wear a "World Class Contract" lanyard, you'd better bet my expectations of ALPA are very high.



And for the record. It's not a RAISE or an INCREACE if you are just clawing back real LOSSES. It's really a simple concept that anyone should be able to understand.

[alkaseltzer]

apples2apples, is a troll. Admin, please block. There's no utility or thoughtfulness, they probably enlighten themselves in trading crypto or turds.

[MontrealCanucks]

Ripplerock,

What is your "line in the sand" for percentage increase for the deal

[RippleRock]

Ripplerock,

What is your "line in the sand" for percentage increase for the deal

I have one vote of 5200. My individual vote will matter little.

There are a few things to note. I'll try to qualify why my "line in the sand" is where it is. It's my opinion only. Everyone needs to make their own choices about where that line is for them. But don't kid yourself, that line will have downline reprecussions for you and your family. It will directly affect the way you live and work and commute for the rest of your career.

We are roughly 55%+- behind our 2002 wage package, and have given massive lets on our working conditions and Scope. The Corp pocketed all of it for 20+ years. Good for them, it's good business sense. They have benefited from our direct loss for decades now. It's time to play FAIR and PAY BACK a little.

The Corp could afford our wage package in 2002. Why not now during billion dollar quarters? For the record, CCAA was not caused by pilot compensation. Our company is now a license to print money, and that isn't ending soon. Fairly adjusting our wage for inflation alone from 2002 wouldn't be a significant burden. There are plenty of ways to save the difference.

The CEO has stated personally that he believes the US pilots were recovering "retro pay" as he used the term. Retro pay to my understanding is an "adjustment" to a former time. So he apparently believes in "adjustment pay" or compensating for previous losses.......but I won't put words in his mouth entirely.

The CEO also compared his "E-Suite team" directly to United and Delta and stated their compensation is exactly in line with them. Is only the E-suite allowed to use that metric? This comment is in writing.

I'm waiting for the justification that we are not doing comparable work to our US collegues. We are, or we aren't. We often carry US passengers that deplaned a United flight and are continuing their onward journey with us. Is our work valued at half to as little as one quarter the US rate? Why exactly?

We are a "founding member" of Star Alliance, yet we are compensated the worst of all founding members by far. Why?

A happy well compensated pilot is an ASSET. A well compensated pilot is an engaged pilot. A well compensated pilot is proactive. These notions seems utterly lost. We are much more likely to attempt to proactively keep the operation running smoothly by troubleshooting problems ahead by alerting the correct people on the ground, or calling the right people in a timely manner at the gate for support. We can ask for direct routing when it will save time and fuel, we can taxi on one engine when safe, we can expedite the taxi when its safe to do so, we can ask for shorter gates on arrival when safe. We would actually pick up the phone when Crew Sked calls....imagine that. We want the airline to succeed and we don't want our passengers inconvenienced but some of us feel that we are being taken advantage of, so some are not likely as "proactive" with this kind of stuff as they could be.

There are a few items that make me a bit angry. We sacrificed during Covid, some more so than others (layoffs). The E-Suite was compensated for their efforts with million dollar bonuses while all "front line" employee groups were give S-points. Yes, go buy yourself a new toaster, then they tax you on it. Lol. The pilots layed-off were treated poorly. The overreach with the last MOA and the 10% Cargo "ruse" was the icing on the cake. I'd had enough, along with many others. There is just no respect. None. Not from the Corp, and zero from our own union ACPA. Now we are being bullied over lanyards. You can't make this up.

Anyways. I would be OK with 55% in the first year to reset our wage losses only due to inflation, then 3.5% and 3.5% to just keep up with the money printing in Ottawa. Some improvements to vacation credit, min daily garantee equal to other Legacy carriers (5.0 hours+) Pension indexing and improvements for the DC guys and gals. Fix PBS, fix reserve.

That may seem like a lot, but they CAN afford it....and I'm not actually requesting a raise. Just an "adjustment" to a former time with some QOL improvements and an inflation buffer. 55% still leaves us dead last in the US rankings. Let that sink in a bit. 55% IS NOT even "World Class". ALPA AC has it's work cut out if it's to get anywhere close to a WCC, that's for sure.

Call me nuts if you like, but I think I'm being entirely reasonable given how much money the Corp has made off of us over the last two decades. If anyone thinks I'm not being reasonable, let me know why, I'm happy to discuss.

[PositiveRate27]

Ripplerock,

What is your "line in the sand" for percentage increase for the deal

I have one vote of 5200. My individual vote will matter little.

There are a few things to note. I'll try to qualify why my "line in the sand" is where it is. It's my opinion only. Everyone needs to make their own choices about where that line is for them. But don't kid yourself, that line will have downline reprecussions for you and your family. It will directly affect the way you live and work and commute for the rest of your career.

We are roughly 55%+- behind our 2002 wage package, and have given massive lets on our working conditions and Scope. The Corp pocketed all of it for 20+ years. Good for them, it's good business sense. They have benefited from our direct loss for decades now. It's time to play FAIR and PAY BACK a little.

The Corp could afford our wage package in 2002. Why not now during billion dollar quarters? For the record, CCAA was not caused by pilot compensation. Our company is now a license to print money, and that isn't ending soon. Fairly adjusting our wage for inflation alone from 2002 wouldn't be a significant burden. There are plenty of ways to save the difference.

The CEO has stated personally that he believes the US pilots were recovering "retro pay" as he used the term. Retro pay to my understanding is an "adjustment" to a former time. So he apparently believes in "adjustment pay" or compensating for previous losses.......but I won't put words in his mouth entirely.

The CEO also compared his "E-Suite team" directly to United and Delta and stated their compensation is exactly in line with them. Is only the E-suite allowed to use that metric? This comment is in writing.

I'm waiting for the justification that we are not doing comparable work to our US collegues. We are, or we aren't. We often carry US passengers that deplaned a United flight and are continuing their onward journey with us. Is our work valued at half to as little as one quarter the US rate? Why exactly?

We are a "founding member" of Star Alliance, yet we are compensated the worst of all founding members by far. Why?

A happy well compensated pilot is an ASSET. A well compensated pilot is an engaged pilot. A well compensated pilot is proactive. These notions seems utterly lost. We are much more likely to attempt to proactively keep the operation on the rails by troubleshooting problems ahead by alerting the correct people on the ground, or calling the right people in a timely manner at the gate for support. We can ask for direct routing when it will save time and fuel, we can taxi on one engine when safe, we can expedite the taxi when its safe to do so, we can ask for shorter gates on arrival when safe. We would actually pick up the phone when Crew Sked calls....imagine that. We want the airline to succeed and we don't want our passengers inconvenienced but I feel that we are being taken advantage of, so some are not likely as "proactive" with this kind of stuff as they could be.

There are a few items that make me a bit angry. We sacrificed during Covid, some more so than others (layoffs). The E-Suite was compensated for their efforts with million dollar bonuses while all "front line" employee groups were give S-points. Yes, go buy yourself a new toaster. The pilots layed-off were treated poorly. The overreach with the last MOA and the 10% Cargo "thing" was the icing on the cake. I'd had enough, along with many others. There is just no respect. None. Now we are being bullied over lanyards. You can't make this up.

Anyways. I would be OK with 55% in the first year to reset our wage losses only due to inflation, then 3.5% and 3.5% to just keep up with the money printing in Ottawa. Some improvements to vacation credit, min daily garantee equal to other Legacy carriers (5.0 hours+) Pension indexing and improvements for the DC guys and gals. Fix PBS, fix reserve.

That may seem like a lot, but they CAN afford it....and I'm not actually requesting a raise. Just an "adjustment" to a former time with some QOL improvements and an inflation buffer. 55% still leaves us dead last in the US rankings. Let that sink in a bit. 55% IS NOT even "World Class". ALPA AC has it's work cut out if it's to get anywhere close to a WCC, that's for sure.

Call me nuts if you like, but I think I'm being entirely reasonable given how much money the Corp has made off of us over the last two decades. If anyone thinks I'm not being reasonable, let me know why, I'm happy to discuss.

For the record, I don’t think you’re nuts. I think you’ve explained your position clearly and with solid justification.

I whole heartedly agree.

[Ash Ketchum]

As a junior flat pay pilot, my line in the sand is 100% increase to flat pay and only 1-2 years of it not the current 4. 50% minimum increase to formula pay. And of course lifestyle improvements also needed.

[MontrealCanucks]

Well said RippleRock

I don't think those numbers are crazy at all

[CanadaAir]

I personally think that a contract that matches an American legacy carrier is possible after some pattern bargaining. This contract is just the first step of this marathon, not the finish line.

Pattern bargaining means "not this time, maybe later"....right?

Where was the pattern bargaining for the AC CEO?

The AC CEO almost 300% raise
"received total compensation of $12.4 million in 2022, compared with $3.7 million in 2021, according to regulatory documents released by the airline.

https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/air-canada- ... -1.6350491



If you don't think a regional pilot can triple their salaries in one year, take a look at MESA's pay scale (USD).
They went from $36/hour to $100/hour september 2022.

Close triple increase in one agreement

Horizon went from $81 to $150 december 2023.

Where was the pattern bargaining?



Pay rates were posted
viewtopic.php?t=182605&start=20

[CanadaAir]

Several posters mentioning pay concessions for other benefits, what other benefits?

100% deadhead pay?
First class deadheads for all pilots, or 150% pay for economy deadheads?

Federal law required daily min guarantee of 3
AC pilots could go for daily min pay of 6 or 8

Long call reserve?
150% pay for short call reserve

Better hotels?
Airport shuttles?

200% pay to work on holidays?

200% red eye pay for 12am to 6am on your local clock?

4 paid hotels per month for commuters?

Refund of AIF & Nav fees for commuters?

Meals for commuters?

4 guaranteed days off per month?


If AC pilots are going to accept wages lower than US regional FO, what's the exchanged QOL benefits?

[rudder]

4 guaranteed days off per month?

I assume you mean ‘14’ guaranteed days off per month?

This is already the case for the NB pilots. The result being that nearly every NB pilot works 16 days per month.

The heart of the problem is low average daily credit. Even rigs don’t fix it. Company takes whatever rigs you have and drives a Mack truck through it (30 hour layovers/red eye return to Base).

Keep it simple - pay a DMM of 85 EVERY MONTH and available to work maximum 15 days per bid period (12 bid periods per year). If they only plan a pilot to fly 2 hours on a calendar day, that is their problem - not yours. All training events within the 15 work day monthly limit.

Instead, plan to fly 5-6 hours EVERY DAY. 80x12=960. CARS limit is 1000. Pilots will not need overtime with proper pay rates. Pilots will not be available for overtime with the 1000 hour limit and efficient flying assignments.

Many pilots are at work more calendar days per month than they have in their entire decades long career. This is not a great selling feature to high achievers considering choosing a flying vocation.

[Fanblade]

We are roughly 55%+- behind our 2002 wage package, and have given massive lets on our working conditions and Scope. The Corp pocketed all of it for 20+ years. Good for them, it's good business sense. They have benefited from our direct loss for decades now. It's time to play FAIR and PAY BACK a little.

The Corp could afford our wage package in 2002. Why not now during billion dollar quarters? For the record, CCAA was not caused by pilot compensation. Our company is now a license to print money, and that isn't ending soon. Fairly adjusting our wage for inflation alone from 2002 wouldn't be a significant burden. There are plenty of ways to save the difference..

RippleRock,

I appreciate your posts and agree with you 99.9% of the time. But you are mistaken with your statement that we are currently 55% behind our 2002 wages. We need to stay accurate otherwise our credibility disappears. Our own expectations become distorted.

For clarity.

55% is roughly the change in inflation from 2002 to 2023. https://www.bankofcanada.ca/rates/relat ... alculator/

For 55% to be an accurate reflection of how far we are behind 2002, it would mean we haven’t had a raise in 20 years. That is not the case.

There is also very likely a miscommunication happening that is often problematic when using percentages. If you take a 50% pay cut? You need a 100% raise to get back to even. Whenever you hear a percentage you have to ask. Relative to what? Accountant has had fun manipulating this recently.

I will give you a 12 year 737CA as an example.

The current AC 737CA wage is about 30% behind 2003 wages adjusted for inflation.
The current AC 737CA wage needs about a 40% wage increase to match 2003 adjusted to inflation.
The current WJ 737CA wage plus about $50/hour approximates AC 737 wages inflation adjusted from 2003.

This number also approximates what US carriers are making today without currency exchange. Very similar to the 2002 era where we made approximately what the US carriers made but in CAD.

I understand you find those numbers underwhelming. I like your determination. But to be accurate you can’t claim you want 2002 wages adjusted for inflation and in the next sentence reject those wages as not good enough.

You clearly want nothing to do with our old wages. My read on your position is that you want US wages in USD converted into CAD. That is how you view “North American Standard”. You absolutely have a point. However that is a much larger number than our old wages adjusted to today.

To be clear though. As of yet I have heard nothing from ALPA about 2003 adjusted for inflation. Maybe they too view it as substandard. We will know shortly I think.

For increased clarity.

Actual AC 12Y 320CA wage in 2003. $213/hour CAD

Inflation adjusted AC 12Y 320CA wage to today. $333/hour CAD

Actual AC 12Y 320CA wage in 2023. $237/hour CAD

United 12Y 320 CA wage today. $340/USD or $459/hour CAD.

The 55% change you are referring to is $213 to $333. But we don’t make $213 today. Today we make $237. $237 requires a 40% raise to equal $333. $237 requires a 93% raise to equal $459 CAD.

As you can see our 2003 wages adjusted for inflation are similar to US carrier wages WITHOUT consideration of currency. However our 2003 wages adjusted for inflation are not even close to current US carriers wages when placed side by side in the same currency.