Westjet cancelling flights due to cold in Calgary

[digits_]

https://globalnews.ca/news/10223541/wes ... reme-cold/

Is cold the real reason for these cancellations? I'm a bit surprised. Yes it was cold, but -40C is not that rare in Canada. King Airs and even airliners at northern operators fly around in those temperatures routinely.

From friends in Calgary I've heard that AC did not cancel that many flights. Not sure if that was correct information.

The same thing seems to be happening today. Clear skies. Holdover times should not be an issue. Its 'only' -27 as well today.

What's up?

[Inverted2]

I don’t fly 737 but a lot of the newer aircraft types have a -40c limitation for dispatch.

[digits_]

I don’t fly 737 but a lot of the newer aircraft types have a -40c limitation for dispatch.

Yikes. Guess the North will have no choice but to keep old junkers airborne then...

Do you happen to know what part of the plane is reponsible for that? New composite material limitations? Fluids? Electronics?

[goingnowherefast]

Ground equipment starts breaking. What do you do when the tug won't start or the fuel truck air brakes freeze?

I'm not saying this is the reason for the cancellations. Just that -40° is a very harsh working environment

[Inverted2]

I don’t fly 737 but a lot of the newer aircraft types have a -40c limitation for dispatch.

Yikes. Guess the North will have no choice but to keep old junkers airborne then...

Do you happen to know what part of the plane is reponsible for that? New composite material limitations? Fluids? Electronics?

All I know is the Dash 8 classic was good to -54c and it’s newer mutation the Q400 was only good to -40c
It’s what the manufacturer certifies them to…

[nohojob]

Could be deicing limitations

[Flight94]

YEG was -44 yesterday morning, deice fluid LOUT is -43. I know that alone caused a few delays. Also the previously mentioned ground equipment. Frozen lavs, pot water rigs, fuel trucks, bridges, you name it. Anyone who has operated equipment in the extreme cold knows how difficult it is.

[ant_321]

Besides equipment issues I would imagine they were extremely short handed on the ramp as well. Not many people are going to work outside when it’s below -40 for $15/hr.

[dontcallmeshirley]

All I know is the Dash 8 classic was good to -54c and it’s newer mutation the Q400 was only good to -40c
It’s what the manufacturer certifies them to…

Not quite.

The Q can operate (ground/air) in temperatures as low as -54C. Engine operating minimum temperature is also -54C, but their starts are limited to a minimum oil temperature of -40C. You can pre-heat the Q400 engine allowing you to operate in temperatures between -40 and -54C.

Is cold the real reason for these cancellations? I'm a bit surprised. Yes it was cold, but -40C is not that rare in Canada. King Airs and even airliners at northern operators fly around in those temperatures routinely.

From friends in Calgary I've heard that AC did not cancel that many flights. Not sure if that was correct information.

The same thing seems to be happening today. Clear skies. Holdover times should not be an issue. Its 'only' -27 as well today.

What's up?

The main reasons are deicing and crewing delays due to operating constraints, as explained above.

So, what's up? Why is this mainly affecting WestJet?

Simple, WestJet is the biggest operator in Alberta. Air Canada has most flights and crews starting outside of Alberta whereas WestJet has the majority of it's airplanes and crews spending the night in the cold.

[airway]

I heard that in order to certify a new type to a certain temp, they had to test the aircraft in actual conditions on the ground. If you can’t find anywhere colder than -40 for months, how long do you want to delay certification?

[fish4life]

I’d imagine the OHSA rules around those temperatures require quite a few warm up breaks compared to working the ramp for a northern airline with Inuit working in Rankin that prefer the cold. I remember a day in the arctic that hit close to +20 and all the ramp guys struggled with the heat meanwhile in the winter I’ve got gloves on and I’m cold and the ramp guys love it and hardly wore gloves.

Tough people that’s for sure.

[Oleo 4]

The cold has been causing issues with LOUT, equipment, personnel, network planning (AC location), and irop recovery. It's a combination of all of these factors that most likely caused proactive cancellations as we near the end of the bitter cold temps here in the prairies. I had a delay for a few hours the other day due to the LOUT and precipitation effectively stopping operations in YYC.

United froze their brakes that day after push back and had a heck of a time trying to get back to the gate. An AC max pushed back off the gate and was unable to start its engine after 4 attempts and went back to the gate. It took us two ground crews to unload then load our aircraft due to the temperatures on the ramp and wind.

The ramp crew at all airlines regardless of stripe or colour deserve our respect and appreciation over these last few days more than ever. I witnessed them running in and out of the office / trucks to do their jobs as best as they could in weather that could cause exposure issues in minutes. If your working today maybe consider buying them a coffee and saying thanks!

O

[J31]

There are no airframe temperature limits on the 737NG or Max. Boeing does recommend preheating the Hydro-Mechanical Unit if the engine has cold soaked -40 or below.

The were issues with de-icing temperature limits and at times it was too cold for hold over times in freezing fog.

[digits_]

There are no airframe temperature limits on the 737NG or Max. Boeing does recommend preheating the Hydro-Mechanical Unit if the engine has cold soaked -40 or below.

The were issues with de-icing temperature limits and at times it was too cold for hold over times in freezing fog.

Thanks!

[Hugh Jasshole]

As an AME in YEG, I was day shift last week during the COLD snap and dealing with the Blue/Teal and Orange head starts. If you check the historical lows on Environment Canada WX site for YEG, we had a low of -45.9 on 12th, -45.3 on 13th and -45.1 on the 14th. The Boeing AMM requires heating when oil temps get to -40. The coldest oil temps I saw were -36. The NG's started at these temps, but the Max's struggled. Because of this, we were preheating all of the Max's and the oil temp would go from -35 to 0 in about 20 minutes by sticking the Herman Nelson hose in the IDG door at the bottom of engine. Even with the pre-heat, the Max engines were not starting. They were having fuel flow issues?? It took 3-4 attempts and finally they were stable. When I was done the busy 5 day shift I Googled the freezing temperature of Jet A and the Shell site says -47. Maybe we were getting close to fuel gelling and that was causing our starting issues?? The oil and engine was nice and warm, but the fuel in the pylon was getting thick?? Just my current theory

[billhill]

The fuel in the pylon was getting a bit thick??? How thick do you think it gets at 40,000 feet? Cold weather ops..you would think everyone here was born yesterday. Teal was saying that deice fluid was not performing it's function at -40. Why are you even attempting to deice at -40? Are you aware that there is literally no moisture at -40? So why are you deicing? Just because? People no longer use their brains. That is the biggest problem.

[digits_]

The fuel in the pylon was getting a bit thick??? How thick do you think it gets at 40,000 feet? Cold weather ops..you would think everyone here was born yesterday. Teal was saying that deice fluid was not performing it's function at -40. Why are you even attempting to deice at -40? Are you aware that there is literally no moisture at -40? So why are you deicing? Just because? People no longer use their brains. That is the biggest problem.

There's a difference running a plane at -40 and starting one up in those temperatures. Fuel is usually heated by the hot oil once the engines are running.

[dontcallmeshirley]

The fuel in the pylon was getting a bit thick??? How thick do you think it gets at 40,000 feet? Cold weather ops..you would think everyone here was born yesterday. Teal was saying that deice fluid was not performing it's function at -40. Why are you even attempting to deice at -40? Are you aware that there is literally no moisture at -40? So why are you deicing? Just because? People no longer use their brains. That is the biggest problem.

The hydraulic systems are cooled in each wing tank. The heat warms up the fuel.

On the Q, the engine oil is cooled in the wing tanks and the fuel is pumped around.

As you can see, with both of those systems, they don't do anything when the aircraft isn't powered.

[Airbrake]

The fuel in the pylon was getting a bit thick??? How thick do you think it gets at 40,000 feet? Cold weather ops..you would think everyone here was born yesterday. Teal was saying that deice fluid was not performing it's function at -40. Why are you even attempting to deice at -40? Are you aware that there is literally no moisture at -40? So why are you deicing? Just because? People no longer use their brains. That is the biggest problem.

I had to de-ice at a very low temp and it isn’t because I wanted to but because the aircraft required it. If you aren’t there it seems a bit judgy to assume any of the crews were doing it because of not using their brains.

[boeingboy]

As an AME in YEG, I was day shift last week during the COLD snap and dealing with the Blue/Teal and Orange head starts. If you check the historical lows on Environment Canada WX site for YEG, we had a low of -45.9 on 12th, -45.3 on 13th and -45.1 on the 14th. The Boeing AMM requires heating when oil temps get to -40. The coldest oil temps I saw were -36. The NG's started at these temps, but the Max's struggled. Because of this, we were preheating all of the Max's and the oil temp would go from -35 to 0 in about 20 minutes by sticking the Herman Nelson hose in the IDG door at the bottom of engine. Even with the pre-heat, the Max engines were not starting. They were having fuel flow issues?? It took 3-4 attempts and finally they were stable. When I was done the busy 5 day shift I Googled the freezing temperature of Jet A and the Shell site says -47. Maybe we were getting close to fuel gelling and that was causing our starting issues?? The oil and engine was nice and warm, but the fuel in the pylon was getting thick?? Just my current theory

It has to do with the pre-start tests that the system does during the bow rotor motoring, If you let the engine get to max motoring (31%) and let it sit there for a moment before throwing the fuel in - they will usually start every time. Its when the pilots put fuel to it too early that they have issues.

[CaptDukeNukem]

The fuel in the pylon was getting a bit thick??? How thick do you think it gets at 40,000 feet? Cold weather ops..you would think everyone here was born yesterday. Teal was saying that deice fluid was not performing it's function at -40. Why are you even attempting to deice at -40? Are you aware that there is literally no moisture at -40? So why are you deicing? Just because? People no longer use their brains. That is the biggest problem.

Hmmm….. if you are a pilot, then I suggest you start reading From the Ground Up from page 1.

Or bust out that capital one prepaid Mastercard and start scraping wings at -40 till you think it’s good enough to go.