Since this area of AvCanada has been pretty quiet, I thought I would introduce a poll.
The question is, If Air Canada truly gets a "world class contract" and eliminates or significantly reduces the time spent on flat pay, would you leave corporate aviation and join BIg Red?
Would you go to AC?
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throwawaycorporate
- Rank 2
- Posts: 83
- Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2018 5:32 pm
Re: Would you go to AC?
By World Class Contract are we talking the standard of legacies in the US? $90K first year, no less than 200 as FO on any equipment by year 3, 16 days max worked, favourable vacation accrual and a 16% direct pension contribution? I don't think there would be a pilot in Canada without an application in at AC at that point.
Are we talking WestJet's new contract +10%? For anyone with a reasonably long remainder of career, it might still make sense to go.
Some previously very desirable and coveted 604s have been posting pilot jobs over the last few years as pilots have experienced increasing options for DEC opportunities (Flair, Porter, KF etc).
I don't know what exactly will happen but I am confident Canadian aviation will continue to have massive change in WAWCON over the next few years
Are we talking WestJet's new contract +10%? For anyone with a reasonably long remainder of career, it might still make sense to go.
Some previously very desirable and coveted 604s have been posting pilot jobs over the last few years as pilots have experienced increasing options for DEC opportunities (Flair, Porter, KF etc).
I don't know what exactly will happen but I am confident Canadian aviation will continue to have massive change in WAWCON over the next few years
Re: Would you go to AC?
I've flown corporate for most of my career. It's an entirely different lifestyle and money is only part of the package.
Most corporate ops fly far less than the airlines, but tend to be on call more often. Some owners have last-minute flights all the time, and some have their schedules planned months in advance. A good corporate gig offers a better work-life balance than an airline gig, but airline gigs tend to offer more 'security' (whatever that is) and predictability.
The average corporate pilot at Canada's largest corporate operator flies just under 215 hours a year.
Corporate pay in Canada has risen significantly in the last couple of years (I'd like to take some credit for a tiny part of that, but that's an entirely different story that won't be told on this forum), with the average tenured Challenger Captain making around 200k/yr. With the heavies - the Globals and Gulfstreams and tri-engine Falcons etc - you see salaries in the 230-275k range now being much more common, with the occasional outlier on either side. These are all Captain salaries, and for tenured (ie 5-10 years experience) crew. FO salaries still need work, but most of the corporate tails I see are co-captain setups, or maybe 2-3 captains and 1 Fo. It appears to me that the billionaires tend to want that extra experience in the cockpit and are willing to pay for it. It's somewhat rare to have a dedicated FO on a heavy corporate machine in Canada.
It's also a different mindset. With corporate, you generally are responsible for a wider variety of things than at the airlines. I mean stuff like checking customs paperwork or making sure the catering is on time or setting up your own hotels etc. Also, when stuff goes wrong, corporate pilots might have less support in the field than airline ops. Also also, when I'm on duty I know that I'm a supporting character to the main character - my job is to get them on their way safely and efficiently and it is a common understanding between us that I'll go the extra mile every time to make sure they are delighted with their experience as well. Airline people don't have that last part to deal with, but they have to deal with the general public, who are obviously awful all the time
All that being said, schedule trumps money for me. Corporate has allowed me the time and opportunity to pursue all sorts of things that make me happy. I currently have a good setup with awesome owners, and my next flight is a short day-trip in 10 days, then two weeks later we are heading far away for a few days, then nothing on the books for two weeks til we do another day-trip. I'm scheduled to fly about 20 times this year.
With that sort of schedule and the way I'm treated and compensated, I have everything I need. Sure it would always be nice to get more money, but not at the cost of the life I currently have.
Most corporate ops fly far less than the airlines, but tend to be on call more often. Some owners have last-minute flights all the time, and some have their schedules planned months in advance. A good corporate gig offers a better work-life balance than an airline gig, but airline gigs tend to offer more 'security' (whatever that is) and predictability.
The average corporate pilot at Canada's largest corporate operator flies just under 215 hours a year.
Corporate pay in Canada has risen significantly in the last couple of years (I'd like to take some credit for a tiny part of that, but that's an entirely different story that won't be told on this forum), with the average tenured Challenger Captain making around 200k/yr. With the heavies - the Globals and Gulfstreams and tri-engine Falcons etc - you see salaries in the 230-275k range now being much more common, with the occasional outlier on either side. These are all Captain salaries, and for tenured (ie 5-10 years experience) crew. FO salaries still need work, but most of the corporate tails I see are co-captain setups, or maybe 2-3 captains and 1 Fo. It appears to me that the billionaires tend to want that extra experience in the cockpit and are willing to pay for it. It's somewhat rare to have a dedicated FO on a heavy corporate machine in Canada.
It's also a different mindset. With corporate, you generally are responsible for a wider variety of things than at the airlines. I mean stuff like checking customs paperwork or making sure the catering is on time or setting up your own hotels etc. Also, when stuff goes wrong, corporate pilots might have less support in the field than airline ops. Also also, when I'm on duty I know that I'm a supporting character to the main character - my job is to get them on their way safely and efficiently and it is a common understanding between us that I'll go the extra mile every time to make sure they are delighted with their experience as well. Airline people don't have that last part to deal with, but they have to deal with the general public, who are obviously awful all the time
All that being said, schedule trumps money for me. Corporate has allowed me the time and opportunity to pursue all sorts of things that make me happy. I currently have a good setup with awesome owners, and my next flight is a short day-trip in 10 days, then two weeks later we are heading far away for a few days, then nothing on the books for two weeks til we do another day-trip. I'm scheduled to fly about 20 times this year.
With that sort of schedule and the way I'm treated and compensated, I have everything I need. Sure it would always be nice to get more money, but not at the cost of the life I currently have.
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vanislepilot
- Rank 3
- Posts: 141
- Joined: Mon Dec 20, 2021 4:01 pm
Re: Would you go to AC?
have done both corporate and airline, I am also on the younger side of life so my opinion is a bit biased,
But I wont return to corporate flying.
I may have just had a sour experience but,
I remember not just being a pilot. Cleaning hangars, stocking catering, coffees that nobody drank, newspapers that were never read, trying to shove a bunch of heavy bags and golf clubs into a tiny cargo hold, having to be at the mercy of the PAX every request. Not to mention the countless odd jobs like taking out the trash or mowing grass.
Absolutely no support, you are flight planning, dispatch, rampie, fueler, always under a microscope.
Not a time building job at all.
Not all corporate jobs are like this, yes there are some amazing ones arguably better than the airlines. Those are so few compared to the ones I did.
Very little actual days off. **** I do not care if you go 2 weeks with no flying, every day the boss can do a last minute trip is a day worked****
As a young pilot, the airlines are absolutely the place to be. Come in, only fly THATS IT. Just FLY. On your days off, use your travel passes and see the world. Plus, you make significantly more money with plenty of opportunity to make more money.
Again airlines aren't for everyone and this is not a dig to anyone who doesn't join, but the worst airline job in my opinion is far better than the worst corporate job
But I wont return to corporate flying.
I may have just had a sour experience but,
I remember not just being a pilot. Cleaning hangars, stocking catering, coffees that nobody drank, newspapers that were never read, trying to shove a bunch of heavy bags and golf clubs into a tiny cargo hold, having to be at the mercy of the PAX every request. Not to mention the countless odd jobs like taking out the trash or mowing grass.
Absolutely no support, you are flight planning, dispatch, rampie, fueler, always under a microscope.
Not a time building job at all.
Not all corporate jobs are like this, yes there are some amazing ones arguably better than the airlines. Those are so few compared to the ones I did.
Very little actual days off. **** I do not care if you go 2 weeks with no flying, every day the boss can do a last minute trip is a day worked****
As a young pilot, the airlines are absolutely the place to be. Come in, only fly THATS IT. Just FLY. On your days off, use your travel passes and see the world. Plus, you make significantly more money with plenty of opportunity to make more money.
Again airlines aren't for everyone and this is not a dig to anyone who doesn't join, but the worst airline job in my opinion is far better than the worst corporate job
Re: Would you go to AC?
If you weren't based in YYZ, YVR or YUL, with terrible scheduling and reserve rules?
Maybe.
Maybe.
Re: Would you go to AC?
In a nutshell, absolutely.
Better pay longer term, predictable schedule, better retirement options, generally better benefits, then there is job security. You fly plane, do job and go home. No fretting explaining to the boss why his third trip in a row is canceled for a maintenance issue, no catering woes, no expectation of side jobs and no strange looks when you don’t land buttery smooth after a long day.
If they get a decent contract, management corporate, fractional and other poor performing operators will be struggling to find any qualified resumes, let alone any desirable ones.
Better pay longer term, predictable schedule, better retirement options, generally better benefits, then there is job security. You fly plane, do job and go home. No fretting explaining to the boss why his third trip in a row is canceled for a maintenance issue, no catering woes, no expectation of side jobs and no strange looks when you don’t land buttery smooth after a long day.
If they get a decent contract, management corporate, fractional and other poor performing operators will be struggling to find any qualified resumes, let alone any desirable ones.
Re: Would you go to AC?
Absolutely, I think now is the time especially for younger guys who have a long career ahead. If you're not seriously considering it, you should be.
Sure chances are you will take a layoff at AC in the next 25-30yrs but it will always be temporary. Unionized job security is something that's hard to put a price on. In corporate, you're at the mercy of the owner's whims, who could decide to pull the plane tomorrow and you're out on the street.
Apart from a dozen or so (if that) "golden goose" gigs in corporate, the lifestyle sucks. We all know the old story - lots of "days off" except you can't do anything or go anywhere..."additional duties as required"...etc etc.
I think the only thing holding most back right now is the starting pay and it seems that will be rectified in the upcoming contract. If you can survive the initial pain the payoff in terms of career earnings, benefits, and retirement is no contest.
The other thing to consider is you can come back to corporate quite easily if AC really doesn't turn out to be your thing. A lot more difficult to go the other way if you miss this hiring wave and end up botl with 6000 numbers ahead of you.
Sure chances are you will take a layoff at AC in the next 25-30yrs but it will always be temporary. Unionized job security is something that's hard to put a price on. In corporate, you're at the mercy of the owner's whims, who could decide to pull the plane tomorrow and you're out on the street.
Apart from a dozen or so (if that) "golden goose" gigs in corporate, the lifestyle sucks. We all know the old story - lots of "days off" except you can't do anything or go anywhere..."additional duties as required"...etc etc.
I think the only thing holding most back right now is the starting pay and it seems that will be rectified in the upcoming contract. If you can survive the initial pain the payoff in terms of career earnings, benefits, and retirement is no contest.
The other thing to consider is you can come back to corporate quite easily if AC really doesn't turn out to be your thing. A lot more difficult to go the other way if you miss this hiring wave and end up botl with 6000 numbers ahead of you.
Re: Would you go to AC?
I suppose a proper definition of corporate would be required. Are we including fractional operators? Are we including a bulk of the tails operating out of the north end that are solely dispatched by the sales team?
If I had your gig or one of the few similar I wouldn’t bat an eye at AC or any airline in the USA. In my opinion, Lifestyle and pay (+compound interest) now trumps lifestyle (at the expense of pay) or pay (at the expense of lifestyle) in the mid future. That being said I’ve been lucky enough to avoid most of the horror stories and still very much believe corporate aviation is the best kept.
I’m curious what seniority the most junior captain to have Christmas vacation awarded and the most junior captain to get summer vacation awarded as well as their start date.
If I had your gig or one of the few similar I wouldn’t bat an eye at AC or any airline in the USA. In my opinion, Lifestyle and pay (+compound interest) now trumps lifestyle (at the expense of pay) or pay (at the expense of lifestyle) in the mid future. That being said I’ve been lucky enough to avoid most of the horror stories and still very much believe corporate aviation is the best kept.
I’m curious what seniority the most junior captain to have Christmas vacation awarded and the most junior captain to get summer vacation awarded as well as their start date.
Re: Would you go to AC?
Again, most corporate ops I'm familiar with aren't giving you "Christmas vacation" neither - you might get 1 or 2 days. Been in plenty of interviews where the first thing the owners ask is "are you okay with working holidays?"up on one wrote: ↑Fri Jan 26, 2024 5:22 pm I suppose a proper definition of corporate would be required. Are we including fractional operators? Are we including a bulk of the tails operating out of the north end that are solely dispatched by the sales team?
If I had your gig or one of the few similar I wouldn’t bat an eye at AC or any airline in the USA. In my opinion, Lifestyle and pay (+compound interest) now trumps lifestyle (at the expense of pay) or pay (at the expense of lifestyle) in the mid future. That being said I’ve been lucky enough to avoid most of the horror stories and still very much believe corporate aviation is the best kept.
I’m curious what seniority the most junior captain to have Christmas vacation awarded and the most junior captain to get summer vacation awarded as well as their start date.
Same story with summer, depends on "coverage" and unless aircraft is in heavy mx you're not getting extended time off.
It varies wildly depending on the owner: a few treat their pilots almost like family, to most you're just another low level employee. And the guys at the former obviously aren't going anywhere till they decide to call it quits.
At least at the airlines you know your time off is your time from day 1. Especially anything short notice like sick days. There's zero of the back and forth. 30 second call to scheduling and they go to the next guy on the list.
