Poor service

[Mr. North]

Let me start by saying there are lots of great controllers out there, and I sincerely appreciate all the work you do. So I'm not trying to pick on anyone in particular but I'd like to get a better understanding as to why service has deteriorated so much post covid?

For example.. Numerous times heading into YVR. Area controllers tell me to slow down or speed up, only to switch to arrival and they tell me to do the complete opposite? WTF?

Also YVR (but other airports guilty of it too), why is Tower not a sterile freq? Couple times now I'm short final 08L or 26R, waiting for clearance and the controller is issuing IFR clearance or taxi instructions to Air China?! Again, WTF?! On one occasion we very nearly went around. It's an accident waiting to happen imo.

Overall general flight handling has deteriorated in the last few years. Fly into the US it's a totally different world (they move metal). Why? Wasn't always like this...

I guess I'm just a little frustrated. We're constantly under surveillance, if we make a mistake, we get CADORed. But I file a company safety report, it gets shelved..

[wordstwice]

Simply answer…..staffing

YVR tower and Terminal is so short staffed they are forced to work multiple frequencies at once and implement constant delays. It’s so bad that at times there is a concern that there won’t be anyone available to work on some shifts. This summer will be challenging to say the least.

And before someone jumps in here, this isn’t a situation of controllers calling in sick or doing work action etc etc. this is a dire situation of staff shortage with no end in sight. Blame Nav Canada for there lack of training and firing trainees during covid and now everyone, airlines especially, are paying the price.

I know many of my friends in YVR who are working the maximum allowable hours and it’s still not enough to bridge the staffing gap. Unfortunately it’s all across the country, here in YYZ it’s very similar but not as bad as YVR.

[nvcatc]

.

[goingnowherefast]

I guess I'm just a little frustrated. We're constantly under surveillance, if we make a mistake, we get CADORed. But I file a company safety report, it gets shelved..

Bit of a decision tree, so follow along appropriately and see if an event is reportable:
https://tc.canada.ca/en/aviation/operat ... ty#report

Enough issues and maybe the bean counters that run NavCanada will be embarrassed into doing something about it.

It's quite frustrating when Nav Canada is turning into an air navigation service denier. Really, there's a lot in common with Boeing big wigs and accountant types running the show. Only different is Boeing pushed crap airplanes out the door. NavCanada gets away with denying service that is already paid for (look at the plethora of NOTAMs pushing planes away from certain types of airspace).

[Big Pistons Forever]

I feel for the controllers as they are so short handed they have continually have too much to do into much airspace. The one little bit of good news is since Nav Canada is run by and for the airlines and when ATC delays affect their bottom line they care. Apparently they are putting a lot of pressure on Nav Canada to fix their very broken training system. That will help in the long term but there is no relief in sight for at least 2 years

Another aspect of the problem is the effect of having all the zero to hero brand new pilots, especially at the regionals. In the old days when there was lots of experience in the cockpit the controllers could expect the crews to do what they were told and make things work. Not long ago I ended up with a significant delaying vector because the RJ ahead would not take a visual on a day with 30 mile vis below a 4000 foot stratus layer, and instead insisted on joining the ILS at a fix that results in a 14 mile final. The controller apologized for not getting me in ahead of the RJ because he didn't slow down enough to make it work.

[Big Pistons Forever]

I feel for the controllers as they are so short handed they have continually have too much to do in too much airspace. The one little bit of good news is since Nav Canada is run by and for the airlines and when ATC delays affect their bottom line they care. Apparently they are putting a lot of pressure on Nav Canada to fix their very broken training system. That will help in the long term but there is no relief in sight for at least 2 years

Another aspect of the problem is the effect of having all the zero to hero brand new pilots, especially at the regionals. In the old days when there was lots of experience in the cockpit the controllers could expect the crews to do what they were told and make things work. Not long ago I ended up with a significant delaying vector because the RJ ahead would not take a visual on a day with 30 mile vis below a 4000 foot stratus layer, and instead insisted on joining the ILS at a fix that results in a 14 mile final. The controller apologized for not getting me in ahead of the RJ because he didn't slow down enough to make it work.

[digits_]

Ah yes of course. It all boils down to the -assumed- low time pilots screwing up the ATC traffic flow

[CaptDukeNukem]

Trudeau should increase the navcan fees. That’ll solve the problem. He guarantees it.

[kevenv]

Trudeau should increase the navcan fees. That’ll solve the problem. He guarantees it.

What does Trudeau have to do with Navcan fees?

[goingnowherefast]

Pretty sure that was political sarcasm.

[rookiepilot]

This is not post Covid. Its always been this way from my experience back to 2010 or so, anyway.


Few Anecdotes:
YVR terminal ask for FF in Fraser Valley from Abbotsford to Pitt Meadows so I don’t kill myself in a midair with a student.
“Stay out of the airspace. Don’t call us”. I listen: Silence on the frequency.

Winnipeg Terminal, few years earlier. Ditto. Similar encounter. Had to go around it.

Ottawa Terminal, IFR, asking for a clearance or something that was denied: “you know, we are extremely busy airspace” (when I inquired)

NY Approach: “cleared direct XXX”. Also, “Cleared down the Hudson river corridor for a visual tour, (will provide traffic advisories)

Washington Center: (request to stay higher longer due to weather). “Approved, let us know when you’re ready to start down, looks good in another 5 miles on our radar).

I will say YYZ has always been excellent. If they can handle all their traffic , there is zero excuse for Winnipeg or Ottawa not to.

Enough excuses. I don’t care. Fix it. Work harder. Show up on nice days in Vancouver for work and not go to the beach (or get fired).

I have been told more than once this is an issue in YVR. Sick day call ins spike like crazy on nice sunny days.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Low point for me was a nice VFR day on the West Coast. Flight is a MEIFR flight test. Got a training slot the night before, flight plan accepted into the system with a Regs Number and with engines running call for the clearance. Clearance comes back very apologetically saying the ACC has cancelled the clearance, because they are "too busy"

We shut down and I phone the YVR IFR desk and get told sorry nothing available today "maybe tomorrow" AYFK

[rookiepilot]

nice VFR day on the West Coast.

🏝🏖
Working is for suckers, apparently
Oh, forgot ⛷

[kevenv]

Pretty sure that was political sarcasm.

Pretty weak....

[goingnowherefast]

Doing long flights in a turboprop near the limit of range. "FL250 denied, maintain 17000 in controlled airspace". Now we're stuck ripping along through uncontrolled airspace for hundreds of miles at 17000. Fuel burn is up, not sure if we're going to make it with the higher fuel burn. I ask again 20 minutes later when the frequency is quiet and get a snarky response and a no. Maybe that controller is working multiple frequencies, I dunno. The extra several hundred pounds we're burning down low is sure my problem.

Same problem coming the other way once. 150 miles from the destination, and the class B airspace. They're going to have to deal with us anyway. Embedded TCUs/ACCs ahead, but topped around 200. WX radar fails. There's no way I'm going to fly straight through a line of embedded TCUs at 16000 when we can go to FL220 and be above it and see the tops above the layer. Another snarky denial of the request. Explain the problem, bit of a back and forth arguing "I don't see anything on my end". Of course not, you always complain how your weather radar sucks, but my eyes are working until we enter the embedded crap. Begrudgingly let us up to FL220.

[mel gibson]

Was going to post about how below average the ATC is in Vancouver and found this thread right away.
Flow control on every flight? This puts severe stress on operators to meet these times.
Airlines need to stop flying to Vancouver, period.
Can NavCanada bring in controllers from other regions for the summer?

[goingnowherefast]

Short answer, no. There's quite a bit of region specific training.

[‘Bob’]

Doing long flights in a turboprop near the limit of range. "FL250 denied, maintain 17000 in controlled airspace". Now we're stuck ripping along through uncontrolled airspace for hundreds of miles at 17000. Fuel burn is up, not sure if we're going to make it with the higher fuel burn. I ask again 20 minutes later when the frequency is quiet and get a snarky response and a no. Maybe that controller is working multiple frequencies, I dunno. The extra several hundred pounds we're burning down low is sure my problem.

Same problem coming the other way once. 150 miles from the destination, and the class B airspace. They're going to have to deal with us anyway. Embedded TCUs/ACCs ahead, but topped around 200. WX radar fails. There's no way I'm going to fly straight through a line of embedded TCUs at 16000 when we can go to FL220 and be above it and see the tops above the layer. Another snarky denial of the request. Explain the problem, bit of a back and forth arguing "I don't see anything on my end". Of course not, you always complain how your weather radar sucks, but my eyes are working until we enter the embedded crap. Begrudgingly let us up to FL220.

Why didn’t you turn around if you were worried about fuel or weather?

Especially with the penchant of turboprops running out of fuel lately.

I wouldn’t even think twice. File an SMS report. Done. A whole pile of not my problem.

A lot of problems in aviation whether it be wages or maintenance or icing or ATC are because people continue to “make it work” rather than putting their foot down.

[goingnowherefast]

Doing long flights in a turboprop near the limit of range. "FL250 denied, maintain 17000 in controlled airspace". Now we're stuck ripping along through uncontrolled airspace for hundreds of miles at 17000. Fuel burn is up, not sure if we're going to make it with the higher fuel burn. I ask again 20 minutes later when the frequency is quiet and get a snarky response and a no. Maybe that controller is working multiple frequencies, I dunno. The extra several hundred pounds we're burning down low is sure my problem.

Same problem coming the other way once. 150 miles from the destination, and the class B airspace. They're going to have to deal with us anyway. Embedded TCUs/ACCs ahead, but topped around 200. WX radar fails. There's no way I'm going to fly straight through a line of embedded TCUs at 16000 when we can go to FL220 and be above it and see the tops above the layer. Another snarky denial of the request. Explain the problem, bit of a back and forth arguing "I don't see anything on my end". Of course not, you always complain how your weather radar sucks, but my eyes are working until we enter the embedded crap. Begrudgingly let us up to FL220.

Why didn’t you turn around if you were worried about fuel or weather?

Especially with the penchant of turboprops running out of fuel lately.

I wouldn’t even think twice. File an SMS report. Done. A whole pile of not my problem.

A lot of problems in aviation whether it be wages or maintenance or icing or ATC are because people continue to “make it work” rather than putting their foot down.

IFR fuel reserves +20 minutes turned into IFR reserves + ~2 minutes. Enough to make a smart captain nervous, but no, we weren't gonna run out.

Why would I divert an airplane when I could work out a solution to the wx radar problem with the controller? Sure the controller was grumpy and rude, but that's a him problem. It wouldn't be very responsible to have done a diversion because I'm too lazy to clearly articulate the issue to the controller.

Both my problems are because of poor service from NavCanada and primarily their management's inability to ensure adequate capacity through the training program. It very much became my problem and I looked for legal and safe alternatives in an attempt to avoid a diversion. Don't worry, I very much considered diverting as well.

The term "make it work" implies breaking some rules to "get 'er done". I appreciate the concern, and it is a very real issue with our industry. Especially in the north and 703 level. NavCanada's poor service is just adding more pressures to break the rules and "make it work". NavCanada management aren't the ones who go back to base and get yelled at by the chief pilot or DFO (I'm also the type who yells back at pushy management).

NavCanada publishes their Corperate Social Responsibilities: https://www.navcanada.ca/en/corporate/c ... ility.aspx

Looking at events like this, one can see they don't take their "social responsibilities" very seriously. More like minimum cost to deliver a barely viable air navigation service. Increasing their consumers fuel consumption and GHG emissions.

[rookiepilot]

Doing long flights in a turboprop near the limit of range. "FL250 denied, maintain 17000 in controlled airspace". Now we're stuck ripping along through uncontrolled airspace for hundreds of miles at 17000. Fuel burn is up, not sure if we're going to make it with the higher fuel burn. I ask again 20 minutes later when the frequency is quiet and get a snarky response and a no. Maybe that controller is working multiple frequencies, I dunno. The extra several hundred pounds we're burning down low is sure my problem.

Same problem coming the other way once. 150 miles from the destination, and the class B airspace. They're going to have to deal with us anyway. Embedded TCUs/ACCs ahead, but topped around 200. WX radar fails. There's no way I'm going to fly straight through a line of embedded TCUs at 16000 when we can go to FL220 and be above it and see the tops above the layer. Another snarky denial of the request. Explain the problem, bit of a back and forth arguing "I don't see anything on my end". Of course not, you always complain how your weather radar sucks, but my eyes are working until we enter the embedded crap. Begrudgingly let us up to FL220.

Why didn’t you turn around if you were worried about fuel or weather?

Especially with the penchant of turboprops running out of fuel lately.

I wouldn’t even think twice. File an SMS report. Done. A whole pile of not my problem.

A lot of problems in aviation whether it be wages or maintenance or icing or ATC are because people continue to “make it work” rather than putting their foot down.

IFR fuel reserves +20 minutes turned into IFR reserves + ~2 minutes. Enough to make a smart captain nervous, but no, we weren't gonna run out.

Why would I divert an airplane when I could work out a solution to the wx radar problem with the controller? Sure the controller was grumpy and rude, but that's a him problem. It wouldn't be very responsible to have done a diversion because I'm too lazy to clearly articulate the issue to the controller.

Both my problems are because of poor service from NavCanada and primarily their management's inability to ensure adequate capacity through the training program. It very much became my problem and I looked for legal and safe alternatives in an attempt to avoid a diversion. Don't worry, I very much considered diverting as well.

The term "make it work" implies breaking some rules to "get 'er done". I appreciate the concern, and it is a very real issue with our industry. Especially in the north and 703 level. NavCanada's poor service is just adding more pressures to break the rules and "make it work". NavCanada management aren't the ones who go back to base and get yelled at by the chief pilot or DFO (I'm also the type who yells back at pushy management).

NavCanada publishes their Corperate Social Responsibilities: https://www.navcanada.ca/en/corporate/c ... ility.aspx

Looking at events like this, one can see they don't take their "social responsibilities" very seriously. More like minimum cost to deliver a barely viable air navigation service. Increasing their consumers fuel consumption and GHG emissions.

Well said.

I find it difficult to understand why Nav Canada always has the excuse we are too busy in these dead regions, when the Americans can move countless multiples of of Canadas traffic in NY, Florida, ect, so can Europe.

The problem is our country, like in so many other things, as well.

[nvcatc]

I find it difficult to understand why Nav Canada always has the excuse we are too busy in these dead regions, when the Americans can move countless multiples of of Canadas traffic in NY, Florida, ect, so can Europe.

Don’t know how things run in Europe, but in busy FAA sectors, they have 2 people per position where Nav Canada usually only has one. They also have mandatory OT and mandatory 6 day work weeks to keep capacity going. American controllers are very good at what they do, but they have a punishing schedule in order to make things run with their similar staffing problem. NavCanada made a mistake not resuming training much earlier than they did, but we’re here now and the controllers we have are doing the best they can. You can’t snap your fingers and get new controllers over night. Would you rather we get regularly forced into mandatory OT as well? For the safety of the flying public, and to protect our own licenses, we have to restrict capacity in certain sectors to not overload them.

[‘Bob’]

I find it difficult to understand why Nav Canada always has the excuse we are too busy in these dead regions, when the Americans can move countless multiples of of Canadas traffic in NY, Florida, ect, so can Europe.

Don’t know how things run in Europe, but in busy FAA sectors, they have 2 people per position where Nav Canada usually only has one. They also have mandatory OT and mandatory 6 day work weeks to keep capacity going. American controllers are very good at what they do, but they have a punishing schedule in order to make things run with their similar staffing problem. NavCanada made a mistake not resuming training much earlier than they did, but we’re here now and the controllers we have are doing the best they can. You can’t snap your fingers and get new controllers over night. Would you rather we get regularly forced into mandatory OT as well? For the safety of the flying public, and to protect our own licenses, we have to restrict capacity in certain sectors to not overload them.

This was a problem before COVID.

[goingnowherefast]

The issue isn't with the individual controllers on the floor. When I heard they paused hiring in 2020, I knew it was going to create a mess. They were already short in 2019, so the covid lull should have been a great time to catch up on training and staffing. It takes several years to take someone from the street, hire them, train them and become fully qualified. We are now feeling the consequences of NavCanada management's poor foresight from 2020/2021/2022. They even laid off controllers in 2020!

If I ran the world, these NavCanada managers and executives would be paying for the additional fuel burned out or their bonuses. It didn't take a crystal ball to realize that covid would have a recovery and we'd need these wonderful trained professionals we call ATC controllers.

[Hangry]

Canadian ATC is atrocious. This isn’t anything new. Covid aside. The service has been terrible for a long time.

Fly anywhere else on the globe, especially America and this is glaringly obvious.

Remember though. Just be a good Canadian and throw your hands up and say “it is the way it is”. Just like every other useless government agency.

Oh Canada.

Yay

[nvcatc]

Canadian ATC is atrocious. This isn’t anything new. Covid aside. The service has been terrible for a long time.

Fly anywhere else on the globe, especially America and this is glaringly obvious.

Remember though. Just be a good Canadian and throw your hands up and say “it is the way it is”. Just like every other useless government agency.

Oh Canada.

Yay

What would you like the individual controllers to do about it? One person can only work so much traffic. We don't have the staffing to double up like the US does when it gets busy. We don't have the staffing to always split sectors when we need. One person can only do so much. Controllers aren't responsible for the short staffing situation that we're in. We're training as much as we can, but it's a slow process.