“Pilots are leaving” — ALPA

[‘Bob’]

Getting bombarded by these ads online (yes.. I’m technologically illiterate and don’t have an ad blocker).

How much of this is true other than retirement attrition and the very few who manage to leave the country?

[newlygrounded]

Getting bombarded by these ads online (yes.. I’m technologically illiterate and don’t have an ad blocker).

How much of this is true other than retirement attrition and the very few who manage to leave the country?

My take has always been (sadly) The junior guys who can move easily aren't wanted or able to justify a visa. The really talented guys (unless they marry an American) are probably going to be comfortable enough here for the most part and not going to want to start from scratch.

[itsgrosswhatinet]

Weird, another thread in the Air Canada forum trying to negate ALPA's narrative.

I'm a medium guy, experienced and poor. I'll leave at a moment's notice. I have no mortgage, can't afford it. I can be working in another country next week with no financial burden in Canada. I own nothing.

[crashpadcommute]

Weird, another thread in the Air Canada forum trying to negate ALPA's narrative.

I'm a medium guy, experienced and poor. I'll leave at a moment's notice. I have no mortgage, can't afford it. I can be working in another country next week with no financial burden in Canada. I own nothing.

Bob is a groomed shill

Best to ignore his out of touch rhetoric

[lownslow]

A non-zero number continue to resign* but you’ll have to ask for yourself where they’re going. Leaving for any reason should be notable, we’ve seen time and again that no one wants to be a martyr so there’s definitely a greener pasture out there somewhere.

*termination, medical, retirement, death, etc. all use different codes from resignation so it’s definitely the latter.

[altiplano]

Resignations are currently running at the rate of 2 - 3 per month.

This was a position that used to be a lifetime career and had zero resignations.

[cdnavater]

Resignations are currently running at the rate of 2 - 3 per month.

This was a position that used to be a lifetime career and had zero resignations.

Wow, that’s not nothing!

[Old fella]

Resignations are currently running at the rate of 2 - 3 per month.

This was a position that used to be a lifetime career and had zero resignations.

Wow, that’s not nothing!

Wow… I’ll say. Assuming that’s new hire people, certainly plenty of training resources that is non-recoverable. One would think the high end AC bright lights would cotton on , then again I know SFA. The minimum walk in new hire salary should be 150K or above for the stature of Air Canada as the biggest Canadian airline that provides services worldwide.

[itsgrosswhatinet]

I mean for $1900 and two weeks of your time you can be driving a bus for more money. It doesn't have to be another pilot job.

[cdnavater]

I mean for $1900 and two weeks of your time you can be driving a bus for more money. It doesn't have to be another pilot job.

Sure but that’s temporary, not much upside after that. What do you do with your 100,000+ pilot training?

[itsgrosswhatinet]

I mean for $1900 and two weeks of your time you can be driving a bus for more money. It doesn't have to be another pilot job.

Sure but that’s temporary, not much upside after that. What do you do with your 100,000+ pilot training?

Buy an airplane and start a business if you want to stay in aviation. Most of my friends that left aviation for other careers ended up starting non-aviation businesses though. They had seen enough.

[Tbayer2021]

I could be wrong, but I doubt 2-3 departures a month is giving the company anything to be concerned about.

[goingnowherefast]

I could be wrong, but I doubt 2-3 departures a month is giving the company anything to be concerned about.

How many are actually showing up in groundschools? 30/month?

That's 8% of their hiring efforts that are basically pissing into the wind. Pretty miserable ROI.

[Dockjock]

IMG_0334.jpeg (114.28 KiB) Viewed 5930 times

[RippleRock]

Getting bombarded by these ads online (yes.. I’m technologically illiterate and don’t have an ad blocker).

How much of this is true other than retirement attrition and the very few who manage to leave the country?

How about....WHO CARES?

United's resume piles are full, so are Delta's, so are Americans. US Legacy gains were not driven by a shortage of applicants and likely never will be. The proof is the no Legacy US carrier offers a financial incentive over any other to attract talent. Why should they, as it isn't necessary.

Air Canada pilot wages and working conditions, like our US counterparts, will be determined by our ability to "value ourselves" and take a stand defending that value. Nothing more, nothing less.

It isn't any more complicated than that. It doesn't need to be.

[ashtray]

Resignations are currently running at the rate of 2 - 3 per month.

This was a position that used to be a lifetime career and had zero resignations.

Definitely not true. Pilots left AC in the 1960s, 1970s and 1980s, 1990s, 2000s, etc. I recall pilots coming to Air Canada in late 1970s and mid-1980s, and leaving for Wardair for reasons of higher starting salary and faster progression to the LS, only to end up back at AC a few years later with a significant loss in seniority. One of those pilots had been at AC for about seven years. Some a few short months. The mantra back then was, I've been offered the space shuttle, I'll take it until Wardair offers me a job.

[Tbayer2021]

Resignations are currently running at the rate of 2 - 3 per month.

This was a position that used to be a lifetime career and had zero resignations.

Definitely not true. Pilots left AC in the 1960s, 1970s and 1980s, 1990s, 2000s, etc. I recall pilots coming to Air Canada in late 1970s and mid-1980s, and leaving for Wardair for reasons of higher starting salary and faster progression to the LS, only to end up back at AC a few years later with a significant loss in seniority. One of those pilots had been at AC for about seven years. Some a few short months. The mantra back then was, I've been offered the space shuttle, I'll take it until Wardair offers me a job.

Didn't AC start the cruise relief pilot program because too many pilots were bidding RP to get a 777 type and bugger off to the Middle east or Asia? Honestly blows my mind away how so many put AC on a pedestal.

[fixnfly]

Resignations are currently running at the rate of 2 - 3 per month.

This was a position that used to be a lifetime career and had zero resignations.

Definitely not true. Pilots left AC in the 1960s, 1970s and 1980s, 1990s, 2000s, etc.

I believe that's also why they introduced the relief pilot position? In order to force people to stay with the company rather than allowing them to take their newly minted A330 or B777 type rating to Asia/Middle East/US for better working conditions and compensation.

[Man_in_the_sky]

I could be wrong, but I doubt 2-3 departures a month is giving the company anything to be concerned about.

36 a year is basicly a PIT course

[Tbayer2021]

I could be wrong, but I doubt 2-3 departures a month is giving the company anything to be concerned about.

36 a year is basicly a PIT course

I'll say it again, maybe I'm wrong. I just don't think that's significant to a company that made and operating profit of 2.3B last year.

[Bede]

It isn't any more complicated than that. It doesn't need to be.

Actually it's a lot more complicated than that.

[RippleRock]

It isn't any more complicated than that. It doesn't need to be.

Actually it's a lot more complicated than that.

You're free to disagree Bede, but back it up.

Pilots like to complicate things and look deeper than needed. It's part of our decision making DNA. They believe their costs to the airline are "variable" and maluable. We are driven by emotion during negotiations, and rarely consider logic and facts alone, unlike when we are at the controls.

The thing is, no one is replacing 5300 pilots at this operation as it is impossible. Legislation is being brought forward to make "temporary workers" used to break strikes illegal.....supported by all four Federal parties. If we choose to "down tools", it's a "full stop" until told otherwise.

Our Company manages to match Executive compensation nearly "to the dollar" with their American counterparts. They use them as a direct comparitor in multiple documents, while we are being sidelined.


Care to enlighten us on how much "more complicated" it is than just "setting the park brake" when it's 100% legal to do so? Please avoid the "management bafflegab" that is rife during negotiations.

[Bede]

Our Company manages to match Executive compensation nearly "to the dollar" with their American counterparts. They use them as a direct comparitor in multiple documents, while we are being sidelined.

Of course they do - as should we. The difference is that they've been successful whereas we have not.

Care to enlighten us on how much "more complicated" it is than just "setting the park brake" when it's 100% legal to do so? Please avoid the "management bafflegab" that is rife during negotiations.

I think that would likely take a week to explain hence why ALPA puts on week long negotiating seminars.

I'll make a brief point: A few years ago, I was sitting in an ALPA negotiating course. Day 1, the guy conducting the seminar starts the course by asking, "who here thinks that with enough pilot unity, you can force management to bend to your demands?" I tentatively raised my hand as did most of the other participants. "Well, you're wrong. Pilot unity is important, but, economic factors play at least as much of a role in securing a solid agreement." This is from a guy who's likely negotiated dozens of ALPA contracts in Canada and the US for decades.

Look, both of us agree that pilots should be better compensated for our services, but we differ on strategy and tactics. The overwhelming sentiment on this board is that Canadian pilots aren't compensated as well as US pilots because we lack balls, or whatever, to force a strike until management capitulates. This is incorrect. Based on my analysis, I attribute the majority of our underwhelming compensation on the federal government's airports policy. The money that should be available for airline earnings and therefore available to bargain for is subsumed into government coffers in the form of airport rents.

[BTD]

The RP position was a full type rating until just a few years ago. And in the time that the change has taken effect, all FO positions are new hire spots, including 777, 787, A330. So one can still get the type rating and jump ship right away.

The RP position never kept anyone from leaving.

[itsgrosswhatinet]

I did my CN train conductor application today. It's a 7 week paid course with accommodations and meals paid for.