What IFR time counts for an IFR rating

[bwgilchrist]

Been having a discussion with my IFR instructor as to what hours count for the IFR time needed for a flight test

The 50 xc is straight forward, no issues there.

The max 20 hrs sim is straight forward.

Where we are disagreeing is the 40 hrs total.

I have a bunch of hours that I did in my PPL, so carried in a bunch of time under the hood ( 15 hrs). My instructor is telling me ( which is coming from the Chief instructor) that simulated IFR time does not count against IFR time required for an IFR rating. I can't find anything in the CARS to support that. The position is that those hours were not in furtherance of an IFR rating.

But if that's the case, wouldn't that invalidate the ability to acquire hours with an "authorized individual" as opposed to a instructor?

[Conflicting Traffic]

I have a bunch of hours that I did in my PPL, so carried in a bunch of time under the hood ( 15 hrs).

15 hours of hood on the PPL is unusual, but there's nothing wrong with doing it, and the time absolutely counts.

My instructor is telling me ( which is coming from the Chief instructor) that simulated IFR time does not count against IFR time required for an IFR rating.

Whut??

I can't find anything in the CARS to support that.

That's because there's nothing in the CARs to support it.

The position is that those hours were not in furtherance of an IFR rating.

So does that mean that someone who completes a night rating after their PPL but *before* they've decided to pursue a CPL has to do those hours over again? (hint: no).

But if that's the case, wouldn't that invalidate the ability to acquire hours with an "authorized individual" as opposed to a instructor?

The time you flew prior to obtaining your PPL had to be with a flight instructor. SPP privileges don't allow for the carriage of passengers, and the only instructors authorized to train SPP holders are Flight Instructor Rating holders.

Complication: Did you hold an RPP *AND* do the extra time with someone who doesn't hold an instructor rating? I think that time would still be acceptable, but an argument *might* be able to be made that it isn't because you can't add an instrument rating to an RPP. But based on CAR 421.46, I don't think that argument really holds up:

(b) Experience
An applicant shall have completed a minimum of:
(i) 50 hours of cross-country flight as pilot-in-command in aeroplanes or helicopters of which 10 hours must be in the appropriate category; and
(ii) 40 hours of instrument time of which a maximum of 20 hours may be instrument ground time. The 40 hours instrument time shall include a minimum of:
(A) 5 hours of dual instrument flight time acquired from the holder of a flight instructor rating ,
(B) 5 hours in aeroplanes where the applicant is applying for a Group 1, 2 or 3 instrument rating or in helicopters where the applicant is applying for a Group 4 instrument rating,
(C) Fifteen (15) hours of dual instrument flight time provided by a qualified person as specified in section 425.21(9); and
(D) one dual cross-country flight under simulated or actual IMC conditions of a minimum of 100 nautical miles, the flight to be conducted in accordance with an IFR flight plan to include at, two different locations, an instrument approach to minima.

There's no requirement listed here that the training/experience has to be obtained after the PPL is issued or in formal furtherance of an instrument rating. You could get the hours a bit at a time during annual proficiency flights and after 20 years decide to get an instrument rating. The time all counts.

[bwgilchrist]

Yeah, I'm kind of an odd duck when it comes to my ratings ( I'm one of those people that completed a night rating prior to CPL).

The 14.5 is carry in, and in my haste I didn't break that out:

10.6 from my PPL
2.7 was as part of my night rating
1.2 is with a qualified individual ( post PPL and night rating)

I think their argument is that the instrument time in the PPL is essentially unusual attitudes vs. actual IFR flying, so it's not really the stuff you're working on in the IFR rating. But even if that was the case, the instrument time in the night rating included at least one approach to minimums, so that should count.

Thanks for the feedback.

[ruffdeezy]

instrument time is either - simulated (hood), IMC conditions on an IFR flight, or simulator
the 40 hours can be either of those - 20 max simulator
I'm not an instructor but I don't think there is much training conducted in IMC conditions so it is probably all hood time.

[goldeneagle]

I'm not an instructor but I don't think there is much training conducted in IMC conditions so it is probably all hood time.

Back in the day when I taught for an IFR school, most of the training done during the winter was in IMC. That was back in the 80's, dunno how various schools do it today, but I always felt if a student had never seen the inside of a cloud, then you were doing them a dis-service completing an instrument rating.

[Conflicting Traffic]

I think their argument is that the instrument time in the PPL is essentially unusual attitudes vs. actual IFR flying, so it's not really the stuff you're working on in the IFR rating. But even if that was the case, the instrument time in the night rating included at least one approach to minimums, so that should count.

It really doesn't matter. The instrument time conducted during the PPL counts toward the 40 h requirements for the IFR. The fact that it's basic attitude flying doesn't matter. You have to start somewhere. If you can't keep the airplane right-side-up, you aren't flying any approaches to minimums. Learning the foundational attitude flying is *PART OF* the IFR. It all counts.

Basic attitude flying is absolutely assessed during an IFR ride or IPC, and unusual attitudes are part of the IPC.

If they are saying that you need more training to be ready for the ride, and they aren't ready to recommend you, that's a different conversation. But if they are really trying to tell you that these hours somehow magically don't count, they're either milking you or they don't know what they're talking about. Either way, you should seriously consider changing schools.

[digits_]

that simulated IFR time does not count against IFR time required for an IFR rating.

Lol. Does that mean that all their students fly 40 hours in actual IMC? Would be nice, but I highly doubt it....