Encore's TA2 with some numbers

[JBI]

Math can be hard. Contracts have lots of words. I get it. Expressing one’s anger over an anonymous internet message board is way easier than actually reviewing and reading another airline’s Tentative Agreement. I didn't have a vote in the Encore Contract, nor am I suggesting pilots should have voted yes or no. But the numerous posts about the "garbage" TA miss out on some pretty important information.

What percentage raise should employees expect in a contract? During WestJet’s CA2 discussions last year, many seemed disappointed at the initial 15% raise and pointed to Delta’s recent 30% raise as something to strive for.

With this new CA, the majority of Encore of Captains will be getting 25-40% raises on Jan 1, 2025 from their current salary. This is an almost 60% raise compared to Encore's CA1. I've been in the industry for 25 years now and I've never seen pilots get a 60% pay increase from a previous contract ... and yet some on this board are calling it “garbage”. The key is in the wording of the new Years of Service provisions in the new contract.

Let's take an example:
Pilot hired at Encore as an FO in 2018
Gets laid off during COVID
Recalled in late 2021 then upgrades in 2022
Now a second year Captain.

Based on CA1, that 2nd year Captain would have been paid a basic salary of $79,596 (MMG, not including WSP, profit share or per diems)

The Retention LOU agreed to in 2022/23 means that that just prior to CA2, that 2nd year Captain is getting a basic salary of $94,746

With the new CA2, that same pilot will now earn a basic salary of $126,900 (That's a 34% raise from their current pay and a 59% raise as compared to CA1 rates). Compared to the other regionals in Canada, who, to my understanding, do not have longevity/YOS pay, that 2nd year Encore Captain will be making approximately $22,000 more than a 2nd year Q400 Captain at Porter and $24,400 more than a 2nd year Jazz Captain.

Admittedly, FOs do not get as high a raise. A current second year FO would get an immediate 14% raise over what they currently make and 57% higher than what a 2nd year FO made as part of CA1. But let’s be honest, at this point, the Company is more interested in attracting and retaining Captains.

Now, maybe it’s your opinion that these amounts are still lower than they should be. Fair enough. Truthfully, if I were a junior-ish FO (but had over 1000-1500 hours) I would consider voting no to a contract that wasn’t enough to keep me from moving to Air Canada or Porter as in a sense I have nothing to lose.

But, how much would job action or a strike actually get the Company to move and offer more? Encore had 47 aircraft. 45 that they owned, 2 that they still lease. They have publicly stated after closing the Toronto base that they wanted to operate 30-35 planes. Right now they are operating 15-20. Read that again. They are regularly operating 30% of their fleet because that’s all they can crew. There are more available and in flying condition, but they are not generally used. This hasn’t been an instant thing. If they truly “wanted” Encore to be at 30-35 planes they could have easily offered significantly more money, career advancement and options; they haven’t.

(note: edited because the fleet numbers I originally posted needed to be revised)

By all means, if Encore pilots wanted to go on strike I would support them and walk the picket with them just like I did at the informational picket in YYC a couple months ago. But, realistically, how hard do you think it would be for the Company to have sufficient contingencies in place to cover 12 Q400s worth of flying?

As I’ve mentioned in previous posts, I have not tried to suggest that Encore pilots should have voted yes or no to a contract. I'm no longer at Encore. There are plenty of reasons for voting either way. However, if I were an Encore Captain who had just received a 40% pay increase, was making more than other pilots flying the same equipment and I had anonymous internet posters telling me that I had zero backbone or that I was weak, I know what my response would be: starts with an F and ends with a U.

[co-joe]

At this point, if it's signed, then it doesn't matter what we on the outside think of TA2. It's theirs to live with, all eyes are now on AC. If the gains they make are good enough, WS management will wish they'd done more. But if people aren't voting with their feet, then I guess Encore has now set the bar for Q400 wages in Canada.

[twa22]

Math can be hard. Contracts have lots of words. I get it. Expressing one’s anger over an anonymous internet message board is way easier than actually reviewing and reading another airline’s Tentative Agreement. I didn't have a vote in the Encore Contract, nor am I suggesting pilots should have voted yes or no. But the numerous posts about the "garbage" TA miss out on some pretty important information.

What percentage raise should employees expect in a contract? During WestJet’s CA2 discussions last year, many seemed disappointed at the initial 15% raise and pointed to Delta’s recent 30% raise as something to strive for.

With this new CA, the majority of Encore of Captains will be getting 25-40% raises on Jan 1, 2025 from their current salary. This is an almost 60% raise compared to Encore's CA1. I've been in the industry for 25 years now and I've never seen pilots get a 60% pay increase from a previous contract ... and yet some on this board are calling it “garbage”. The key is in the wording of the new Years of Service provisions in the new contract.

Let's take an example:
Pilot hired at Encore as an FO in 2018
Gets laid off during COVID
Recalled in late 2021 then upgrades in 2022
Now a second year Captain.

Based on CA1, that 2nd year Captain would have been paid a basic salary of $79,596 (MMG, not including WSP, profit share or per diems)

The Retention LOU agreed to in 2022/23 means that that just prior to CA2, that 2nd year Captain is getting a basic salary of $94,746

With the new CA2, that same pilot will now earn a basic salary of $126,900 (That's a 34% raise from their current pay and a 59% raise as compared to CA1 rates). Compared to the other regionals in Canada, who, to my understanding, do not have longevity/YOS pay, that 2nd year Encore Captain will be making approximately $22,000 more than a 2nd year Q400 Captain at Porter and $24,400 more than a 2nd year Jazz Captain.

Admittedly, FOs do not get as high a raise. A current second year FO would get an immediate 14% raise over what they currently make and 57% higher than what a 2nd year FO made as part of CA1. But let’s be honest, at this point, the Company is more interested in attracting and retaining Captains.

Now, maybe it’s your opinion that these amounts are still lower than they should be. Fair enough. Truthfully, if I were a junior-ish FO (but had over 1000-1500 hours) I would consider voting no to a contract that wasn’t enough to keep me from moving to Air Canada or Porter as in a sense I have nothing to lose.

But, how much would job action or a strike actually get the Company to move and offer more? Encore had 47 aircraft. 45 that they owned, 2 that they still lease. They have publicly stated after closing the Toronto base that they wanted to operate 30-35 planes. Right now they are operating 12. Read that again. They are regularly operating 12 of 47 aircraft because that’s all they can crew. There are more available and in flying condition, but they are not generally used. This hasn’t been an instant thing. If they truly “wanted” Encore to be at 30-35 planes they could have easily offered significantly more money, career advancement and options; they haven’t.

By all means, if Encore pilots wanted to go on strike I would support them and walk the picket with them just like I did at the informational picket in YYC a couple months ago. But, realistically, how hard do you think it would be for the Company to have sufficient contingencies in place to cover 12 Q400s worth of flying?

As I’ve mentioned in previous posts, I have not tried to suggest that Encore pilots should have voted yes or no to a contract. I'm no longer at Encore. There are plenty of reasons for voting either way. However, if I were an Encore Captain who had just received a 40% pay increase, was making more than other pilots flying the same equipment and I had anonymous internet posters telling me that I had zero backbone or that I was weak, I know what my response would be: starts with an F and ends with a U.

The captain numbers you presented, in perspective, are not bad, but I think this is the catch for most people, including myself

30% on top of nothing, is still nothing... Year 1 to 4 Jazz FOs got a 50% pay rise, yes 50%...but 50% on 40k is only 60k, which in today's climate with the current cost of living, is peanuts when one has to live in one of four major cities or in the vicinity (or face the dreaded commute)

When all the major US regionals are offering between 140-150k to start for captains, in a country with, relatively speaking, lower cost of living, this TA falls far, far behind... Does a 70 to 100% pay raise sound ridiculous? Sure, when you just look at the percentage, and don't factor what the initial number being worked with was to start

So unfortunately yes, while great there was a raise, it still wasn't enough, and the story will be the same with AC... The starting salary should be no less then 100k. Considering the current starting salary is around 58k, we're looking at a 70-75% raise... Sounds ludacris, but it's really not

[digits_]

However, if I were an Encore Captain who had just received a 40% pay increase, was making more than other pilots flying the same equipment and I had anonymous internet posters telling me that I had zero backbone or that I was weak, I know what my response would be: starts with an F and ends with a U.

I think the main thing that ticks people off here, is that nothing materially changed between TA1 and TA2. Other than a threatening email from ALPA.

It's as if the union was working with management. And regardless of the pay conditions in the contract, why sign a 5 year deal in this pilot market?

That's based on the info shared on AvCanada. It's possible the actual contract is different.

A lot of posters on AvCanada are eyeing Encore and WestJet and AC as possible future employers, myself included. Hence the interest and disappointed. Also remember that if you're hoping for support of the public, then that public will inevitably judge you as well once the dust settles. That's been less of a factor with the Encore negotiations but has been quite big with the WJ and definitely now the AC negotiations. Running a big PR campaign will backfire and open one up for ridicule if the gains are minor.

[goingnowherefast]

With the new CA2, that same pilot will now earn a basic salary of $126,900 (That's a 34% raise from their current pay and a 59% raise as compared to CA1 rates). Compared to the other regionals in Canada, who, to my understanding, do not have longevity/YOS pay, that 2nd year Encore Captain will be making approximately $22,000 more than a 2nd year Q400 Captain at Porter and $24,400 more than a 2nd year Jazz Captain.

Can you please explain how you got to $126,900? I'm getting a very different answer for 2nd year captain pay.

[JBI]

With the new CA2, that same pilot will now earn a basic salary of $126,900 (That's a 34% raise from their current pay and a 59% raise as compared to CA1 rates). Compared to the other regionals in Canada, who, to my understanding, do not have longevity/YOS pay, that 2nd year Encore Captain will be making approximately $22,000 more than a 2nd year Q400 Captain at Porter and $24,400 more than a 2nd year Jazz Captain.

Can you please explain how you got to $126,900? I'm getting a very different answer for 2nd year captain pay.

Yup, no problem. One of the key gains in this contract for the Encore pilots is that when then move from First Officer to Captain, they don’t start at Step 1 of Captain’s Pay. They start at the step that is equivalent to the number of years they’ve been at the company.

For the example above, the pilot has been at the Company for 6 years, so they’ll go from 2nd step Captain’s pay to 6th step Captain’s pay starting Jan 1, 2025 (that’s when the clause takes effect).
So that’s a step rate of $141.00 per credit x 75 hours Minimum Monthly Guarantee x 12 months and it gives you $126,900. (though technically on Jan 1, 2025 the Step 6 rate goes to $143.82)

[JBI]

However, if I were an Encore Captain who had just received a 40% pay increase, was making more than other pilots flying the same equipment and I had anonymous internet posters telling me that I had zero backbone or that I was weak, I know what my response would be: starts with an F and ends with a U.

I think the main thing that ticks people off here, is that nothing materially changed between TA1 and TA2. Other than a threatening email from ALPA.

It's as if the union was working with management. And regardless of the pay conditions in the contract, why sign a 5 year deal in this pilot market?

That's based on the info shared on AvCanada. It's possible the actual contract is different.

A lot of posters on AvCanada are eyeing Encore and WestJet and AC as possible future employers, myself included. Hence the interest and disappointed. Also remember that if you're hoping for support of the public, then that public will inevitably judge you as well once the dust settles. That's been less of a factor with the Encore negotiations but has been quite big with the WJ and definitely now the AC negotiations. Running a big PR campaign will backfire and open one up for ridicule if the gains are minor.

The biggest change was in the WSP contribution amounts. To go through the whole history of the WSP would be a 200 page novel! While I think it's disappointing the WSP got reduced in the first place for TA1, as I've outlined in some previous posts, there were a shocking number of Encore pilots who didn't contribute at all.

TA1 had the contribution percentage as:
Years
1-2 max 4%
3 max 5%
4-5 max 7%
6 max 9%
7+ max 10%

TA2 now has Captains at 10% no matter what year
FOs
0-3 years 5%
4+ years 10%
Captains 10%

I'll do some math, but the most extreme situation would be a direct entry Captain. Previously they could get 4% of their salary ($112 x 75MMG x 12 months x 0.04 WSP rate) = $4,032 in Company WSP match, now they can get 10% ($112 x 75MMG x 12 months x 0.1 WSP rate) = $10,080 in Company WSP match. So that's an additional $6,000 this year from TA2 over TA1. Over a 6 year period that difference would add up to almost $100,000.

The base relocation payment is not insignificant. The company can close a base as it chooses. They previously announced that they were closing the YYZ base and for the last while when no Qs were based in YYZ, YYZ crews started all their pairing with deadheads. In TA1, there were increased reimbursements if a pilot moved from YYZ to closer to YYC. But they were just reimbursements and you actually had to move. If a YYZ pilot want to stay living in YYZ and now commute to a YYC, they will now get a $12,500 lump sum payment.

Less days worked for some months with additional pay when you do need to work.

Additional pay for stand-ups (which the company could ALWAYS assign). Two stand-ups a month for that Captain in my initial post would mean an additional $10,152 a year based on 4 hours premium a month.

Because so much of the improvements in TA2 compared to TA1 were not based on an increase in step pay, pilots seem to give it less credence especially because it really varies with every pilot. But between TA2 and TA1, I'd say the average Captain will get, very roughly, an additional $15,000 per year in value. So between TA2 and TA1, that's another 11% in pay for the pilot in my initial post.

So that 2nd year Captain, who had been at Encore for 6 years will now be getting a T4 in the range of $142,000. People can argue that's not enough - totally fair. But I wouldn't say that an additional $15,000 per year isn't a material change. It's an additional 11-12% over TA1.

[JBI]

The captain numbers you presented, in perspective, are not bad, but I think this is the catch for most people, including myself

30% on top of nothing, is still nothing... Year 1 to 4 Jazz FOs got a 50% pay rise, yes 50%...but 50% on 40k is only 60k, which in today's climate with the current cost of living, is peanuts when one has to live in one of four major cities or in the vicinity (or face the dreaded commute)

When all the major US regionals are offering between 140-150k to start for captains, in a country with, relatively speaking, lower cost of living, this TA falls far, far behind... Does a 70 to 100% pay raise sound ridiculous? Sure, when you just look at the percentage, and don't factor what the initial number being worked with was to start

So unfortunately yes, while great there was a raise, it still wasn't enough, and the story will be the same with AC... The starting salary should be no less then 100k. Considering the current starting salary is around 58k, we're looking at a 70-75% raise... Sounds ludacris, but it's really not

I don’t necessarily disagree with you. I’m not for a second arguing that Canadian Pilots should make less than our US counterparts. But again, let’s look at numbers.

Right now, the only US regional turboprop operator is Silver Airways. Their current starting FO pay is $63.45 per credit. Encore’s is $72.00. Silver’s starting Captain pay is $120 per credit, Encore’s is $112. Yes, there is the exchange rate, but there’s always the discussion of how to actually value it – I agree it shouldn’t be 1:1, but considering all US pilot’s expenses are in US dollars, it should be the current exchange rate. A long discussion about buying power in Canada vs. the US is not something I wish to engage in on AvCanada!

Looking at the much larger regionals, yes, their pay is higher than in Canada. But the ones that pay the most, like Endeavor, Republic and Envoy all have their junior bases in really expensive cities as well. Most have NYC as a junior base. I lived in New York City for 4 years, I loved it, but the cost of living AND taxes in New York City were substantially higher than what I have now in Alberta (yes, my tax rate in New York was higher than in Alberta). Oh, and our rent for a nice one bedroom in Queens was $4,000 USD a month.

The two biggest regionals in the US are Republic Airways and Skywest.
Republic’s first year Captain pay is $142.81 and they don’t have longevity/Length of Service. So when an FO upgrades, that’s the pay rate they get. That’s a basic pay of $128,529 US. At Skywest, they do have longevity, but gotta remember that the FOs need to have a minimum 1200-1500 hours TT and an ATPL when they start due to US legislation, so most upgrades take place after a year or two. Realistically, a first year Captain at Skywest will make $149 x 75 MMG x 12 months: $134,100. It’s more than Canadian regionals, and I’m not condoning that, but it’s a lot closer than people think.

What we as Canadian pilots see and get really jealous about are the signing bonuses! And upgrade bonuses! They are enticing no doubt. I was doing some ALPA training with members of the Envoy MEC and it was surprising to hear that more than half of their pilots were TURNING DOWN the bonuses because I the bonuses had some significant conditions on them. Pilots had to stay a certain amount of time and if they left to go to a major or LCC, they had to be paid back in full with some negative tax consequences. I was shocked, but for many, those bonuses made no difference, they just wanted their part 121 PIC hours and then they were off to a major.

Finally, look at the working conditions at some of the regionals in the US. Many have max 19 days worked in a month, they open/close bases on a whim or in NYC they have “co-bases” meaning you could be forced to start your pairing at LGA, JFK or EWR. Getting to EWR from an apartment in the LGA area takes an hour and a half on transit on a good day. Heck, when I moved to NYC in 2016 and was researching the regionals in the US, half of them made you share your hotel room with another pilot during initial training!

The pay in the US is more. Period. I’m not going to justify it. But things are not quite as amazing as they may seem.

[cdnavater]

However, if I were an Encore Captain who had just received a 40% pay increase, was making more than other pilots flying the same equipment and I had anonymous internet posters telling me that I had zero backbone or that I was weak, I know what my response would be: starts with an F and ends with a U.

I think the main thing that ticks people off here, is that nothing materially changed between TA1 and TA2. Other than a threatening email from ALPA.

It's as if the union was working with management. And regardless of the pay conditions in the contract, why sign a 5 year deal in this pilot market?

That's based on the info shared on AvCanada. It's possible the actual contract is different.

A lot of posters on AvCanada are eyeing Encore and WestJet and AC as possible future employers, myself included. Hence the interest and disappointed. Also remember that if you're hoping for support of the public, then that public will inevitably judge you as well once the dust settles. That's been less of a factor with the Encore negotiations but has been quite big with the WJ and definitely now the AC negotiations. Running a big PR campaign will backfire and open one up for ridicule if the gains are minor.

The biggest change was in the WSP contribution amounts. To go through the whole history of the WSP would be a 200 page novel! While I think it's disappointing the WSP got reduced in the first place for TA1, as I've outlined in some previous posts, there were a shocking number of Encore pilots who didn't contribute at all.

TA1 had the contribution percentage as:
Years
1-2 max 4%
3 max 5%
4-5 max 7%
6 max 9%
7+ max 10%

TA2 now has Captains at 10% no matter what year
FOs
0-3 years 5%
4+ years 10%
Captains 10%

I'll do some math, but the most extreme situation would be a direct entry Captain. Previously they could get 4% of their salary ($112 x 75MMG x 12 months x 0.04 WSP rate) = $4,032 in Company WSP match, now they can get 10% ($112 x 75MMG x 12 months x 0.1 WSP rate) = $10,080 in Company WSP match. So that's an additional $6,000 this year from TA2 over TA1. Over a 6 year period that difference would add up to almost $100,000.

The base relocation payment is not insignificant. The company can close a base as it chooses. They previously announced that they were closing the YYZ base and for the last while when no Qs were based in YYZ, YYZ crews started all their pairing with deadheads. In TA1, there were increased reimbursements if a pilot moved from YYZ to closer to YYC. But they were just reimbursements and you actually had to move. If a YYZ pilot want to stay living in YYZ and now commute to a YYC, they will now get a $12,500 lump sum payment.

Less days worked for some months with additional pay when you do need to work.

Additional pay for stand-ups (which the company could ALWAYS assign). Two stand-ups a month for that Captain in my initial post would mean an additional $10,152 a year based on 4 hours premium a month.

Because so much of the improvements in TA2 compared to TA1 were not based on an increase in step pay, pilots seem to give it less credence especially because it really varies with every pilot. But between TA2 and TA1, I'd say the average Captain will get, very roughly, an additional $15,000 per year in value. So between TA2 and TA1, that's another 11% in pay for the pilot in my initial post.

So that 2nd year Captain, who had been at Encore for 6 years will now be getting a T4 in the range of $142,000. People can argue that's not enough - totally fair. But I wouldn't say that an additional $15,000 per year isn't a material change. It's an additional 11-12% over TA1.

Thanks for the info and breakdown, looking at it this way, clearly it’s better than the first offer, a couple things to correct though.
A Jazz pilot with the same 2018 start date basic salary at the MMG is 111,953(120.38x77.5x12), the YOS carries over after year 3 based on a table, 4/2, 5/3, 6/4, 7/5, 8/6, 9 and beyond 7. I’m assuming the 9 and beyond is an assumption that after 9 years in the right seat if you don’t upgrade it’s because you don’t want to.
I’d also like to look at the term “lump sum”. It’s a lump sum if they pay the entire amount, this is a deferred payment that appears to disappear if you don’t stay for the year, correct me if I’m wrong.
“a single payment of an amount rather than several payments of smaller amounts:“

I get the peanut gallery comments though and remember them well during our(Jazz) contract vote, keeping in mind we were not in traditional negotiations with our long term contract. I ended up with a 31% increase in take home pay, new hires close to 60% increase in take home pay, not enough for many on here.
I’m still hoping that once AC is done, AC will come back and make us more attractive to potential pilots but I believe it may be too late by then, no pilots left to hire. Any pilots who would qualify and be successful at DEC are a small pool and more than likely already hired elsewhere or staying put where they are, of course over time pilots will build some experience and become qualified but unless they fix our pay and proper progression, there are more attractive places to go.
To the Encore pilots, congratulations on your new contract, seems like a decent improvement and the bottom line is if they are having trouble staffing the Q and actually care, they will come back to the table, if they don’t, that says all it needs to say.

[twa22]

The captain numbers you presented, in perspective, are not bad, but I think this is the catch for most people, including myself

30% on top of nothing, is still nothing... Year 1 to 4 Jazz FOs got a 50% pay rise, yes 50%...but 50% on 40k is only 60k, which in today's climate with the current cost of living, is peanuts when one has to live in one of four major cities or in the vicinity (or face the dreaded commute)

When all the major US regionals are offering between 140-150k to start for captains, in a country with, relatively speaking, lower cost of living, this TA falls far, far behind... Does a 70 to 100% pay raise sound ridiculous? Sure, when you just look at the percentage, and don't factor what the initial number being worked with was to start

So unfortunately yes, while great there was a raise, it still wasn't enough, and the story will be the same with AC... The starting salary should be no less then 100k. Considering the current starting salary is around 58k, we're looking at a 70-75% raise... Sounds ludacris, but it's really not

I don’t necessarily disagree with you. I’m not for a second arguing that Canadian Pilots should make less than our US counterparts. But again, let’s look at numbers.

Right now, the only US regional turboprop operator is Silver Airways. Their current starting FO pay is $63.45 per credit. Encore’s is $72.00. Silver’s starting Captain pay is $120 per credit, Encore’s is $112. Yes, there is the exchange rate, but there’s always the discussion of how to actually value it – I agree it shouldn’t be 1:1, but considering all US pilot’s expenses are in US dollars, it should be the current exchange rate. A long discussion about buying power in Canada vs. the US is not something I wish to engage in on AvCanada!

Looking at the much larger regionals, yes, their pay is higher than in Canada. But the ones that pay the most, like Endeavor, Republic and Envoy all have their junior bases in really expensive cities as well. Most have NYC as a junior base. I lived in New York City for 4 years, I loved it, but the cost of living AND taxes in New York City were substantially higher than what I have now in Alberta (yes, my tax rate in New York was higher than in Alberta). Oh, and our rent for a nice one bedroom in Queens was $4,000 USD a month.

The two biggest regionals in the US are Republic Airways and Skywest.
Republic’s first year Captain pay is $142.81 and they don’t have longevity/Length of Service. So when an FO upgrades, that’s the pay rate they get. That’s a basic pay of $128,529 US. At Skywest, they do have longevity, but gotta remember that the FOs need to have a minimum 1200-1500 hours TT and an ATPL when they start due to US legislation, so most upgrades take place after a year or two. Realistically, a first year Captain at Skywest will make $149 x 75 MMG x 12 months: $134,100. It’s more than Canadian regionals, and I’m not condoning that, but it’s a lot closer than people think.

What we as Canadian pilots see and get really jealous about are the signing bonuses! And upgrade bonuses! They are enticing no doubt. I was doing some ALPA training with members of the Envoy MEC and it was surprising to hear that more than half of their pilots were TURNING DOWN the bonuses because I the bonuses had some significant conditions on them. Pilots had to stay a certain amount of time and if they left to go to a major or LCC, they had to be paid back in full with some negative tax consequences. I was shocked, but for many, those bonuses made no difference, they just wanted their part 121 PIC hours and then they were off to a major.

Finally, look at the working conditions at some of the regionals in the US. Many have max 19 days worked in a month, they open/close bases on a whim or in NYC they have “co-bases” meaning you could be forced to start your pairing at LGA, JFK or EWR. Getting to EWR from an apartment in the LGA area takes an hour and a half on transit on a good day. Heck, when I moved to NYC in 2016 and was researching the regionals in the US, half of them made you share your hotel room with another pilot during initial training!

The pay in the US is more. Period. I’m not going to justify it. But things are not quite as amazing as they may seem.

Yes I wanted to add Silver Airways in the conservation as they are the only comparable operator to Encore in terms of aircraft, although to compare an ATR42 to a Q400 is a bit of stretch also, an ATR72 would be a better Q400 comparison but I digress.

Regardless, your points are valid, and I actually agree with you on most of your last post. I won't pretend that the US is all rosy, I know it isn't, hence why I said in my initial post that the cost of living is relatively less, as I was referring to living somewhere in the US that is not New York, LA, SFO, etc... these cities are worse then Toronto or Vancouver in terms of cost of living. I also wasn't necessarily referring to the signing bonuses either, as these are part of the unprecedented times we are seeing, and there was never a doubt in my mind that there are some strings attached... there is no such thing as free money, at least, not at these massive amounts

We for sure do have some good things going for us here in Canada, but the pay, especially for FOs, is just not one of them and at some point or another, something will have to give... we already know less and less people are entering the industry, and we know that dropping the hiring requirements to 500 hours is a band aid solution to getting FOs, who will not be upgradable for some years, and then you're back to square one, pay. This TA for encore won't fix the Captain issues, much like the MOA didn't fix much of the issues at Jazz, the only difference here is that Encore could've made a much greater difference because they were in a position to walk, and didn't... and I think that's what most people are actually upset about, that so far, nobody has had the guts to walk... I think this is the prevailing theme in Canadian aviation, where no one has been able to make a substantially move that has had a cascading effect

[JBI]

Thanks for the info and breakdown, looking at it this way, clearly it’s better than the first offer, a couple things to correct though.
A Jazz pilot with the same 2018 start date basic salary at the MMG is 111,953(120.38x77.5x12), the YOS carries over after year 3 based on a table, 4/2, 5/3, 6/4, 7/5, 8/6, 9 and beyond 7. I’m assuming the 9 and beyond is an assumption that after 9 years in the right seat if you don’t upgrade it’s because you don’t want to.
I’d also like to look at the term “lump sum”. It’s a lump sum if they pay the entire amount, this is a deferred payment that appears to disappear if you don’t stay for the year, correct me if I’m wrong.
“a single payment of an amount rather than several payments of smaller amounts:“

I get the peanut gallery comments though and remember them well during our(Jazz) contract vote, keeping in mind we were not in traditional negotiations with our long term contract. I ended up with a 31% increase in take home pay, new hires close to 60% increase in take home pay, not enough for many on here.
I’m still hoping that once AC is done, AC will come back and make us more attractive to potential pilots but I believe it may be too late by then, no pilots left to hire. Any pilots who would qualify and be successful at DEC are a small pool and more than likely already hired elsewhere or staying put where they are, of course over time pilots will build some experience and become qualified but unless they fix our pay and proper progression, there are more attractive places to go.
To the Encore pilots, congratulations on your new contract, seems like a decent improvement and the bottom line is if they are having trouble staffing the Q and actually care, they will come back to the table, if they don’t, that says all it needs to say.

Thanks for the clarification on Jazz and their YOS. I'm glad to hear that it's better than I thought. I think you'll agree that the comparison wasn't meant as an "Encore is better!" but more as rebuttal to the claims that Encore was agreeing to make more than their competitors/comparators already make.

Agree with you about the lump sum payment thing. It is a gain over TA1, but a 'real' lump sum would have been nicer.

[JBI]

Yes I wanted to add Silver Airways in the conservation as they are the only comparable operator to Encore in terms of aircraft, although to compare an ATR42 to a Q400 is a bit of stretch also, an ATR72 would be a better Q400 comparison but I digress.

Regardless, your points are valid, and I actually agree with you on most of your last post. I won't pretend that the US is all rosy, I know it isn't, hence why I said in my initial post that the cost of living is relatively less, as I was referring to living somewhere in the US that is not New York, LA, SFO, etc... these cities are worse then Toronto or Vancouver in terms of cost of living. I also wasn't necessarily referring to the signing bonuses either, as these are part of the unprecedented times we are seeing, and there was never a doubt in my mind that there are some strings attached... there is no such thing as free money, at least, not at these massive amounts

We for sure do have some good things going for us here in Canada, but the pay, especially for FOs, is just not one of them and at some point or another, something will have to give... we already know less and less people are entering the industry, and we know that dropping the hiring requirements to 500 hours is a band aid solution to getting FOs, who will not be upgradable for some years, and then you're back to square one, pay. This TA for encore won't fix the Captain issues, much like the MOA didn't fix much of the issues at Jazz, the only difference here is that Encore could've made a much greater difference because they were in a position to walk, and didn't... and I think that's what most people are actually upset about, that so far, nobody has had the guts to walk... I think this is the prevailing theme in Canadian aviation, where no one has been able to make a substantially move that has had a cascading effect

Agree with all your points about Canada/US. It's hard to make apples to apples comparisons.

When I was first starting flying in the early 2000s, the US regionals paid peanuts even compared to Jazz. I remember something like starting FOs at Mesa would make $21,000 a year. Documentary film maker Michael Moore featured some regional pilots in one of his movies as they were on food stamps! So was more and more publicity about how poor the pay was for pilots that less people pursued it, or those who started pursuing it left. Then as a surprise to no one, except, somehow, seemingly well educated Airline management types, there was a shortage of pilots! Oh no! How could this have happened?! The ATPL and minimum hours requirement helped both improve safety and experience levels in the cockpit, but also created demand for experienced FOs. This is not an excuse for lower FO pay, but it's helpful to understand how the US got to where the salaries were. The recruitment environment in Canada is different. I know that both Jazz and Encore have an abundance of FOs as compared to Captains at the moment.

As for the strike comments, respectfully, guts shouldn't have anything to do with it. It comes down to whether taking job action will get you a better negotiated contract. There's this universal belief at the moment that striking will always get you a better contract, but that's not the reality. In the right situation, strikes can be an incredibly effective tool. The Company doesn't operate, loses all revenue, it hurts the ownership, they lose profit and suddenly they're ready to submit to demands. This works better in a situation where there really are very little contingency options for a company.

To be clear, this is now opinion, I definitely understand why some people disagree with me. That's fair. But in a previous post I outlined why I thought the company had some pretty strong contingency options and no one really presented facts presenting a counter-point other than an assertion that "oh, the company needs Encore, they'll cave". It doesn't come down to whether the Encore pilots or MEC had the 'guts' to go on strike. The MEC (and the pilots voting seemed to agree) that the Company would likely have enough contingencies in place to cover the minimum Encore flying that they felt was necessary that the pilots would not obtain a better contract than TA2 in the event of a work stoppage. I would agree with that position.

[twa22]

Yes I wanted to add Silver Airways in the conservation as they are the only comparable operator to Encore in terms of aircraft, although to compare an ATR42 to a Q400 is a bit of stretch also, an ATR72 would be a better Q400 comparison but I digress.

Regardless, your points are valid, and I actually agree with you on most of your last post. I won't pretend that the US is all rosy, I know it isn't, hence why I said in my initial post that the cost of living is relatively less, as I was referring to living somewhere in the US that is not New York, LA, SFO, etc... these cities are worse then Toronto or Vancouver in terms of cost of living. I also wasn't necessarily referring to the signing bonuses either, as these are part of the unprecedented times we are seeing, and there was never a doubt in my mind that there are some strings attached... there is no such thing as free money, at least, not at these massive amounts

We for sure do have some good things going for us here in Canada, but the pay, especially for FOs, is just not one of them and at some point or another, something will have to give... we already know less and less people are entering the industry, and we know that dropping the hiring requirements to 500 hours is a band aid solution to getting FOs, who will not be upgradable for some years, and then you're back to square one, pay. This TA for encore won't fix the Captain issues, much like the MOA didn't fix much of the issues at Jazz, the only difference here is that Encore could've made a much greater difference because they were in a position to walk, and didn't... and I think that's what most people are actually upset about, that so far, nobody has had the guts to walk... I think this is the prevailing theme in Canadian aviation, where no one has been able to make a substantially move that has had a cascading effect

Agree with all your points about Canada/US. It's hard to make apples to apples comparisons.

When I was first starting flying in the early 2000s, the US regionals paid peanuts even compared to Jazz. I remember something like starting FOs at Mesa would make $21,000 a year. Documentary film maker Michael Moore featured some regional pilots in one of his movies as they were on food stamps! So was more and more publicity about how poor the pay was for pilots that less people pursued it, or those who started pursuing it left. Then as a surprise to no one, except, somehow, seemingly well educated Airline management types, there was a shortage of pilots! Oh no! How could this have happened?! The ATPL and minimum hours requirement helped both improve safety and experience levels in the cockpit, but also created demand for experienced FOs. This is not an excuse for lower FO pay, but it's helpful to understand how the US got to where the salaries were. The recruitment environment in Canada is different. I know that both Jazz and Encore have an abundance of FOs as compared to Captains at the moment.

As for the strike comments, respectfully, guts shouldn't have anything to do with it. It comes down to whether taking job action will get you a better negotiated contract. There's this universal belief at the moment that striking will always get you a better contract, but that's not the reality. In the right situation, strikes can be an incredibly effective tool. The Company doesn't operate, loses all revenue, it hurts the ownership, they lose profit and suddenly they're ready to submit to demands. This works better in a situation where there really are very little contingency options for a company.

To be clear, this is now opinion, I definitely understand why some people disagree with me. That's fair. But in a previous post I outlined why I thought the company had some pretty strong contingency options and no one really presented facts presenting a counter-point other than an assertion that "oh, the company needs Encore, they'll cave". It doesn't come down to whether the Encore pilots or MEC had the 'guts' to go on strike. The MEC (and the pilots voting seemed to agree) that the Company would likely have enough contingencies in place to cover the minimum Encore flying that they felt was necessary that the pilots would not obtain a better contract than TA2 in the event of a work stoppage. I would agree with that position.

Indeed US pay was atrocious, and I think most pilots, worldwide, know of this. The cycles have swung in many parts of the world in the last 20-30 years, what was once great, is no longer the case, and vice versa (US being the best example at the moment)

I am not in a position to give an opinion on what may have happened had a strike occurred at Encore, but to segway into the point about guts, I believe the sentiment isn't regarding just Encore and their latest TA... I think it's Canadian pilots have generally had enough of seeing their colleagues continuously giving in, time and time again, over the last few years. It started with Flair, then it was followed by WestJet mainline, then Jazz (to a certain degree, Jazz was never in a strike position), then Flair again, and now Encore. In each instance, we saw either the first deal taken, or the threat to strike, only to have a last minute, subpar agreement accepted (again, I understand this is arguable and depends on the optics), and this fuels the fire you see of people saying enough is enough, garbage deal, they wouldn't have shut them down, etc.

The real test will be AC,will they be able to finally make the gains that will move this industry forward, or will they get a subpar deal resulting in the industry remaining subpar for the foreseeable future... We shall see in the coming months

[Bede]

There JBI goes again with his appeal to facts and logic. Argumentum ad factum.

Life is so much more interesting when you pick up a torch and make up your own facts to justify lighting it.

[Bede]

I think the main thing that ticks people off here, is that nothing materially changed between TA1 and TA2. Other than a threatening email from ALPA.

Maybe the MEC was relaying the possibility of Encore getting shut down.

I don't know the numbers, but I often wonder why WestJet keeps Encore around. Don't get me wrong, I support Encore pilots, but the argument in favour of a regional carrier (feed for international operations) is no longer there. They can't get captains. The Q has higher maintenance costs per mile than the 737. The flying they do can either be operated by the 737 or closed down with minimal disruption. They have half their fleet sitting. What's the point?

If I were WJ management, I would tell the union that a failure to ratify would be the last straw. Maybe it's a bluff, maybe it's not, but if I were the MEC, I'd consider it a very real possibility.

[digits_]

I think the main thing that ticks people off here, is that nothing materially changed between TA1 and TA2. Other than a threatening email from ALPA.

Maybe the MEC was relaying the possibility of Encore getting shut down.

I don't know the numbers, but I often wonder why WestJet keeps Encore around. Don't get me wrong, I support Encore pilots, but the argument in favour of a regional carrier (feed for international operations) is no longer there. They can't get captains. The Q has higher maintenance costs per mile than the 737. The flying they do can either be operated by the 737 or closed down with minimal disruption. They have half their fleet sitting. What's the point?

If I were WJ management, I would tell the union that a failure to ratify would be the last straw. Maybe it's a bluff, maybe it's not, but if I were the MEC, I'd consider it a very real possibility.

But if that's the case, wouldn't it be better for the pilots to just shut it down?
The flying will need to happen anyways, so either AC or WJ (or others?) will expand and take over the operation. Which means more flying will have to be done by pilots in -likely- better paid positions.

[Bede]

But if that's the case, wouldn't it be better for the pilots to just shut it down?
The flying will need to happen anyways, so either AC or WJ (or others?) will expand and take over the operation. Which means more flying will have to be done by pilots in -likely- better paid positions.

Well, sure. Easy for us to say. Now imagine that you're an encore pilot and have a family to feed.

[twa22]

But if that's the case, wouldn't it be better for the pilots to just shut it down?
The flying will need to happen anyways, so either AC or WJ (or others?) will expand and take over the operation. Which means more flying will have to be done by pilots in -likely- better paid positions.

Well, sure. Easy for us to say. Now imagine that you're an encore pilot and have a family to feed.

I don't get it, are you for or against pilots getting significant increases? JBI's facts and logic are good, but the reality is that pilot groups have been driven by fear for far, far too long in this country... And this is a perfect statement that shows that. Nobody had ever gotten anywhere without some form of risk, and we inherently chose a career with a lot more risk then the average folk. You want to win big, you gotta make some tough choices in the end... Till now, no one has taken the risk and rolled the dice, and look at the state our industry is in.... I can go sell cars and make more then a year 1 captain at a Canadian regional

[Tbayer2021]

But if that's the case, wouldn't it be better for the pilots to just shut it down?
The flying will need to happen anyways, so either AC or WJ (or others?) will expand and take over the operation. Which means more flying will have to be done by pilots in -likely- better paid positions.

Well, sure. Easy for us to say. Now imagine that you're an encore pilot and have a family to feed.

I don't get it, are you for or against pilots getting significant increases? JBI's facts and logic are good, but the reality is that pilot groups have been driven by fear for far, far too long in this country... And this is a perfect statement that shows that. Nobody had ever gotten anywhere without some form of risk, and we inherently chose a career with a lot more risk then the average folk. You want to win big, you gotta make some tough choices in the end... Till now, no one has taken the risk and rolled the dice, and look at the state our industry is in.... I can go sell cars and make more then a year 1 captain at a Canadian regional

You can make more than a senior 777 skipper if you're good at selling them. But in all seriousness, you're right. We can't expect the gains we are demanding if we're not willing to go all the way. The company sure isn't going to just give anything up. Frank Lorenzo once answered, "When you make me", after being asked by pilots when he was going to give them their new contract.

[twa22]

Well, sure. Easy for us to say. Now imagine that you're an encore pilot and have a family to feed.

I don't get it, are you for or against pilots getting significant increases? JBI's facts and logic are good, but the reality is that pilot groups have been driven by fear for far, far too long in this country... And this is a perfect statement that shows that. Nobody had ever gotten anywhere without some form of risk, and we inherently chose a career with a lot more risk then the average folk. You want to win big, you gotta make some tough choices in the end... Till now, no one has taken the risk and rolled the dice, and look at the state our industry is in.... I can go sell cars and make more then a year 1 captain at a Canadian regional

You can make more than a senior 777 skipper if you're good at selling them. But in all seriousness, you're right. We can't expect the gains we are demanding if we're not willing to go all the way. The company sure isn't going to just give anything up. Frank Lorenzo once answered, "When you make me", after being asked by pilots when he was going to give them their new contract.

Oh I know... Just goes to show like you said, you have to want it bad enough, but I guess most don't, at least that's what has been shown in the last few negotiations

[Bede]

I don't get it, are you for or against pilots getting significant increases? JBI's facts and logic are good, but the reality is that pilot groups have been driven by fear for far, far too long in this country... And this is a perfect statement that shows that. Nobody had ever gotten anywhere without some form of risk, and we inherently chose a career with a lot more risk then the average folk. You want to win big, you gotta make some tough choices in the end... Till now, no one has taken the risk and rolled the dice, and look at the state our industry is in.... I can go sell cars and make more then a year 1 captain at a Canadian regional

That's a fair argument, but I think misguided. I am quite risk averse- a lot more than I used to be. I've realized that with many things, the downside far exceeds the upside. We always hear about the guy who rolled the dice and it turned to gold. We never hear about the guy who rolled the dice and lost everything. There's far more of those guys.

Take, for example, Air Canada's 2013 fiasco leaving the pilots with $50M less than the TA they voted down.

The way to improve compensation in this industry is not to roll the dice and win big one time- it is to make gradual improvements contract over contract. That is finally what is happening in Canada.

[twa22]

I don't get it, are you for or against pilots getting significant increases? JBI's facts and logic are good, but the reality is that pilot groups have been driven by fear for far, far too long in this country... And this is a perfect statement that shows that. Nobody had ever gotten anywhere without some form of risk, and we inherently chose a career with a lot more risk then the average folk. You want to win big, you gotta make some tough choices in the end... Till now, no one has taken the risk and rolled the dice, and look at the state our industry is in.... I can go sell cars and make more then a year 1 captain at a Canadian regional

The way to improve compensation in this industry is not to roll the dice and win big one time- it is to make gradual improvements contract over contract. That is finally what is happening in Canada.

I don't know about that, you can easily make the argument that rolling the dice in this current climate will have a much different result then it did in 2013... Gradual gains are great, but most people currently can't put food on the table, look at AC pilots on flat pay, we're talking about food stamps for some over in the AC forum!

So I think we're past the point of gradual returns, enough is enough, we deserve to be paid appropriate wages for the year 2024...but that's my two cents

[flyingpilot]

The problem with going step by step in terms of getting a new contract is that cost of loving catches up quite fast here and the gains don't seem much at the end of the day. Thats why the bar has to be set up much higher than it is now across the industry here; only then would small gains be effective and be meaningful.

[Jimmy_Hoffa]

I don't get it, are you for or against pilots getting significant increases? JBI's facts and logic are good, but the reality is that pilot groups have been driven by fear for far, far too long in this country... And this is a perfect statement that shows that. Nobody had ever gotten anywhere without some form of risk, and we inherently chose a career with a lot more risk then the average folk. You want to win big, you gotta make some tough choices in the end... Till now, no one has taken the risk and rolled the dice, and look at the state our industry is in.... I can go sell cars and make more then a year 1 captain at a Canadian regional

That's a fair argument, but I think misguided. I am quite risk averse- a lot more than I used to be. I've realized that with many things, the downside far exceeds the upside. We always hear about the guy who rolled the dice and it turned to gold. We never hear about the guy who rolled the dice and lost everything. There's far more of those guys.

Take, for example, Air Canada's 2013 fiasco leaving the pilots with $50M less than the TA they voted down.

The way to improve compensation in this industry is not to roll the dice and win big one time- it is to make gradual improvements contract over contract. That is finally what is happening in Canada.

Respectfully, that’s a pretty simplistic and revisionist history take on that time period and that contract at AC for someone who wasn’t on property. You’ve been around long enough and should know that.

-Jimmy

[Bede]

Respectfully, that’s a pretty simplistic and revisionist history take on that time period and that contract at AC for someone who wasn’t on property. You’ve been around long enough and should know that.

-Jimmy

Fair comment. Care to expand how it’s simplistic and revisionist? It was only an example to show that sometimes, banging your foot harder results in a worse deal.