Want American Salaries? Move to America

[Flight94]

It's unfortunate that each time I read about AC in the news regarding the strike, the only salary given is the top, not alot of mention of the bottom. I'd assume this was a management influenced article.

I'm also tired of the healthcare argument. I've lived in both countries, and the healthcare was much better in the US. My employer paid the insurance premiums, and I'd assume most US airlines would too.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/busines ... y-move-to/


Air Canada pilots want American salaries. But they are not in America
Ashley Nunes
Special to The Globe and Mail


National carrier Air Canada AC-T, and its low-cost subsidiary Rouge, are set to halt operations as C-suite and union execs bicker over wages.

Air Canada’s pilots want to close the salary gap with their higher-earning American peers. Canadian aviators make up to $352,000, with their last 10-year contracts having 2-per-cent annual raises. American peers not only earn more but have, since 2023, secured hefty salary hikes of up to 34 per cent over four years.

While reiterating that “there is still time to reach an agreement with our pilot group,” the airline has called the wage expectations of the Air Line Pilots Association “inflexible.”

I don’t exactly agree. These expectations by Air Canada pilots aren’t inflexible. What they are is economically illiterate.

Arguing that workers in one country should earn the same as workers performing similar work in another country reflects a belief that salaries are (or at least should be) based on solely the value of labour provided: An Air Canada pilot flying passengers from Toronto to Chicago should earn the same as a United Airlines pilot flying passengers on the same route.

“We’re flying the same passengers in the same airspace on some of the very same routes, and those pilots are being compensated dramatically more than us,” one union exec noted. What the airline should do – according to the union – is purge expectations that its pilots continue to accept “below-market compensation.”

At least one flier agrees. “When you’re sitting beside a plane that’s on the tarmac and it’s a United flight, for instance, and flying to the same city as you are, and that pilot sitting in the front gets twice as much money as you do, I don’t think that’s fair,” the jetsetter noted.

But wages represent more than the value of labour alone. Your salary also reflects (among other things) the cost of living when you are not at work, the perks your organization offers and the benefits the government offers.

On each of these points, Americans fare worse. The cost of living in the United States is generally higher than it is in Canada, organizational perks – think job security and severance pay, to name a few – pale in comparison with what Canadians are used to and American health care is – to put it mildly – a mess. Without anything akin to Canada’s universal health care system, nearly 80 million Americans have medical bills they can’t afford and one in 12 Americans report losing their homes in part because of these debts. Put simply, Americans, be they bartenders, burger flippers or pilots, need to earn more because the expenses they incur are far heftier.

Pressing for wage hikes is understandable. Why earn less when you can earn more. Arguing that wages haven’t kept up with inflation is also reasonable. Why? Because they clearly haven’t. Data from Statistics Canada show that many Canadians have seen their “real wages” – how much we earn after accounting for inflation – have dropped. Maybe Air Canada pilots should indeed be paid more than their paltry top end of $352,000.

But arguing that workers in one country should earn as much as workers performing the same work in another defies economic logic. While union execs argue that a pay hike is about fairness and equity, what they are really asking for is a better deal than their American counterparts. A deal that – given cost of living differences between the Canada and the U.S. – allows Canadian pilots to earn more than their southern neighbours, while spending less.

So much for equity.

In the meantime, it is the passengers who suffer. If both parties don’t reach an agreement, a shutdown could ensue. By some estimates, a three-day strike by Air Canada’s 5,200 pilots risks the cancellation of more than 2,000 flights, disrupting the travel plans of over 300,000 passengers. The airline has called this scenario “increasingly likely.”

All packed up, no place to go. Those seven words could soon describe the plight of thousands of fliers across Canada.

[truedude]

It's unfortunate that each time I read about AC in the news regarding the strike, the only salary given is the top, not alot of mention of the bottom. I'd assume this was a management influenced article.

I'm also tired of the healthcare argument. I've lived in both countries, and the healthcare was much better in the US. My employer paid the insurance premiums, and I'd assume most US airlines would too.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/busines ... y-move-to/


Air Canada pilots want American salaries. But they are not in America
Ashley Nunes
Special to The Globe and Mail


National carrier Air Canada AC-T, and its low-cost subsidiary Rouge, are set to halt operations as C-suite and union execs bicker over wages.

Air Canada’s pilots want to close the salary gap with their higher-earning American peers. Canadian aviators make up to $352,000, with their last 10-year contracts having 2-per-cent annual raises. American peers not only earn more but have, since 2023, secured hefty salary hikes of up to 34 per cent over four years.

While reiterating that “there is still time to reach an agreement with our pilot group,” the airline has called the wage expectations of the Air Line Pilots Association “inflexible.”

I don’t exactly agree. These expectations by Air Canada pilots aren’t inflexible. What they are is economically illiterate.

Arguing that workers in one country should earn the same as workers performing similar work in another country reflects a belief that salaries are (or at least should be) based on solely the value of labour provided: An Air Canada pilot flying passengers from Toronto to Chicago should earn the same as a United Airlines pilot flying passengers on the same route.

“We’re flying the same passengers in the same airspace on some of the very same routes, and those pilots are being compensated dramatically more than us,” one union exec noted. What the airline should do – according to the union – is purge expectations that its pilots continue to accept “below-market compensation.”

At least one flier agrees. “When you’re sitting beside a plane that’s on the tarmac and it’s a United flight, for instance, and flying to the same city as you are, and that pilot sitting in the front gets twice as much money as you do, I don’t think that’s fair,” the jetsetter noted.

But wages represent more than the value of labour alone. Your salary also reflects (among other things) the cost of living when you are not at work, the perks your organization offers and the benefits the government offers.

On each of these points, Americans fare worse. The cost of living in the United States is generally higher than it is in Canada, organizational perks – think job security and severance pay, to name a few – pale in comparison with what Canadians are used to and American health care is – to put it mildly – a mess. Without anything akin to Canada’s universal health care system, nearly 80 million Americans have medical bills they can’t afford and one in 12 Americans report losing their homes in part because of these debts. Put simply, Americans, be they bartenders, burger flippers or pilots, need to earn more because the expenses they incur are far heftier.

Pressing for wage hikes is understandable. Why earn less when you can earn more. Arguing that wages haven’t kept up with inflation is also reasonable. Why? Because they clearly haven’t. Data from Statistics Canada show that many Canadians have seen their “real wages” – how much we earn after accounting for inflation – have dropped. Maybe Air Canada pilots should indeed be paid more than their paltry top end of $352,000.

But arguing that workers in one country should earn as much as workers performing the same work in another defies economic logic. While union execs argue that a pay hike is about fairness and equity, what they are really asking for is a better deal than their American counterparts. A deal that – given cost of living differences between the Canada and the U.S. – allows Canadian pilots to earn more than their southern neighbours, while spending less.

So much for equity.

In the meantime, it is the passengers who suffer. If both parties don’t reach an agreement, a shutdown could ensue. By some estimates, a three-day strike by Air Canada’s 5,200 pilots risks the cancellation of more than 2,000 flights, disrupting the travel plans of over 300,000 passengers. The airline has called this scenario “increasingly likely.”

All packed up, no place to go. Those seven words could soon describe the plight of thousands of fliers across Canada.

That is some solid class A BS right there. Feels like managment is getting desperate. Hope they like seeing parked airplanes.

[sullecpt]

What's his motive? Mr Harvard

[goingnowherefast]

That article lost all credibility in half a sentence. "The cost of living in the United States is generally higher than it is in Canada...". Pretty sure everyone knows that isn't true. Cross border shopping is pretty common because goods are cheaper. Taxes are lower. Sure healthcare is a lot more, but any reasonable employer has health benefits. 80% of readers will see right through that and stop reading.

Maybe AC paid off that reporter. Maybe he's just trying to create an opinion piece, albeit with poor research, to fill space. Who knows. It's got no credibility.

[crystalpizza]

Ignore Ashley Nunes.

[DanWEC]

He's just a paid shill. He's written a number of repetitive anti-labour opinion pieces for the Globe during each Canadian airline industry negotiation. He's a piece of garbage as far as I'm concerned, as it's directly affecting our livelihood.

[Inverted2]

The cost of living down there is way less due to the fact the government doesn’t STEAL half your pay cheque. The price of food and goods is comparable but then again you’re paid in USD. Our heath care system is a joke. If you need a CT scan here you wait half a year. Down there you can get one the same week if you have coverage.

[loose]

This article is toxic, insulting almost! I hope AC had nothing to do with its contents coz now I really wish you guys strike and leave stay home until every single demand is met…it’s not like you’re asking for anything unreasonable anyways. I hope everyone understands that you will eventually get what you are asking for if only you don’t budge. It’s a house of cards without pilots, remember that!

[daedalusx]

So 2003 wages adjusted for today somehow means American salaries .. what an odd argument

[rudder]

It's unfortunate that each time I read about AC in the news regarding the strike, the only salary given is the top, not alot of mention of the bottom. I'd assume this was a management influenced article.

I'm also tired of the healthcare argument. I've lived in both countries, and the healthcare was much better in the US. My employer paid the insurance premiums, and I'd assume most US airlines would too.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/busines ... y-move-to/


Air Canada pilots want American salaries. But they are not in America
Ashley Nunes
Special to The Globe and Mail


National carrier Air Canada AC-T, and its low-cost subsidiary Rouge, are set to halt operations as C-suite and union execs bicker over wages.

Air Canada’s pilots want to close the salary gap with their higher-earning American peers. Canadian aviators make up to $352,000, with their last 10-year contracts having 2-per-cent annual raises. American peers not only earn more but have, since 2023, secured hefty salary hikes of up to 34 per cent over four years.

While reiterating that “there is still time to reach an agreement with our pilot group,” the airline has called the wage expectations of the Air Line Pilots Association “inflexible.”

I don’t exactly agree. These expectations by Air Canada pilots aren’t inflexible. What they are is economically illiterate.

Arguing that workers in one country should earn the same as workers performing similar work in another country reflects a belief that salaries are (or at least should be) based on solely the value of labour provided: An Air Canada pilot flying passengers from Toronto to Chicago should earn the same as a United Airlines pilot flying passengers on the same route.

“We’re flying the same passengers in the same airspace on some of the very same routes, and those pilots are being compensated dramatically more than us,” one union exec noted. What the airline should do – according to the union – is purge expectations that its pilots continue to accept “below-market compensation.”

At least one flier agrees. “When you’re sitting beside a plane that’s on the tarmac and it’s a United flight, for instance, and flying to the same city as you are, and that pilot sitting in the front gets twice as much money as you do, I don’t think that’s fair,” the jetsetter noted.

But wages represent more than the value of labour alone. Your salary also reflects (among other things) the cost of living when you are not at work, the perks your organization offers and the benefits the government offers.

On each of these points, Americans fare worse. The cost of living in the United States is generally higher than it is in Canada, organizational perks – think job security and severance pay, to name a few – pale in comparison with what Canadians are used to and American health care is – to put it mildly – a mess. Without anything akin to Canada’s universal health care system, nearly 80 million Americans have medical bills they can’t afford and one in 12 Americans report losing their homes in part because of these debts. Put simply, Americans, be they bartenders, burger flippers or pilots, need to earn more because the expenses they incur are far heftier.

Pressing for wage hikes is understandable. Why earn less when you can earn more. Arguing that wages haven’t kept up with inflation is also reasonable. Why? Because they clearly haven’t. Data from Statistics Canada show that many Canadians have seen their “real wages” – how much we earn after accounting for inflation – have dropped. Maybe Air Canada pilots should indeed be paid more than their paltry top end of $352,000.

But arguing that workers in one country should earn as much as workers performing the same work in another defies economic logic. While union execs argue that a pay hike is about fairness and equity, what they are really asking for is a better deal than their American counterparts. A deal that – given cost of living differences between the Canada and the U.S. – allows Canadian pilots to earn more than their southern neighbours, while spending less.

So much for equity.

In the meantime, it is the passengers who suffer. If both parties don’t reach an agreement, a shutdown could ensue. By some estimates, a three-day strike by Air Canada’s 5,200 pilots risks the cancellation of more than 2,000 flights, disrupting the travel plans of over 300,000 passengers. The airline has called this scenario “increasingly likely.”

All packed up, no place to go. Those seven words could soon describe the plight of thousands of fliers across Canada.

This writers opinion doesn’t matter.

It doesn’t matter.

Move on.

[ads-b]

There’s no way this writer lives in the USA. Everything about that article is incorrect or embellished. I lived in the USA for 4 years and want to go back. Almost everything is cheaper and health care is substantially better.

He must be paid off the write that? How did the globe even post that nonsense?

[Bede]

If you need a CT scan here you wait half a year. Down there you can get one the same week if you have coverage.

Same week? More like same day.

I was in a US hospital a little bit ago chatting up a nurse.
Me: Say I needed a hip replacement, would there be a wait?
Nurse: Well, yes. You'd have to wait until the afternoon when the anesthetist is available.
No joke.

[digits_]

If you need a CT scan here you wait half a year. Down there you can get one the same week if you have coverage.

Same week? More like same day.

I was in a US hospital a little bit ago chatting up a nurse.
Me: Say I needed a hip replacement, would there be a wait?
Nurse: Well, yes. You'd have to wait until the afternoon when the anesthetist is available.
No joke.

I think you're all focusing on the wrong factor regarding US healthcare. I don't think anyone diagrees the quality of healthcare, and perhaps the waiting lists are better organized. It's the insurance side of things where things can go really wrong.

To take your hip replacement surgery. If you're willing to pay for it, I am sure that reasoning is valid and you can have one right away in certain hospitals. If you're hoping to go through insurance, you better have a job, and a doctor who can convince the insurance company you actually need it, a hospital in your network that has a spot available and probably 20k to pay your deductible.

In Canada, if your doctor says you need one, you'll get one, but you'll have to wait, possibly a long time.

[munzil]

[

I think you're all focusing on the wrong factor regarding US healthcare. I don't think anyone diagrees the quality of healthcare, and perhaps the waiting lists are better organized. It's the insurance side of things where things can go really wrong.

To take your hip replacement surgery. If you're willing to pay for it, I am sure that reasoning is valid and you can have one right away in certain hospitals. If you're hoping to go through insurance, you better have a job, and a doctor who can convince the insurance company you actually need it, a hospital in your network that has a spot available and probably 20k to pay your deductible.

In Canada, if your doctor says you need one, you'll get one, but you'll have to wait, possibly a long time.

Lived in the states for 8 years. From another developed country with socialized medicine. Now live in Quebec. The US was by far the best medical care I have seen (with insurance). There is no chance you will pay 20 k for a deductible with a standard plan. At most you would pay 3k but more likely to pay $500. Some good plans you would pay no deductible for an in network surgery. If it is out of network, that would be something else, though I have never experienced out of network.

And the doctor negotiating thing I have never seen either.

Quebec medical care I would compare to going to a hospital in the 70s. That is if you are ever able to get to see a doctor in the first place. I have been to a lot of countries in my time and I have experienced better medical services in the heart of Africa than I experience in Quebec.

[jpilot77]

If you need a CT scan here you wait half a year. Down there you can get one the same week if you have coverage.

Same week? More like same day.

I was in a US hospital a little bit ago chatting up a nurse.
Me: Say I needed a hip replacement, would there be a wait?
Nurse: Well, yes. You'd have to wait until the afternoon when the anesthetist is available.
No joke.

I think you're all focusing on the wrong factor regarding US healthcare. I don't think anyone diagrees the quality of healthcare, and perhaps the waiting lists are better organized. It's the insurance side of things where things can go really wrong.

To take your hip replacement surgery. If you're willing to pay for it, I am sure that reasoning is valid and you can have one right away in certain hospitals. If you're hoping to go through insurance, you better have a job, and a doctor who can convince the insurance company you actually need it, a hospital in your network that has a spot available and probably 20k to pay your deductible.

In Canada, if your doctor says you need one, you'll get one, but you'll have to wait, possibly a long time.

https://nationalpost.com/news/canadian ... port-finds

https://vancouversun.com/opinion/colum ... ting-lists

If the choice is debt or death I know which one I’d choose.

[TCAS II]

That article lost all credibility in half a sentence. "The cost of living in the United States is generally higher than it is in Canada...". Pretty sure everyone knows that isn't true. Cross border shopping is pretty common because goods are cheaper. Taxes are lower. Sure healthcare is a lot more, but any reasonable employer has health benefits. 80% of readers will see right through that and stop reading.

Maybe AC paid off that reporter. Maybe he's just trying to create an opinion piece, albeit with poor research, to fill space. Who knows. It's got no credibility.

Agree, and people just believe what they read. At one point, Canadian pilots earned the same as US pilots.

He says he’s worried about the passengers suffering. Two ways to fix the ticket price, government taxes and airport “improvement” fees. (Two things that this contract has nothing to do with)

The company made 1.6 billion profit last year, there is money available to pay their pilots.
The company paid their execs $10 million and their CEO $12.4 million. AC CEO compared himself to US airline CEOs but the company (nor this one article writer) doesn’t consider the pilots comparable. I have to laugh.

World Class Airline - World Class Contract

[Launchpad1]

Quebec medical care I would compare to going to a hospital in the 70s. That is if you are ever able to get to see a doctor in the first place. I have been to a lot of countries in my time and I have experienced better medical devices in the heart of Africa that I experience in Quebec.

Agreed, the Quebec healthcare system is an absolute disgrace. There are no walk in clinics anymore, just a ridiculous online system that never has availability. You have to pretty much go to ER for anything. Once there you will wait hours upon hours and then get a super bad service at the end of it.

As long as you have insurance in the US you are much much better off.

Also it depends where you live in the US as to the cost of living. Unless you're living in the middle of Manhattan or San Fransisco the cost of living (housing) is much better in the US.

If this writer actually believes what he has written then he seriously needs to go back to journalist school.

[Red_Comet]

Overt corporate shilling like this in an era where cost of living has become the #1 issue is going to lead to severe backlash. The previous generations were nice, polite, happy Canadians because Canada had the highest standard of living post WW2 to the 90s. That has rapidly changed, and is going to continue changing. We are going to see an era reminiscent of the roaring 20s and what came after if this continues.

"Capitalism" means very different things at different times. Right now, it is total corporate capture of all regulatory, legislative and democratic mechanisms. This will have consequences.

[BE02 Driver]

I think you're all focusing on the wrong factor regarding US healthcare. I don't think anyone diagrees the quality of healthcare, and perhaps the waiting lists are better organized. It's the insurance side of things where things can go really wrong.

To take your hip replacement surgery. If you're willing to pay for it, I am sure that reasoning is valid and you can have one right away in certain hospitals. If you're hoping to go through insurance, you better have a job, and a doctor who can convince the insurance company you actually need it, a hospital in your network that has a spot available and probably 20k to pay your deductible.

In Canada, if your doctor says you need one, you'll get one, but you'll have to wait, possibly a long time.

You are a victim of Canadian indoctrination re: healthcare. The 3 largest lies Canadians tell themselves about the USA center around Healthcare, Education and Firearms. I was a victim of this too before I moved.

Yes, the quality is so much better it hardly even looks like the same product. There are no waiting lists. You just book an appointment. Usually within the same week, rarely outside of a month.

You can have any procedure quickly regardless if you pay out of pocket or use insurance. There is a wide variety of specialists "In Network". Finding "In Network" is not a problem.

There is no need to convince insurance of any "Need". A lot of insurance plans don't even require referral to specialized services and Doctors, you just make an appointment and go.

I'll compare in a way that is as Apples to Apples as possible. POS (Point of Service) health insurance resembles the Canadian way of paying the most, and is the type of insurance I choose through my employer. My employer offers 4 different insurance options as an example. You pay a monthly premium and then when you see a doctor you pay a copay and that's it. No deductible. I pay $692/month for my entire family (Medical, Dental and Vision) and less than $20 per visit. That works out to a little under 4% of my actual gross pay. Add my 7% income tax (I live in an income tax free state), and you can see I'm way further ahead than my Canadian counter parts. If you include Social Security "Tax" and Medicaire "Tax", I pay 12% in taxes. So my combine cost are under 16% and I get to see the Dr. I want, when I want.

[Dockjock]

Allegedly there are low single digits of pilot applicants on file that meet Air Canada's stated minimum requirements. Requirements that have been dropping for 10 years. Post secondary education? No longer required. 4000 flight hours? Try 2000. Multi engine experience? No. And AC needs to hire...500 pilots in the coming 24 months?

Pilots are already silently taking this gentleman's advice, if they even bother entertaining aviation as a career at all.

[fish4life]

It’s alright once you get into the comments on the article you can see he’s getting absolutely roasted for his out of touch article. Public is on side with the AC pilots.

[jpilot77]

Supposedly the author is a consultant for ATAC.

[Handover]

Supposedly the author is a consultant for ATAC.

Source?

[khedrei]

It’s alright once you get into the comments on the article you can see he’s getting absolutely roasted for his out of touch article. Public is on side with the AC pilots.

You pay for the globe and mail? Really?