Engine Failure Scenario

TopperHarley · Post by **TopperHarley** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 7:03 pm

Just looking for some different opinions on the following scenario:

You've been cleared to enter a hold, inbound on your final approach course for an NDB app. The turns are to be made on the opposite side of the procedure turn. Now assume it's a direct entry, and you experience an engine failure, a little before crossing the NDB to enter the hold.

Would you:
A) Keep flying the airplane, maintain control. Enter the hold as normal, then make a mayday call for an approach.
B) Keep flying the airplane, maintain control. Instead of entering the hold, you enter the procedure turn (opposite side to which holding pattern is supposed to be). Make a mayday call for an approach.
C) Keep flying the airplane, and expedite the approach immediately (i.e. you neither enter the hold nor the procedure turn, but go straight for the approach).

I know there are a lot of variables that should be considered. But for the sake, let's assume that the plane is controllable on 1 engine with good enough performance to maintain flight.

I would personally choose option A), since you've been cleared to enter the hold, and you know for a fact that that side is protected (ie. you're not always sure as to why ATC might make you hold on the opposite side of the PT). The only problem I see is that if you are at a high altitude, you won't be sure if it's safe to descend to your PT altitude, since that altitude only applies to the PT side, and not the opposite side (where the hold is to take place).

Opinions?

flyinhigh · Post by **flyinhigh** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 7:26 pm

Option 1 is what I would do.
Fly the aircraft foremost, enter into the hold (as you said its protected), declare the emergency and use this as your procedure turn but maintain that altitude you are at.
On the wrong side of a procedure turn you are still safe to the 25 msa, decend to this altitude, you can go outside of your 10nm procedure area as you are at your 25nm safe if you need to, once on the inbound track and 10nm you can start down to you DH.

Thats what I would do anyway, at least in the area I fly.

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 7:37 pm

CHRIS...first off, a Mayday call is out of the question...unless you have run out of fuel, or have only one engine....PC12?. Go with A, but make ATC KNOW it will be a reall short turn around, and you ARE on finial after the inbound turn!

The Hammer · Post by **The Hammer** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 8:52 pm

What's the hurry??? Do the drill,Run your emergency checklists, get yourself set up for the approach, and tell ATC to ditch the hold, get vectors (if available ) and tell him you'll advise when your ready for the approach. If your flying a complex a/c the checklists are usually quite long, u have to to advise to the back end, etc and if you ain't burnin' there really isn't a rush. (assuming u can mantain altitude on one)

If you rush into an approach and bungle it you put yourself in a even higher workload situation. Not to mention unstabilized approaches are usually the ones that cause smoking holes (Have you ever heard of a crash were the guys were set up way back, on speed and descended on a 3 degree slope. Not very often)

xsbank · Post by **xsbank** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 10:51 pm

Aviate, navigate, communicate. You've lost an engine - big deal. You've trained for this and it should not cause (too much) undue stress. Hey, like it was just said, you have checklists/QRH to run, passengers to brief, catering and limos to arrange for the crash site. You are exactly where you want to be, in a hold at the airport you want to land at, and you don't need to worry about any more navigating or other traffic. You need to advise ATC that you have shut down an engine, declare an emergency (mayday works particularly well where English is not the first language) because if something else happens, the post mortem to the crash will want to know why you did not declare an emergency. Then, when you are COMPLETELY ready, ask for the approach.

By the way, most North American pilots are too cool to use Pan or Mayday - Wrong. Look up when you are supposed to use them, then use them! You get priority, cleared airspace, crash trucks (everywhere except Canada, cause we don't have any. We get the local fire department) and an attaboy from everybody you have attracted and will talk to after you have landed. You want this attention and you don't want to risk a misunderstanding.

Oh never mind, I looked it up for you:

"An emergency condition is classified in accordance with the degree of danger or hazard present.

(a) Distress is a situation when safety is being threatened by grave and imminent danger and requires immediate assistance. The spoken word for distress is MAYDAY and is pronounced 3 times.

(b) Urgency is a situation where the safety of an aircraft or other vehicle, or of some person on board or within sight is threatened, but does not require immediate assistance. The spoken word for urgency is PANPAN and is pronounced 3 times.

The first transmission of the distress call and message by an aircraft should be on the air-to-ground frequency in use at the time. If the aircraft is unable to establish communication on the frequency in use, the distress call and message should be repeated on the general calling and distress frequency (3023.5 kHz or 121.5 MHz), or any other frequency available, such as 2182 kHz and 5680 kHz, in an effort to establish communications with any ground or other aircraft station.

The distress call shall have absolute priority over all other transmissions. All stations hearing it shall immediately cease any transmission which may interfere with it and shall listen on the frequency used for the distress call.

Example of a Distress Message from an Aircraft:

MAYDAY, MAYDAY, MAYDAY, THIS IS CFZXY, CFZXY, CFZXY, FIVE ZERO MILES SOUTH OF YELLOWKNIFE AT ONE SEVEN TWO FIVE ZULU, FOUR THOUSAND, NORSEMAN, ICING, WILL ATTEMPT CRASH LANDING ON ICE, CFZXY, OVER.

Example of An Urgency Message Addressed to All Stations:

PANPAN, PANPAN, PANPAN, ALL STATIONS, ALL STATIONS, ALL STATIONS, THIS IS TIMMINS RADIO, TIMMINS RADIO, TIMMINS RADIO, EMERGENCY DESCENT AT TIMMINS AIRPORT, ATC INSTRUCTS ALL AIRCRAFT BELOW SIX THOUSAND FEET WITHIN RADIUS OF ONE ZERO MILES OF TIMMINS NDB LEAVE EAST AND NORTH COURSES IMMEDIATELY, THIS IS TIMMINS RADIO OUT.

Emergency procedures are contained in RAC and SAR sections of the TC AIM."

. ._ · Post by **. ._** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 11:03 pm

If my engine fails, I'm gonna get on the ground as soon as possible. IT'S an EMERGENCY! If I'm nice and set up for the approach, "MAYDAY, @#$! you, I'm coming in!"

How many people have died because they didn't declare an emergency?

You are the pilot in command, and no matter what rules or regulations are out there, you get that fucking plane on the ground in one piece!

My $0.02.

-istp

kavupilot · Post by **kavupilot** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 11:39 pm

i like istp's response forget about what the avcanada answer is A.. just do the checklist and put er on the ground

185/310 · Post by **185/310** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 12:59 am

I would go with option A, but the chances of having a controlable aircraft in most circumstances is unlikely, ex so if your in a king air probably not a problem, but if your in a loaded navajo on a hot day, get the fuckin plane on the ground asap, if u can make it for the straight in, do it.

ZBB118.10 · Post by **ZBB118.10** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 5:13 am

if your in a king air probably not a problem, but if your in a loaded navajo on a hot day, get the fuckin plane on the ground asap, if u can make it for the straight in, do it.

Well put. Dragging her around the hold at a high MP settting on your good engine in a loaded Ho with rapidly rising CHT's etc at blue line is pretty heroic, but not necessarily preferrable to taking her straight in if you can. The situation is at least worth a Pan declaration (so ATC can priority handle you) but then if the chips are down, screw ATC, let them know your intentions and do whatever you need to do to safely get the a/c on the ground.

groundtoflightdeck · Post by **groundtoflightdeck** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 6:48 am

I would add, to, that the descision of which side of the final approach to complete a procedure on should be made with the idea of banking into the good engine. As it was said though try for vectors (turns to the good side) or a strait in. I wouldn't worry about the time to complete a checklist, engine failure/fires with securing should take you about 1 minute, its prudent to get on the gound before there are futher complications.

lost · Post by **lost** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 7:08 am

Last year at sim I was asked what I considered an emergency. The long and short of the conversation was, just because the a/c still handles well doesnt mean it will continue to after a drill is completed. If something (like an engine failure) happens you want priority. Why? because unless parts are hanging out you probably don't know why it quit. Or say you get a fire and it goes out, you don't know what damage has been done. I agree if you loose an engine and the a/c is still flying well take your time and methodically get yourself to the runway, BUT you do want priority and the only way to get that for sure is declare an emergency. If you just fly domestically in Canada if you tell ATC you've blown a fan they are most likely going to treat it like a 5 alarm fire but there are many cases where language was an issue that the failure to use the term MAYDAY cost lives. Last, what section of the manual do you find the engine failure drill? I'm pretty sure all manufacturers put it in the same place and its not normal ops.

On the origional question, I would make the turn to the hold side because like stated before your probably on that side for a reason and TELL ATC what I'm going to do. IE. start the approach turning in at the 25 mile safe height or asking what the lowest safe height on my side is etc.

Just my 2 cents... actually about a $1.25

The Hammer · Post by **The Hammer** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 7:45 am

cpt sweet'njuicy wrote:
...whats the hurry?..the plane chris flies or will fly is of questionable power...if the good engine goes away and he is left with a soft engine at max weight on a hot wet day then he will begin to creep toward the vmc...throw in some shitty new guy handling mistakes and you have a desire to get it down as soon as you can...i caught you planning a best case scenerio.

No I wasn't planning a best case scenario cause best case would be me sitting in a bar drink a cold beer reading about your sorry ass dealing with this problem

I figured stating to do whatever necessary to get safely on the ground is kinda of obvious. Rushing and missing something ie the approach, system transfer etc isn't going to help you either. Do you really want to land and then find out you have no brakes because you forgot to txfr/ energize the backup system cause you were in a hurry???

Soft engine???? Ever heard of a pen? and a maintenance log book? There sure are lots of benefits of operating with a soft engine. Ask Sonic blue's van driver or Nav air's MU-2 pilots in YXT or Navair's cheiftian pilot's on the island. Oh you can't!! their all dead!!! A metro II should do approx 180kts single engine. That must be one hell of a Vmc. Here's a piloting hint for you PUT THE FUCKING GEAR UP

PS Your planes are lighter at gross than they used to be because the pax weights went up[/b]

broompusher · Post by **broompusher** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 9:47 am

Here's an actual senario I was in;

Last year I was surveying in a Navajo 50nm from the airport @ 3500agl and big hills between me and the airport. Aircraft was at max gross at T/O (6700lbs with the VG kit), OAT approx. 25c and weather was VFR.

20min into the flight the critical engine went BOOM!, smoke and oil started coming out of the cowling in large quantities.

I prceeded to do the fowling in this order

1. Shit myself
2. Shut down the engine
3. go through Emergency checklist
4. monitor good engine
5. contact atc and request fire trucks (I'm loaded with nearly 1500lbs of 100LL) and was landing at an MF airport.

I was unable to maintain altitude, I was decending at 200-300 FPM, I was however flying the plane 24kt above blue line but I wanted to get my ass on the ground safely asap.

Landed just fine at the airport and smoked an entire pack of smokes in about 2hrs.

My point in all this is; this exactly how i did react, was there any different way to handle this emergency and have a safe outcome? Yes probably.

In Chris's post there was no reference to a/c type. So, like it was mentioned in a previous post, maybe the a/c cannot maintain altitude, this will cause different decisions to be made in the a/c during the emerg. than say if it happened in something that could easily maintain altitude.

I don't think there is any deffinate answer that can be established sitting at the computer. Just the basics, Aviate, Navigate, Communicate, SOPs and from there its purely situational.

Just my 2c

Troubleshot · Post by **Troubleshot** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 3:35 pm

This is what can happen when you don't declare emergency

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_i ... 2401&key=1

Pratt · Post by **Pratt** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 9:42 pm

There is a difference between declaring an emergency and having to go the "Mayday,Mayay,Mayday" route. IF you are in communication with ATC, the declaration of an emergency will get all of the same happening as if you had done the Mayday route, however if you are not in contact with ATC, then the Mayday call would be the route to follow.

The Mayday route, I believe is more intended to be used if you are out in the boonies somewhere and experience a problem and have nobody to direct your call to, you want everyone on the freq to pay attention and help out if possible.

Calling Mayday will get you the same response with ATC as just declaring an emergency, but generally when in contact with ATC a call to them declaring an emergency will get the ball rolling.

Trust me, I have been there, more than once.

The Hammer · Post by **The Hammer** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 6:23 am

cpt sweet'njuicy wrote:...never flown a metro hammer...no problem..one day you might get it...an engine can be soft and still make required power..its still soft...you 180 knots can bleed away with handling errors and poor piloting...once an engine fails it is important to rush through the checklist via memory and use tight turns to get the plane down...i read that somewhere

It's probably somewhere in flite sim 2000

flyinhigh · Post by **flyinhigh** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 7:45 pm

The Hammer wrote: It's probably somewhere in flite sim 2000

LOL