Pro's and Con's of Porter

[huskyATR16]

Morning Ladies and Gents,

Looking for a pro/con list of working for Porter. Not looking for inflamed, just accurate. If you worked at Porter in the last couple years or work there now, beyond pay what would be some of your 3 top pro's of the company and 3 con's, again please nothing about the pay.

Cheers!

[fliter]

YTZ CA on the Q400

PROS

1. The people are amazing: interesting, kind, passionate, friendly. The culture is open, egalitarian, safety-oriented. Most of my co-workers really enjoy their job, and I really enjoy working with them. Even with the expansion, the family feel is still there.

2. This is an unpopular opinion these days due to cost of downtown living but I love living downtown and being able to walk to work. And I love the challenge of landing on Canada's only active air carrier while dodging enemy fire... err, Hearn stack.

3. The current expansion is exciting. While there are major issues with how the Q -> E2 flow is treated seniority-wise, I do believe overall it's still a net positive for everyone in the company and is going quite smoothly given its scale over such compressed timelines. I viewed Porter as a stepping stone before the expansion was announced but now I'm leaning towards hanging my hat here despite the cons below.

CONS

1. Messy, confusing, convoluted work rules that company continually "interprets" in their favour, especially when understaffed (as the left seat of the Q has been for a while), and there is no real recourse due to present lack of union.

2. Absolutely terrible IT solutions for everything from bidding to scheduling to payroll. A lot of things are done manually, errors (typically not in your favour) abound, and you have to chase and chase for corrections. E.g., our Staff Travel department until recently consisted of one person, who was so overwhelmed that simple requests like adding a new travel companion to staff benefits would take months. Trades/swaps are basically not a thing, at least for pilots, as it's so clunky and cumbersome, people just gave up and it's not really done. Egregious payroll mistakes happen all the time: e.g., I heard of some people randomly only receiving per diems one pay cycle, while another time an FO who worked 6 hour OT was accidentally paid for 96...

Some positive changes have been seen on the IT front but not nearly enough. Similarly, terrible logistical solutions for things like uniform and luggage to the point of it being an absolute joke and a source of endless frustrations.

3. The very expansion that is so exciting is changing the company culture to be less friendly. To some degree it's inevitable but not to the degree we're seeing. The massive influx of DECs onto the E2 seems to be shaping the jet side of the company into something distinctly different from the Q side and, in my opinion, less pleasant. It used to be seeing a Porter uniform at an airport was an automatic warm and fuzzy "hey, fellow raccoon" interaction, even if you didn't know each other personally. Now it's just as likely to be a "who the eff are you, keep walking, Dash trash, you can't sit with us" kind of vibe. That's not universal, mind you, but it's definitely happening sometimes. I hope Porter doesn't lose what makes it Porter in this expansion.

[huskyATR16]

I really appreciate the in-depth and honest perspective. Thanks very much.

[dogfood]

YTZ CA on the Q400

PROS

1. The people are amazing: interesting, kind, passionate, friendly. The culture is open, egalitarian, safety-oriented. Most of my co-workers really enjoy their job, and I really enjoy working with them. Even with the expansion, the family feel is still there.

2. This is an unpopular opinion these days due to cost of downtown living but I love living downtown and being able to walk to work. And I love the challenge of landing on Canada's only active air carrier while dodging enemy fire... err, Hearn stack.

3. The current expansion is exciting. While there are major issues with how the Q -> E2 flow is treated seniority-wise, I do believe overall it's still a net positive for everyone in the company and is going quite smoothly given its scale over such compressed timelines. I viewed Porter as a stepping stone before the expansion was announced but now I'm leaning towards hanging my hat here despite the cons below.

CONS

1. Messy, confusing, convoluted work rules that company continually "interprets" in their favour, especially when understaffed (as the left seat of the Q has been for a while), and there is no real recourse due to present lack of union.

2. Absolutely terrible IT solutions for everything from bidding to scheduling to payroll. A lot of things are done manually, errors (typically not in your favour) abound, and you have to chase and chase for corrections. E.g., our Staff Travel department until recently consisted of one person, who was so overwhelmed that simple requests like adding a new travel companion to staff benefits would take months. Trades/swaps are basically not a thing, at least for pilots, as it's so clunky and cumbersome, people just gave up and it's not really done. Egregious payroll mistakes happen all the time: e.g., I heard of some people randomly only receiving per diems one pay cycle, while another time an FO who worked 6 hour OT was accidentally paid for 96...

Some positive changes have been seen on the IT front but not nearly enough. Similarly, terrible logistical solutions for things like uniform and luggage to the point of it being an absolute joke and a source of endless frustrations.

3. The very expansion that is so exciting is changing the company culture to be less friendly. To some degree it's inevitable but not to the degree we're seeing. The massive influx of DECs onto the E2 seems to be shaping the jet side of the company into something distinctly different from the Q side and, in my opinion, less pleasant. It used to be seeing a Porter uniform at an airport was an automatic warm and fuzzy "hey, fellow raccoon" interaction, even if you didn't know each other personally. Now it's just as likely to be a "who the eff are you, keep walking, Dash trash, you can't sit with us" kind of vibe. That's not universal, mind you, but it's definitely happening sometimes. I hope Porter doesn't lose what makes it Porter in this expansion.

As a fellow q capt this is 100% spot on

[Chaxterium]

"who the eff are you, keep walking, Dash trash, you can't sit with us" kind of vibe. That's not universal, mind you, but it's definitely happening sometimes. I hope Porter doesn't lose what makes it Porter in this expansion.

I really hope this isn't prevalent. I'm a DEC on the E2 and I've been here for around a year and a half and I haven't seen any sign of this happening and it certainly won't in my presence.

[8895]

Current E2 FO, former YTZ FO.

I think fliter is pretty spot on as well, just to add my own perspective on the E2 side of things…

Pros:
- aircraft are new and nice to fly, they have their quirks but still a huge upgrade from driving the Q imo

- nice variety of flying. I see some pairings where you’re mostly out east, others heading to the west coast, or even from one end to the other some days. With there only being one type in the fleet as you gain seniority you’ve got a nice variety to choose from, I imagine at AC it might not be as diverse since there’s multiple types on routes?

- I know it was already mentioned but.. the people. It certainly isn’t as much of a “family” feel on the jets as it was on the Q but for the most part I really enjoy working with the crews I fly with. With where I’m bidding right now I’m flying with a lot of former Q captains but even with the DEC’s from elsewhere I’d say for the most part they’ve been great. Having one crew (hopefully) throughout the pairing is nice too, makes it easier to build a rapport with the back end and get an idea of how to work more efficiently together.

Cons:
- company needs to stop dragging its feet with things like uniforms and luggage. You can only claim “supply chain issues” for so long

- per diems imo should be higher, and somehow we don’t even have USD per diems yet, which is completely unacceptable. They only very recently introduced euro per diems for if you have your sim training out in Paris or Zurich. This type of penny pinching from the company really needs to stop.

- with our convoluted work rules that often seem up to interpretation, I find new hires can often be taken advantage of, such as CS calling them before their reserve starts, not outwardly mentioning a re-assignment that falls outside their window, etc. it’s a tad predatory imo and our FOAG badly needs to be cleaned up not only with language, but with organization and not having to search through a pile of memos to see what the new rules are this quarter.


You’ll also get all the pros and growing pains associated with any growing airline. I didn’t list being non-unionized in either category because some view it as a pro, while others not so much.

Overall I think I’m planning on staying here. I don’t have a need to fly long haul so unless Porter really drops the ball after the new AC contract I think I’m willing to hang the hat here.

[fliter]

"who the eff are you, keep walking, Dash trash, you can't sit with us" kind of vibe. That's not universal, mind you, but it's definitely happening sometimes. I hope Porter doesn't lose what makes it Porter in this expansion.

I really hope this isn't prevalent. I'm a DEC on the E2 and I've been here for around a year and a half and I haven't seen any sign of this happening and it certainly won't in my presence.

I hope it's not super common but I've run into it and I heard similar stories from others as well.

Even if it's not outright hostility (which it usually probably isn't as most people aren't assholes), it's sometimes confusion of the "why are you talking to me right now?" sort. Which to some degree is inevitable when the company expands so rapidly but it is a little sad to lose that unique Porter vibe.

[MD11]

From the E2 side of things my observations thus far to add to the replies above.

PROS:

1. People and work culture. In general the people you work with, trainers and most of management are wonderful and the environment tends to be positive. Going to work is great especially if you know you have a good pairing and crew. Lot's of knowledge and variety of experiences on the line.

2. Potential to make money. Lot's of open flying and drafts available. Easy flying for the most part and ok layovers.

3. Upgrade program. Potential to go left seat is rather quick with an implemented upgrade program outlined for jet F/O's. Seniority from the Q and integrating those pilots amongst E2 F/O's will likely cause some conflicts down the line. The company will offer ATPL E2 F/O's a Q DEC spot if they want it. Rumor has it for low PIC pilots that may be the pathway before you can go left seat E2 even if you meet the time on type matrix (no thanks).

4. Bases (pro/con). Get in early enough and a base transfer can come quick with split transfers between E2 and Q400 pilots. Everyone starts off as YYZ base so find a crashpad... Company is a bit slow to open up more positions in YVR, YOW and YUL. Lack of YHZ E2 base is a slap in the face to pilots who have been loyal since the beginning.

5. The flying. The job itself is easy going, chill, and the flying is not bad. Some pairings can feel like regional flying but others are single leggers with 24 hr layovers. Mixed bag.

6. ALPA future. Overall opinion of pilots I would say is pro union. The company does things in their favor and create the illusion that they are doing you a favor. Some things they do well but there are often concessions and when the economy tanks we need to be protected. Pro is going from 12 to 13 GDO's soon.

7. Company stability. Loads are high for most destinations and customers seem to enjoy the experience. Should continue to be a success as they grow and improve strategies. Potential to be a career airline for many.

8. New aircraft. It might not be an A321 NEO but it's a pretty good machine. Flying around in a new and safe fleet is something to appreciate as you make whale noises.

CONS:

1. The company is very cheap and ends up paying the price in delays or damages. Lack of staff or properly trained CSR's and ground crews. Too many incidents to count caused by incompetent third party rampies. Stop outsourcing.

2. They advertise decent salaries but all other costs are incurred on you. Example: Uniforms are provided but they cover a tiny percentage of alterations. They say $10 is enough to cover a pair of pants. The fitting process, quality of clothing and department are a disaster.

3. Perdiem. Way below industry standard ($3.70) and there is no USD perdiem rate. Company's response to it is "we are looking at benchmarking". Typical response by the commitee with no timeline or desire to actually implement a liveable perdiem rate. Working overtime seems to be the unofficial solution to help "cover" all expenses out of pocket (which is a lot of things).

4. Pay gap between Captain and F/O is too large. Nothing against the skipper salary but it's a fairly F/O heavy operation and the payscale should definitely be higher. Q400 payscale is a joke (start valuing yourselves higher guys).

5. Training. Absolutely nothing is covered by the company during your training. Everyone starts YYZ based except those senior enough coming off the Q on a base transfer. They will fly you in for 3 days of company indoc in YTZ for the E2 course and set you up for commuting policy (which is a pro). They will assign training like elementary maintenance in YYZ and expect you to get yourself between both airports on your own time and dime. You get a few days off and do a week of labs in YYZ where hotel costs are again on you.

6. Simulator training. As per the above, unless you are going to Zurich or Paris you will not be provided with either a hotel or transportation in Downsview Flight Safety. Ask to be sent abroad to save money and you will be denied. If you live in Toronto and don't commute they will send you overseas. Commuter? Sorry. From personal experience as a commuter, finding a living arrangement and logistics like car rental put a huge strain on focus for training and finances. Even AC provides a hotel as you cry over flat pay. There are discounts for car rentals but still... Training itself is pretty disorganized with conflicting techniques from instructors and the Toronto sim has far too many issues. Stop referencing E1 stuff. This is a totally different aircraft in most aspects.

7. Scheduling, reserve, pairings. Line released? Expect to fly every day on reserve with 1-3 off in between. Western commuters are livid. Reserve rules are garbage and the FOAG will never be in your favor. Former AC employee brought into the company and is implementing the horrendous ACPA regulations and ideology. Pairing construction can be ridiculous such as the 6:50am check in YVR-YYZ-YHZ-YYT landing at 1am at the other end of the country. Crew sched has some unqualified employees and communications can be frustrating. Not open to suggestions or changes that would benefit the company and yourself.

8. Hotels. Some cities accomodation are fine but they can do a lot better especially if they are trying to attract pilots and market themselves as the best airline in Canada. The expats highlight the penny pinching and poor conditions Canadian pilots have (this applies not only to PD).

9. The E195-E2. They didn't opt for a lot of features. Synthetic vision in the PFD? Nope. Moving maps or plates in the screens? Nope. CAT II autoland? Nah. More of a "nice if we had it". Lot's of MEL's which is hard to determine who's fault it is.

The cons list is longer but overall it's not a bad place to be. PD needs to get past its growing pains and start treating employees in all departments seriously with proper working conditions. QofL is as important as a liveable salary. Stop penny pinching, outsourcing IT and third party services and you will see a drastic improvement all over. You're going against AC? Get your mobile app and website working properly. Invest in the stuff that people rely on to get your business. Like the guys above said, I'm willing to hang my hat here but things need to change. I like my job but I have a life outside of work and being a pilot in this economy means I need an attractive lifestyle + wage + conditions.

[Inverted2]

Is it true you have to pay for your own parking in YYZ? Also, what would be a monthly perdiem amount for a block holder on the E195?

[cdnavater]

From the E2 side of things my observations thus far to add to the replies above.

PROS:

1. People and work culture. In general the people you work with, trainers and most of management are wonderful and the environment tends to be positive.

2. Potential to make money. Lot's of open flying and drafts available. Easy flying for the most part and ok layovers.

3. Upgrade program. Potential to go left seat is rather quick with an implemented upgrade program outlined for jet F/O's. Seniority from the Q and integrating those pilots will likely
cause some conflicts down the line however.

4.Bases. Get in early enough and a base transfer can come quick with split transfers between E2 and Q400 pilots. Everyone starts off as YYZ base so find a crashpad... Company is a bit slow to open up more positions in YVR,
YOW and YUL though.

5. The flying. The job itself is easy going and the flying is not bad. Some pairings can feel like regional flying but others are single leggers with 24 hr layovers. Mixed bag.

6. ALPA future. Overall opinion of pilots I would say is pro union. The company does things in their favor and create the illusion that they are doing you a solid. Some things they do well but there are always concessions and when the economy tanks we need to be protected.

7. Company stability. Loads are high for most destinations and customers seem to enjoy the experience. Should continue to be a success as they grow and continue to improve. Potential to be a career airline.

8. New aircraft. It might not be an A321 NEO but it's a pretty good machine. Flying around in a new and safe fleet is something to appreciate.

CONS:

1. The company is very cheap and ends up paying the price in delays or damages. Lack of staff or properly trained CSR's and ground crews. Too many incidents to count caused by incompetent third party rampies. Stop outsourcing.

2. They advertise decent salaries but all other costs are incurred on you. Example: Uniforms are provided but they cover a tiny percentage of alterations. They say $10 is enough to cover a pair of pants. The fitting process, quality of clothing and department are a disaster.

3. Perdiem. Way below industry standard ($3.70) and there is no USD perdiem rate. Company's response to it is "we are looking at benchmarking". Typical response by the commitee with no timeline or desire to actually implement a liveable perdiem rate. Working overtime seems to be their answer to everything to help "cover" all expenses out of pocket (which is a lot of things).

4. Pay gap between Captain and F/O is too large. Nothing against the skipper salary but it's a fairly F/O heavy operation and the payscale should definitely be higher. Q400 payscale is a joke.

5. Training. Absolutely nothing is covered by the company during your training. They will fly you in for 3 days of company indoc in YTZ for the E2 course and set you up for commuting policy (which is a pro). They will assign training like elementary maintenance in YYZ and expect you to get yourself between both airports on your own time and dime. You get a few days off and do a week of labs in YYZ where hotel costs are again on you.

6. Simulator training. As per the above, unless you are going to Zurich or Paris you will not be provided with either a hotel or transportation in Downsview Flight Safety. Ask to be sent abroad to save money and you will be denied. If you live in Toronto and don't commute they will send you overseas. Commuter? Sorry. From personal experience as a commuter, finding a living arrangement and logistics like car rental put a huge strain on focus for training and finances. There are discounts for car rentals but still... Training itself is pretty disorganized with conflicting techniques from instructors and the Toronto sim has far too many issues.

7. Scheduling, reserve, pairings. Line released? Expect to fly every day on reserve. Reserve rules are garbage and the FOAG will never be in your favor. Former AC employee brought into the company and is implementing the horrendous ACPA regulations and ideology. Pairing construction can be garbage such as as the 7am YVR-YYZ-YHZ-YYT landing at 1am on the other end of the country. Crew sched has some unqualified employees and communications can be frustrating.

8. Hotels. Some cities accomodation are fine but they can do a lot better especially if they are trying to attract pilots and market themselves as the best airline in Canada. The expats highlight the penny pinching and poor conditions Canadian pilots have (this applies not only to PD).

9. The E195-E2. They didn't opt for a lot of features. Synthetic vision in the PFD? Nope. Moving maps or plates in the screens? Nope. CAT II autoland? Nah. Lot's of MEL's on all aircraft which is hard to determine who's fault it is.

The cons list is longer but overall it's not a bad place to be. PD needs to get past its growing pains and start treating employees seriously with proper working conditions. QofL is as important as a liveable salary. Stop penny pinching, outsourcing IT, and third party services and you will see a drastic improvement all over.

Wow, based on that con list and a few of the others, hard to see why anyone would go other than for the pay.

[braaap Braap]

I really hope this isn't prevalent. I'm a DEC on the E2 and I've been here for around a year and a half and I haven't seen any sign of this happening and it certainly won't in my presence.

Idk about prevalent but there sure are stories floating around. Especially coming from the checking department.

[Av8andsleep]

This may be either a pro or a con, as I’m sure this question must be asked a lot, but what’s a rough guess on time for those getting onto the Q and want to bid for an E2 spot. Both sides, if you decide to go Q FO to E2 FO and if you go from Q left to E2 left. Rumour is left to left getting in today you’re looking at give or take 4-5 years, whereas FO you’re looking at 2-3 years? Does the company seem to be fulfilling their promises on sending Q people over? And does it look like this may stop at some point

[8895]

From the E2 side of things my observations thus far to add to the replies above.

PROS:

1. People and work culture. In general the people you work with, trainers and most of management are wonderful and the environment tends to be positive.

2. Potential to make money. Lot's of open flying and drafts available. Easy flying for the most part and ok layovers.

3. Upgrade program. Potential to go left seat is rather quick with an implemented upgrade program outlined for jet F/O's. Seniority from the Q and integrating those pilots will likely
cause some conflicts down the line however.

4.Bases. Get in early enough and a base transfer can come quick with split transfers between E2 and Q400 pilots. Everyone starts off as YYZ base so find a crashpad... Company is a bit slow to open up more positions in YVR,
YOW and YUL though.

5. The flying. The job itself is easy going and the flying is not bad. Some pairings can feel like regional flying but others are single leggers with 24 hr layovers. Mixed bag.

6. ALPA future. Overall opinion of pilots I would say is pro union. The company does things in their favor and create the illusion that they are doing you a solid. Some things they do well but there are always concessions and when the economy tanks we need to be protected.

7. Company stability. Loads are high for most destinations and customers seem to enjoy the experience. Should continue to be a success as they grow and continue to improve. Potential to be a career airline.

8. New aircraft. It might not be an A321 NEO but it's a pretty good machine. Flying around in a new and safe fleet is something to appreciate.

CONS:

1. The company is very cheap and ends up paying the price in delays or damages. Lack of staff or properly trained CSR's and ground crews. Too many incidents to count caused by incompetent third party rampies. Stop outsourcing.

2. They advertise decent salaries but all other costs are incurred on you. Example: Uniforms are provided but they cover a tiny percentage of alterations. They say $10 is enough to cover a pair of pants. The fitting process, quality of clothing and department are a disaster.

3. Perdiem. Way below industry standard ($3.70) and there is no USD perdiem rate. Company's response to it is "we are looking at benchmarking". Typical response by the commitee with no timeline or desire to actually implement a liveable perdiem rate. Working overtime seems to be their answer to everything to help "cover" all expenses out of pocket (which is a lot of things).

4. Pay gap between Captain and F/O is too large. Nothing against the skipper salary but it's a fairly F/O heavy operation and the payscale should definitely be higher. Q400 payscale is a joke.

5. Training. Absolutely nothing is covered by the company during your training. They will fly you in for 3 days of company indoc in YTZ for the E2 course and set you up for commuting policy (which is a pro). They will assign training like elementary maintenance in YYZ and expect you to get yourself between both airports on your own time and dime. You get a few days off and do a week of labs in YYZ where hotel costs are again on you.

6. Simulator training. As per the above, unless you are going to Zurich or Paris you will not be provided with either a hotel or transportation in Downsview Flight Safety. Ask to be sent abroad to save money and you will be denied. If you live in Toronto and don't commute they will send you overseas. Commuter? Sorry. From personal experience as a commuter, finding a living arrangement and logistics like car rental put a huge strain on focus for training and finances. There are discounts for car rentals but still... Training itself is pretty disorganized with conflicting techniques from instructors and the Toronto sim has far too many issues.

7. Scheduling, reserve, pairings. Line released? Expect to fly every day on reserve. Reserve rules are garbage and the FOAG will never be in your favor. Former AC employee brought into the company and is implementing the horrendous ACPA regulations and ideology. Pairing construction can be garbage such as as the 7am YVR-YYZ-YHZ-YYT landing at 1am on the other end of the country. Crew sched has some unqualified employees and communications can be frustrating.

8. Hotels. Some cities accomodation are fine but they can do a lot better especially if they are trying to attract pilots and market themselves as the best airline in Canada. The expats highlight the penny pinching and poor conditions Canadian pilots have (this applies not only to PD).

9. The E195-E2. They didn't opt for a lot of features. Synthetic vision in the PFD? Nope. Moving maps or plates in the screens? Nope. CAT II autoland? Nah. Lot's of MEL's on all aircraft which is hard to determine who's fault it is.

The cons list is longer but overall it's not a bad place to be. PD needs to get past its growing pains and start treating employees seriously with proper working conditions. QofL is as important as a liveable salary. Stop penny pinching, outsourcing IT, and third party services and you will see a drastic improvement all over.

Wow, based on that con list and a few of the others, hard to see why anyone would go other than for the pay.

Do you really feel qualified to say that as an old jazz captain? Lol

[Factchkr]

From the E2 side of things my observations thus far to add to the replies above.

PROS:

1. People and work culture. In general the people you work with, trainers and most of management are wonderful and the environment tends to be positive.

2. Potential to make money. Lot's of open flying and drafts available. Easy flying for the most part and ok layovers.

3. Upgrade program. Potential to go left seat is rather quick with an implemented upgrade program outlined for jet F/O's. Seniority from the Q and integrating those pilots will likely
cause some conflicts down the line however.

4.Bases. Get in early enough and a base transfer can come quick with split transfers between E2 and Q400 pilots. Everyone starts off as YYZ base so find a crashpad... Company is a bit slow to open up more positions in YVR,
YOW and YUL though.

5. The flying. The job itself is easy going and the flying is not bad. Some pairings can feel like regional flying but others are single leggers with 24 hr layovers. Mixed bag.

6. ALPA future. Overall opinion of pilots I would say is pro union. The company does things in their favor and create the illusion that they are doing you a solid. Some things they do well but there are always concessions and when the economy tanks we need to be protected.

7. Company stability. Loads are high for most destinations and customers seem to enjoy the experience. Should continue to be a success as they grow and continue to improve. Potential to be a career airline.

8. New aircraft. It might not be an A321 NEO but it's a pretty good machine. Flying around in a new and safe fleet is something to appreciate.

CONS:

1. The company is very cheap and ends up paying the price in delays or damages. Lack of staff or properly trained CSR's and ground crews. Too many incidents to count caused by incompetent third party rampies. Stop outsourcing.

2. They advertise decent salaries but all other costs are incurred on you. Example: Uniforms are provided but they cover a tiny percentage of alterations. They say $10 is enough to cover a pair of pants. The fitting process, quality of clothing and department are a disaster.

3. Perdiem. Way below industry standard ($3.70) and there is no USD perdiem rate. Company's response to it is "we are looking at benchmarking". Typical response by the commitee with no timeline or desire to actually implement a liveable perdiem rate. Working overtime seems to be their answer to everything to help "cover" all expenses out of pocket (which is a lot of things).

4. Pay gap between Captain and F/O is too large. Nothing against the skipper salary but it's a fairly F/O heavy operation and the payscale should definitely be higher. Q400 payscale is a joke.

5. Training. Absolutely nothing is covered by the company during your training. They will fly you in for 3 days of company indoc in YTZ for the E2 course and set you up for commuting policy (which is a pro). They will assign training like elementary maintenance in YYZ and expect you to get yourself between both airports on your own time and dime. You get a few days off and do a week of labs in YYZ where hotel costs are again on you.

6. Simulator training. As per the above, unless you are going to Zurich or Paris you will not be provided with either a hotel or transportation in Downsview Flight Safety. Ask to be sent abroad to save money and you will be denied. If you live in Toronto and don't commute they will send you overseas. Commuter? Sorry. From personal experience as a commuter, finding a living arrangement and logistics like car rental put a huge strain on focus for training and finances. There are discounts for car rentals but still... Training itself is pretty disorganized with conflicting techniques from instructors and the Toronto sim has far too many issues.

7. Scheduling, reserve, pairings. Line released? Expect to fly every day on reserve. Reserve rules are garbage and the FOAG will never be in your favor. Former AC employee brought into the company and is implementing the horrendous ACPA regulations and ideology. Pairing construction can be garbage such as as the 7am YVR-YYZ-YHZ-YYT landing at 1am on the other end of the country. Crew sched has some unqualified employees and communications can be frustrating.

8. Hotels. Some cities accomodation are fine but they can do a lot better especially if they are trying to attract pilots and market themselves as the best airline in Canada. The expats highlight the penny pinching and poor conditions Canadian pilots have (this applies not only to PD).

9. The E195-E2. They didn't opt for a lot of features. Synthetic vision in the PFD? Nope. Moving maps or plates in the screens? Nope. CAT II autoland? Nah. Lot's of MEL's on all aircraft which is hard to determine who's fault it is.

The cons list is longer but overall it's not a bad place to be. PD needs to get past its growing pains and start treating employees seriously with proper working conditions. QofL is as important as a liveable salary. Stop penny pinching, outsourcing IT, and third party services and you will see a drastic improvement all over.

Wow, based on that con list and a few of the others, hard to see why anyone would go other than for the pay.

guys, you are looking at the wrong things. Shakeout coming. in the US Spirit, Southwest and JetBlu are all struggling now because of high compeititon. Spirit doing sale and leasebacks on aircraft not delivered until 2026 to raise cash. Jet Blue debt downgraded and borrowing more money against assets,and US hedge fund Ellioit going after southwest leadership for low profits, southwest expanded too agressively in Covid and now paying the price....airlines use to do bad only in recession, not in good economy.

[cdnavater]

From the E2 side of things my observations thus far to add to the replies above.

PROS:

1. People and work culture. In general the people you work with, trainers and most of management are wonderful and the environment tends to be positive.

2. Potential to make money. Lot's of open flying and drafts available. Easy flying for the most part and ok layovers.

3. Upgrade program. Potential to go left seat is rather quick with an implemented upgrade program outlined for jet F/O's. Seniority from the Q and integrating those pilots will likely
cause some conflicts down the line however.

4.Bases. Get in early enough and a base transfer can come quick with split transfers between E2 and Q400 pilots. Everyone starts off as YYZ base so find a crashpad... Company is a bit slow to open up more positions in YVR,
YOW and YUL though.

5. The flying. The job itself is easy going and the flying is not bad. Some pairings can feel like regional flying but others are single leggers with 24 hr layovers. Mixed bag.

6. ALPA future. Overall opinion of pilots I would say is pro union. The company does things in their favor and create the illusion that they are doing you a solid. Some things they do well but there are always concessions and when the economy tanks we need to be protected.

7. Company stability. Loads are high for most destinations and customers seem to enjoy the experience. Should continue to be a success as they grow and continue to improve. Potential to be a career airline.

8. New aircraft. It might not be an A321 NEO but it's a pretty good machine. Flying around in a new and safe fleet is something to appreciate.

CONS:

1. The company is very cheap and ends up paying the price in delays or damages. Lack of staff or properly trained CSR's and ground crews. Too many incidents to count caused by incompetent third party rampies. Stop outsourcing.

2. They advertise decent salaries but all other costs are incurred on you. Example: Uniforms are provided but they cover a tiny percentage of alterations. They say $10 is enough to cover a pair of pants. The fitting process, quality of clothing and department are a disaster.

3. Perdiem. Way below industry standard ($3.70) and there is no USD perdiem rate. Company's response to it is "we are looking at benchmarking". Typical response by the commitee with no timeline or desire to actually implement a liveable perdiem rate. Working overtime seems to be their answer to everything to help "cover" all expenses out of pocket (which is a lot of things).

4. Pay gap between Captain and F/O is too large. Nothing against the skipper salary but it's a fairly F/O heavy operation and the payscale should definitely be higher. Q400 payscale is a joke.

5. Training. Absolutely nothing is covered by the company during your training. They will fly you in for 3 days of company indoc in YTZ for the E2 course and set you up for commuting policy (which is a pro). They will assign training like elementary maintenance in YYZ and expect you to get yourself between both airports on your own time and dime. You get a few days off and do a week of labs in YYZ where hotel costs are again on you.

6. Simulator training. As per the above, unless you are going to Zurich or Paris you will not be provided with either a hotel or transportation in Downsview Flight Safety. Ask to be sent abroad to save money and you will be denied. If you live in Toronto and don't commute they will send you overseas. Commuter? Sorry. From personal experience as a commuter, finding a living arrangement and logistics like car rental put a huge strain on focus for training and finances. There are discounts for car rentals but still... Training itself is pretty disorganized with conflicting techniques from instructors and the Toronto sim has far too many issues.

7. Scheduling, reserve, pairings. Line released? Expect to fly every day on reserve. Reserve rules are garbage and the FOAG will never be in your favor. Former AC employee brought into the company and is implementing the horrendous ACPA regulations and ideology. Pairing construction can be garbage such as as the 7am YVR-YYZ-YHZ-YYT landing at 1am on the other end of the country. Crew sched has some unqualified employees and communications can be frustrating.

8. Hotels. Some cities accomodation are fine but they can do a lot better especially if they are trying to attract pilots and market themselves as the best airline in Canada. The expats highlight the penny pinching and poor conditions Canadian pilots have (this applies not only to PD).

9. The E195-E2. They didn't opt for a lot of features. Synthetic vision in the PFD? Nope. Moving maps or plates in the screens? Nope. CAT II autoland? Nah. Lot's of MEL's on all aircraft which is hard to determine who's fault it is.

The cons list is longer but overall it's not a bad place to be. PD needs to get past its growing pains and start treating employees seriously with proper working conditions. QofL is as important as a liveable salary. Stop penny pinching, outsourcing IT, and third party services and you will see a drastic improvement all over.

Wow, based on that con list and a few of the others, hard to see why anyone would go other than for the pay.

Do you really feel qualified to say that as an old jazz captain? Lol

Yes, because we have what’s called a mature contract that prevents most of the abuse and constant changing a work rules when the FOAG agrees to help out the company!
The way I see it, Jazz has many, many things that are much better than Porter, the only thing better there is the pay and that is only on the E2 side, I suspect the amount of Jazz pilots leaving for Porter has more or less gone down to a trickle and that would likely only be those on the flow program that have been rejected by AC, I have encountered many who plan on staying at Jazz if AC doesn’t take them.
I also see improvements on the horizon, I noticed the pairings for the YYZ RJ in September have some decent credit, YVR not as good. Things are slowing down, I can’t imagine Porter is receiving tons of DEC ready applications these days.
I suspect after ready this thread, APLA is a likely outcome at your shop, my prediction is 6-12 months maybe sooner!

[cjp]

Wow, based on that con list and a few of the others, hard to see why anyone would go other than for the pay.

Do you really feel qualified to say that as an old jazz captain? Lol

Yes, because we have what’s called a mature contract that prevents most of the abuse and constant changing a work rules when the FOAG agrees to help out the company!
The way I see it, Jazz has many, many things that are much better than Porter, the only thing better there is the pay and that is only on the E2 side, I suspect the amount of Jazz pilots leaving for Porter has more or less gone down to a trickle and that would likely only be those on the flow program that have been rejected by AC, I have encountered many who plan on staying at Jazz if AC doesn’t take them.
I also see improvements on the horizon, I noticed the pairings for the YYZ RJ in September have some decent credit, YVR not as good. Things are slowing down, I can’t imagine Porter is receiving tons of DEC ready applications these days.
I suspect after ready this thread, APLA is a likely outcome at your shop, my prediction is 6-12 months maybe sooner!

It sounds like we've paused DEC hiring for the near future. Last 2 classes I think we're only FOs or internal Dash Captain transfers, with one external exception. That's by design, not a lack of candidates.

Haven't heard much about ALPA these days, been mighty quiet. I'd imagine everything hangs on their ability to generate a 'WCC' contract at Big Red.

What would you say is dramatically better or different that makes people want to stay at Jazz over a big raise at Porter? (skipping the obvious potential to flow to AC)

[braaap Braap]

Wow, based on that con list and a few of the others, hard to see why anyone would go other than for the pay.

How about getting to fly with DukeNukem? Is that enough of a pro for you?

[cdnavater]

Wow, based on that con list and a few of the others, hard to see why anyone would go other than for the pay.

How about getting to fly with DukeNukem? Is that enough of a pro for you?

I’m sure that would go well:-

[cdnavater]

Do you really feel qualified to say that as an old jazz captain? Lol

Yes, because we have what’s called a mature contract that prevents most of the abuse and constant changing a work rules when the FOAG agrees to help out the company!
The way I see it, Jazz has many, many things that are much better than Porter, the only thing better there is the pay and that is only on the E2 side, I suspect the amount of Jazz pilots leaving for Porter has more or less gone down to a trickle and that would likely only be those on the flow program that have been rejected by AC, I have encountered many who plan on staying at Jazz if AC doesn’t take them.
I also see improvements on the horizon, I noticed the pairings for the YYZ RJ in September have some decent credit, YVR not as good. Things are slowing down, I can’t imagine Porter is receiving tons of DEC ready applications these days.
I suspect after ready this thread, APLA is a likely outcome at your shop, my prediction is 6-12 months maybe sooner!

It sounds like we've paused DEC hiring for the near future. Last 2 classes I think we're only FOs or internal Dash Captain transfers, with one external exception. That's by design, not a lack of candidates.

Haven't heard much about ALPA these days, been mighty quiet. I'd imagine everything hangs on their ability to generate a 'WCC' contract at Big Red.

What would you say is dramatically better or different that makes people want to stay at Jazz over a big raise at Porter? (skipping the obvious potential to flow to AC)

Most of the remaining Captains are DB pension, the remaining are AC bound(the obvious) and after that perhaps a mature company with a mature contract and long term benefits of a union.
Your FOAG scares a lot of potential candidates, especially when you hear of them giving the company a kind of a carte blanche to do whatever it wants.
To reiterate what has been said in the past, the company can’t just arbitrarily reduce the pay rates but the FOAG can agree to it for the long term stability of the company and the company knows this, when the growth machine comes to a halt and you’re no longer in attraction mode, this is a very real possibility, as far as I can tell. Recent stories like in this thread are a kind of proof of that.
If I were there, make no mistake I’d be leading the charge to get ALPA on property, of course that could easily get a guy fired since I doubt the FOAG would protect you in this instance, so maybe no ALPA. It will take a few brave souls to start this in motion

[CaptDukeNukem]

Wow, based on that con list and a few of the others, hard to see why anyone would go other than for the pay.

How about getting to fly with DukeNukem? Is that enough of a pro for you?

Lol. I’m flattered. Thanks

[PRM1]

I think the important thing to note here is that the majority of the commenters have been on property at Porter for a max of 2 years.

For whatever reasons they moved to porter, it is a likely guarantee that they were chasing money.

One thing you will not find on this thread are Porter pilots that have been with the company since before covid. Most of us are quite happy to come to work.

The one big con is the division among pilots that was wedged by a small number of E2 DECs, including ACPs, who felt it was appropriate to refer to Dash pilots as “Dash Trash”. One can only assume it’s because they feel threatened by the fact that their seniority will continue to drop until every last dash pilot that put in their time in the years before the E2 transfer over.

The claims of E2 pilots not acknowledging their Dash counterparts when crossing paths is very real and that kind of attitude never existed at Porter prior to the arrival of the Jets.

Porter used to be a place where nobody came to work with a chip on their shoulder. But now as we add pilots like MD11, who likely have little to no 705 experience prior to Porter on their resume, everybody is bent out of shape and expecting ALPA to save the day.

Newsflash, ALPA isn’t the silver bullet y’all think it is. Time to grow up.

[braaap Braap]

I think the important thing to note here is that the majority of the commenters have been on property at Porter for a max of 2 years.

For whatever reasons they moved to porter, it is a likely guarantee that they were chasing money.

One thing you will not find on this thread are Porter pilots that have been with the company since before covid. Most of us are quite happy to come to work.

The one big con is the division among pilots that was wedged by a small number of E2 DECs, including ACPs, who felt it was appropriate to refer to Dash pilots as “Dash Trash”. One can only assume it’s because they feel threatened by the fact that their seniority will continue to drop until every last dash pilot that put in their time in the years before the E2 transfer over.

The claims of E2 pilots not acknowledging their Dash counterparts when crossing paths is very real and that kind of attitude never existed at Porter prior to the arrival of the Jets.

Porter used to be a place where nobody came to work with a chip on their shoulder. But now as we add pilots like MD11, who likely have little to no 705 experience prior to Porter on their resume, everybody is bent out of shape and expecting ALPA to save the day.

Newsflash, ALPA isn’t the silver bullet y’all think it is. Time to grow up.

How can you bring up the “one big con” and then perpetuate it by splitting between pre/post Covid?

ALPA may not be a silver bullet but being backstopped by a contract is way better than this FOAG one step forward one step back concessionary garbage we’ve had the last year or so.

[CaptDukeNukem]

I think the important thing to note here is that the majority of the commenters have been on property at Porter for a max of 2 years.

For whatever reasons they moved to porter, it is a likely guarantee that they were chasing money.

One thing you will not find on this thread are Porter pilots that have been with the company since before covid. Most of us are quite happy to come to work.

The one big con is the division among pilots that was wedged by a small number of E2 DECs, including ACPs, who felt it was appropriate to refer to Dash pilots as “Dash Trash”. One can only assume it’s because they feel threatened by the fact that their seniority will continue to drop until every last dash pilot that put in their time in the years before the E2 transfer over.

The claims of E2 pilots not acknowledging their Dash counterparts when crossing paths is very real and that kind of attitude never existed at Porter prior to the arrival of the Jets.

Porter used to be a place where nobody came to work with a chip on their shoulder. But now as we add pilots like MD11, who likely have little to no 705 experience prior to Porter on their resume, everybody is bent out of shape and expecting ALPA to save the day.

Newsflash, ALPA isn’t the silver bullet y’all think it is. Time to grow up.

I don’t think any DEC has any problem accepting the fact that all people hired on property before them will potentially parachute in front of them. Such assumptions are useless in these discussions. Every one knows how seniority works. I have never heard the term “dash trash” thrown on the line. We’ve all flown smaller aircraft to get to where we are.

[PRM1]

Very few do. But I seem to remember an attempt to split the seniority list in the early days of the E2 operation.

And “Dash Trash” has been openly used in a training environment which is even more despicable.

[CaptDukeNukem]

Very few do. But I seem to remember an attempt to split the seniority list in the early days of the E2 operation.

And “Dash Trash” has been openly used in a training environment which is even more despicable.

That was a loose attempt from like 2 early DEC people that no longer work at the company cuz they don’t know how seniority lists work.

I hope more dash folks get to slide over to the jet soon. I welcome them and they’ve been great. It’s been too slow of a transition in my opinion, but seems to be getting a little better…. Maybe?