Okay everyone, this should make for a good, long topic (and one thats probably already been discussed on numerous occasions, so sorry).
So I've got another year of high school, and after that, there are just sooo many options available. For the record, I do intend to earn some kind of 4yr degree anyway, but the big question, how important is it to have a college degree, and how influential will it be as far as getting hired by major carriers/everything in between??
Aviation/Non-aviation degree??
Necessary to go to a real aviation school, or for example, would Juan Air or VFC suffice??
Fire away
Importance of having a degree
Moderators: North Shore, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, Right Seat Captain, lilfssister
-
Ramp Monkey YYJ
- Rank 1
- Posts: 19
- Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2006 6:13 pm
Get a degree in whatever you want. Most places give preference to those who "hold a degree OR aviation diploma". So they seem a bout equal as far as hiring goes. But lets be honest... which one is going to be the most useful if you ever find yourself in a position where you can't fly (say you're in an accident or something... lose your medical for one of a million reasons)? An aviation diploma? Nuh huh. I would go as far as saying that would be utterly useless if you can't fly. Not any more useful than experience in the industry and good contacts anyway.
My point: broaden your horizons when it comes to education. Flight training is flight training and you'll still have the same 200 hour CPL as everyone else. If you want to go to school, pick whatever you want to take. Having a degree IS useful (of course some more than others, but an education is a valuable thing to have), whether its in aeronautical engineering or basket weaving.
My point: broaden your horizons when it comes to education. Flight training is flight training and you'll still have the same 200 hour CPL as everyone else. If you want to go to school, pick whatever you want to take. Having a degree IS useful (of course some more than others, but an education is a valuable thing to have), whether its in aeronautical engineering or basket weaving.
"Young man, was that your landing or were we just shot down?"
-
wallypilot
- Rank (9)
- Posts: 1646
- Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2004 9:59 pm
- Location: The Best Coast
Do a degree that interests you and that may be useful. I did a Bachelor of Commerce at UBC, and I did my flight training independent of any college program. If all you ever want to do is fly airplanes, then a degree is only useful as a fallback if you can't fly. If you have other aspirations, like running your own operation after some years a driver, then a business degree is excellent. An arts degree majoring in a major language is good too, like French, Spanish, or Chinese.
As previous posters have said, the aviation diploma is a waste of money, IMHO. Get a real degree in something outside of aviation that interests you. Plus, university is really fun. Some of the best years of my life. I did my private right after high school to see if the flying thing was for me. I finished my degree when i was 23, then did my commercial license and was working by 25. It was tough at first, when I first had my CPL because the flying jobs out there were such low pay, if there were any, because i could just take a job at any point, with my business degree paying 40K. So, i instructed and also worked a good paying job until I got a decent full time flying job a year or so later. The degree gives you options and a well rounded background, whichever program you choose. Good luck!
As previous posters have said, the aviation diploma is a waste of money, IMHO. Get a real degree in something outside of aviation that interests you. Plus, university is really fun. Some of the best years of my life. I did my private right after high school to see if the flying thing was for me. I finished my degree when i was 23, then did my commercial license and was working by 25. It was tough at first, when I first had my CPL because the flying jobs out there were such low pay, if there were any, because i could just take a job at any point, with my business degree paying 40K. So, i instructed and also worked a good paying job until I got a decent full time flying job a year or so later. The degree gives you options and a well rounded background, whichever program you choose. Good luck!
The previous posts are pretty much bang on, but I think I can offer you something from a different perspective. Like you I looked at the aviation colleges and was quite keen until I went to their seminars. Having grown up in an aviation family I saw the BS pretty quickly. At the time I never really considered university as I wanted to work in aviation. I then headed off to a college and did the avionics program and have not looked back since.
After college I went on to get into flying but the avionics biz really took off for me and I got work overseas. Now the money is in the bank and I intend on increasing my flying time.
What I recommend to you from my perspective is to get the degree, but not just any degree. Get an engineering degree or second best a business degree. If you are really motivated you can do the AME course through correspondence at http://www.educationdirect.com while you finish university. Getting a BA in history would be interesting but wont do you much good in aviation. A degree in engineering will go a long way for you, or a biz degree.
As another poster pointed out the first few years as a pilot are low wages. Being an AME apprentice will help you, or having a job in the engineering field will offer some additional cash flow.
After college I went on to get into flying but the avionics biz really took off for me and I got work overseas. Now the money is in the bank and I intend on increasing my flying time.
What I recommend to you from my perspective is to get the degree, but not just any degree. Get an engineering degree or second best a business degree. If you are really motivated you can do the AME course through correspondence at http://www.educationdirect.com while you finish university. Getting a BA in history would be interesting but wont do you much good in aviation. A degree in engineering will go a long way for you, or a biz degree.
As another poster pointed out the first few years as a pilot are low wages. Being an AME apprentice will help you, or having a job in the engineering field will offer some additional cash flow.
Wtf is an engineering degree gonna do for you in aviation? I know AC likes it, and it can provide a decent job making good coin when you get laid off, but other than that I thought it was viewed pretty much the same as any other degree by those in aviation. I'm really interested in your comment because I'm about to get an engineering degree 
-
TopperHarley
- Rank (9)
- Posts: 1870
- Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2004 2:56 pm
Engineering degrees tend to be highly regarded, as the course load tends to be very high and demanding. Engineers also tend to be very technically-inclined, so perhaps *some* airlines will look at this and assume, "this guy must be pretty damn smart if he has an engineering degree!"
Of course, there's exceptions to every rule. Many pilots out there with degrees (including eng. degrees) may not be the brightest or best pilots in the world. I'm sure there's also many pilots out there with high school and who are very smart.
Personally, I would definetly recommend some level of higher education, be it a degree or a trade. Do something that interests you, and don't worry whether or not airlines will regard it as positive, but do it because you can see yourself doing this if the flying job doesn't work out.
Keep in mind that having a higher level of education will for the most part, only matter to the larger airlines. The smaller companies really don't give a shit. If you're planning on making a career in the states, then having a degree is a must for the majors. In Canada, it doesn't seem to carry as much clout, but it still does add something to the resume and it will definetly set you apart from others.
So if you can afford it, get some education, have some fun, learn a few other languages on the side, and you'll really stand out from the crowd.
Of course, there's exceptions to every rule. Many pilots out there with degrees (including eng. degrees) may not be the brightest or best pilots in the world. I'm sure there's also many pilots out there with high school and who are very smart.
Personally, I would definetly recommend some level of higher education, be it a degree or a trade. Do something that interests you, and don't worry whether or not airlines will regard it as positive, but do it because you can see yourself doing this if the flying job doesn't work out.
Keep in mind that having a higher level of education will for the most part, only matter to the larger airlines. The smaller companies really don't give a shit. If you're planning on making a career in the states, then having a degree is a must for the majors. In Canada, it doesn't seem to carry as much clout, but it still does add something to the resume and it will definetly set you apart from others.
So if you can afford it, get some education, have some fun, learn a few other languages on the side, and you'll really stand out from the crowd.
"Never travel faster than your guardian angel can fly." - Mother Theresa
"Wtf is an engineering degree gonna do for you in aviation?"
Wow where to begin with the IGNORANCE in that statement. Airplanes are machines built by engineers and maintained by technicians. Having one foot in each world WILL add to your knowledge, abilities, and employability!
Knowledge is always useful. Having an electrical engineering degree, if nothing else, will give you a huge edge in learning systems over someone with no technical knowledge. Same for a mechancial and aerospace engineering degree.
If your goal is only AC, then you will get a simplified systems manual the jist of which is, push button - this happens.
I have come across some who have aerospace engineering degree's and are employed in flight test programs and other projects beyong watching the AP fly me from here to there.
If international work interests you an engineering degree will definitely be an advantage. Of course a business degree also opens doors as well. The overall point being that something other than a commercial is an asset and something applied to aviation, such as an AME, engineering or business degree is a great asset.
Wow where to begin with the IGNORANCE in that statement. Airplanes are machines built by engineers and maintained by technicians. Having one foot in each world WILL add to your knowledge, abilities, and employability!
Knowledge is always useful. Having an electrical engineering degree, if nothing else, will give you a huge edge in learning systems over someone with no technical knowledge. Same for a mechancial and aerospace engineering degree.
If your goal is only AC, then you will get a simplified systems manual the jist of which is, push button - this happens.
I have come across some who have aerospace engineering degree's and are employed in flight test programs and other projects beyong watching the AP fly me from here to there.
If international work interests you an engineering degree will definitely be an advantage. Of course a business degree also opens doors as well. The overall point being that something other than a commercial is an asset and something applied to aviation, such as an AME, engineering or business degree is a great asset.
I wouldn’t limit arts to a business degree however, there are lots of other things one can study that could be VERY useful; Economics, Political Science, Law etc…. very specialized when applied to aviation, but specialization is what people need in the job market these days…
Hrm, okay maybe I'm underrating my own mech eng. education, but I certainly find that when I talk mechanical with an AME, they always blow me out of the water with their knowledge of systems and their techniques for diagnosing problems. Heck even experienced pilots kick my ass when it comes to explaining fairly basic systems. I'm probably a little bit better informed when it comes to explaining the theory behind vibration modes and how to deal with them when designing an airplane, but asides from making me a slightly faster learner how does that make me a better pilot? It's true, I breezed though the groundschool for my private licence, but asides from a piece of paper showing that I can learn quickly, I don't see my degree as terribly useful in aviation. (Aviation-wise I'm mostly aimed towards the bush side of things as I don't really have a desire to push the "go" button and then sit for 10 hours in the stratosphere getting my brain microwaved)
All that said, I am doing my degree for reasons other than wanting to apply it in aviation. I'd love to end up doing test flying, but that is a very long way down the career path, with too many variables to assume thats where I'll end up. Gli77, I'm interested in why you say it's especially applicable to international work. Is a degree just considered more highly overseas than in Canada or what is the story behind that comment?
All that said, I am doing my degree for reasons other than wanting to apply it in aviation. I'd love to end up doing test flying, but that is a very long way down the career path, with too many variables to assume thats where I'll end up. Gli77, I'm interested in why you say it's especially applicable to international work. Is a degree just considered more highly overseas than in Canada or what is the story behind that comment?
lommer I am stunned as I read your post. You are selling yourself WAY too short!!
I gather from your post that you are still a student? If that is the case then that is why pilots are blowing you out of the water for systems. Anyone can spit back things they are told. Engineer's & AME's learn how things actually work, why, how, and in some cases can design or modify systems. You are yet to have the realistic experience. It is true you are learning the theory of things, that is engineering, leaning away from the practical and heavily on the theory. For AME's they lean having on the practical and less on the theory. Your engineering degree is giving you a very solid foundation, I can not stress that enough to you! From my view point an electrical engineering degree is more related to aviation systems, but nonetheless it is all useful.
In fact I would recommend to you to check out http://www.educationdirect.com and look at the aircraft mechanics correspondence course before TC takes that away again. I wish I had done the degree in engineering and if I had I would still do the AME course.
Haivng a strong technical knowledge makes you a better pilot simply because you know beyond the - push button - this happens - systems description. Keep in mind I am referring to a time when you are further into an aviation career with some practical experience. You state you are not into the airline flying, while I have heard AC likes to see a degree that seems irrelevant in your case. For bush flying it may or may not help you much, certainly an AME licence will. What I see from my perspective are guys working in flight test programs with relatively low hours but with strong engineering degrees.
My comment for the international work was driven for work with major airlines, some like it for a pilot, as well as major manufacturers for flight testing. But also keep an eye on the careers page for Cathay, Singapore, Airbus etc. etc. With an engineering degree and a strong aviation background can you can almost go anywhere. Multiple qualifications will get you positions with these companies beyond the usual "GO button" flying.
Also check out the jobs section on aviation.ca, flightinternational.com, aviationjobsearch.com, for different opportunites in engineering.
And of course Bombardier would probably be your best bet. I have met a few pilots from there with strong engineering backgrounds who have great jobs with a foot in both worlds.
All the best to you, look at every angle, you will have many doors open to you. An engineer with a strong practical knowledge is rare in the industry. A pilot with a sound technical knowledge is even more rare! You have the opportunity to achieve all three levels.
I gather from your post that you are still a student? If that is the case then that is why pilots are blowing you out of the water for systems. Anyone can spit back things they are told. Engineer's & AME's learn how things actually work, why, how, and in some cases can design or modify systems. You are yet to have the realistic experience. It is true you are learning the theory of things, that is engineering, leaning away from the practical and heavily on the theory. For AME's they lean having on the practical and less on the theory. Your engineering degree is giving you a very solid foundation, I can not stress that enough to you! From my view point an electrical engineering degree is more related to aviation systems, but nonetheless it is all useful.
In fact I would recommend to you to check out http://www.educationdirect.com and look at the aircraft mechanics correspondence course before TC takes that away again. I wish I had done the degree in engineering and if I had I would still do the AME course.
Haivng a strong technical knowledge makes you a better pilot simply because you know beyond the - push button - this happens - systems description. Keep in mind I am referring to a time when you are further into an aviation career with some practical experience. You state you are not into the airline flying, while I have heard AC likes to see a degree that seems irrelevant in your case. For bush flying it may or may not help you much, certainly an AME licence will. What I see from my perspective are guys working in flight test programs with relatively low hours but with strong engineering degrees.
My comment for the international work was driven for work with major airlines, some like it for a pilot, as well as major manufacturers for flight testing. But also keep an eye on the careers page for Cathay, Singapore, Airbus etc. etc. With an engineering degree and a strong aviation background can you can almost go anywhere. Multiple qualifications will get you positions with these companies beyond the usual "GO button" flying.
Also check out the jobs section on aviation.ca, flightinternational.com, aviationjobsearch.com, for different opportunites in engineering.
And of course Bombardier would probably be your best bet. I have met a few pilots from there with strong engineering backgrounds who have great jobs with a foot in both worlds.
All the best to you, look at every angle, you will have many doors open to you. An engineer with a strong practical knowledge is rare in the industry. A pilot with a sound technical knowledge is even more rare! You have the opportunity to achieve all three levels.
Some people know the theory. Some people are versed in the practicalities. Very few people are adept at both.
I'm an engineer (Queen's 86) with an ATP, and my background in mathematics, physics, chemistry and engineering gives me a real edge over other pilots when it comes to doing something slightly different.
Avionics, for example, which blows away most people, is child's play if you have an engineering background. I fly aerobatics, which is purely applied physics, though precious few practioners could tell you the equations for even potential or kinetic energy. Understanding the underlying physics keeps me alive. Some guys don't, and pay the price.
If all you wanna do is drive a crowd killer around straight and level wearing a polyester uniform with 4 bars on your shoulder, yeah, an engineering degree is overkill.
I'm an engineer (Queen's 86) with an ATP, and my background in mathematics, physics, chemistry and engineering gives me a real edge over other pilots when it comes to doing something slightly different.
Avionics, for example, which blows away most people, is child's play if you have an engineering background. I fly aerobatics, which is purely applied physics, though precious few practioners could tell you the equations for even potential or kinetic energy. Understanding the underlying physics keeps me alive. Some guys don't, and pay the price.
If all you wanna do is drive a crowd killer around straight and level wearing a polyester uniform with 4 bars on your shoulder, yeah, an engineering degree is overkill.
-
mellow_pilot
- Rank 10
- Posts: 2119
- Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2005 1:04 am
- Location: Pilot Purgatory
Until something goes horribly wrong, and you have to think for yourself. Remember folks :Hedley wrote: If all you wanna do is drive a crowd killer around straight and level wearing a polyester uniform with 4 bars on your shoulder, yeah, an engineering degree is overkill.
Dyslexics of the world... UNTIE!
Yep, I'm still a student. I should graduate in 2008 after 5 years of university and by that time I also hope to hold a fresh CPL and I'll have a couple years of ramp work under my belt. Thanks for the link to ICS, I'll definitely take a look at the aircraft mechanics course as it would nicely fill a hole in my experience/knowledge. I'm totally comfortable with where I'm at right now, but I have to admit that I'm a little anxious about the career decisions that will be facing me in a couple years. My biggest fear is that I'll end up in an engineering job behind a desk and suddenly six years will evaporate and I'll have lost my currency as a pilot as well as my ability to take a salary hit and move into aviation full time. I'm willing to work damn hard to make sure that doesn't happen, and I'll probably be headed north once I'm done, but I don't want to totally give up on engineering either...
So yeah, decisions, decisions. And don't take this as bitching either, I'm very lucky to be where I am, I'm just looking ahead so as to make the most of everything.
So yeah, decisions, decisions. And don't take this as bitching either, I'm very lucky to be where I am, I'm just looking ahead so as to make the most of everything.
You can always get an engineering job and work part time as a pilot. Many flight schools need instructors for evenings and weekends. Then when you've got some time under your belt, quit the engineering and get a good flying job.
"Yeah. There is a problem. You...because you're dangerous. You're dangerous and foolish - and that makes you dangerous! Now, let's cut the...crap. We've got a plane to fly. Let's try to be on time, okay?"
~Val Kilmer, Saturday Night Live
~Val Kilmer, Saturday Night Live
-
Graduated_nowwhat?
- Rank 0
- Posts: 1
- Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2006 1:51 pm
I have recently completed a two year aviation program at Selkirk College and I would honestly recommend it to anyone planning on doing their commercial and MIFR. Ramp Monkey, I was in a similar to position as you, after I graduated highschool I had a PPL from a local flight school in CZBB and I didn't know which route to take. I eventually decided on Selkirk and glad I did.
Looking back, something that I really didn't take into account was the level of instruction that I was receiving at my previous FTU. I did all my PPL training with a guy only three years older than me with less than 400 hours and basically every other instructor there was in the same boat. In comparison, at Selkirk the CFI has over 8000 Cessna hours alone and is in the process of writing his own aerodynamics and IFR procedures manual, another instructor was a Commander of a Herc in the USAF and served in Vietnam, another was a Captain at CMA, and two others are currently flying for AC and Flair and work part-time for the College. I also received over 700 hours of groundschool and unlimited free simulator time in Frasca 142 and 242T simulators. You can't honestly tell me that 'flight training is flight training' and that you will have the same 200 hours where ever you go.
Now I realize there are some cons. As far as a Diploma in Aviation Technology is concerned, I realize it is practically useless if I were to use that in another career. But many of the classes I took in my first year (physics, math, english, etc.) are university transferable and a few of my colleagues are working on distance ed degrees. Another con is that you graduate with a debt and are stuck in a low paying ramp/instructor/copilot job as I am. There are also a lot of Mickey Mouse programs out there, so make sure you know what you're getting into.
I am by no means condemning FTU's or doing a degree as both are also good option. I am just someone who is highliting the option of a college program.
Looking back, something that I really didn't take into account was the level of instruction that I was receiving at my previous FTU. I did all my PPL training with a guy only three years older than me with less than 400 hours and basically every other instructor there was in the same boat. In comparison, at Selkirk the CFI has over 8000 Cessna hours alone and is in the process of writing his own aerodynamics and IFR procedures manual, another instructor was a Commander of a Herc in the USAF and served in Vietnam, another was a Captain at CMA, and two others are currently flying for AC and Flair and work part-time for the College. I also received over 700 hours of groundschool and unlimited free simulator time in Frasca 142 and 242T simulators. You can't honestly tell me that 'flight training is flight training' and that you will have the same 200 hours where ever you go.
Now I realize there are some cons. As far as a Diploma in Aviation Technology is concerned, I realize it is practically useless if I were to use that in another career. But many of the classes I took in my first year (physics, math, english, etc.) are university transferable and a few of my colleagues are working on distance ed degrees. Another con is that you graduate with a debt and are stuck in a low paying ramp/instructor/copilot job as I am. There are also a lot of Mickey Mouse programs out there, so make sure you know what you're getting into.
I am by no means condemning FTU's or doing a degree as both are also good option. I am just someone who is highliting the option of a college program.
I agree with the idea of having a degree. There are only upsides. The University of New Brunswick has a BBA in Aviation and Operations Management. It gets you a business degree from UNB and your CPL Multi IFR. The Flying component actually counts as credit hours towards your degree too so it is fully integrated.
http://extend.unb.ca/aviation
http://extend.unb.ca/aviation
-
laticsdave
- Rank 4
- Posts: 255
- Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2006 1:52 pm
- Location: not YMO anymore!!!!!
this is a suggestion i got.
Goal 1, do what you like, what you see your self doing (which for our case here would be flying, some for airlines, some as bush, whatever)
Goal 2, choose a degree that will provide you money, it's a moneymaker. Who knows, perhaps you could use that degree in some sort on the days off while flying and work somewhere. Anything is possible.
But obviously, make sure that the degree is also the thing that you like, but you need to choose it with a bit more caution because you don't want to find yourself in a forloughed situation and then having to make a 21 year olds yearly wage ... So choose something that interests you and does bring you adequate to aquaint your current lifestyle.
Good Luck
Goal 1, do what you like, what you see your self doing (which for our case here would be flying, some for airlines, some as bush, whatever)
Goal 2, choose a degree that will provide you money, it's a moneymaker. Who knows, perhaps you could use that degree in some sort on the days off while flying and work somewhere. Anything is possible.
But obviously, make sure that the degree is also the thing that you like, but you need to choose it with a bit more caution because you don't want to find yourself in a forloughed situation and then having to make a 21 year olds yearly wage ... So choose something that interests you and does bring you adequate to aquaint your current lifestyle.
Good Luck
