Recall of the NC

[itsgrosswhatinet]

How do we get this done?

[Slugger]

Seriously?

[daedalusx]

Friendship ended with Charlene, now Rovinescu is my best friend

[khedrei]

Seriously?

Not only is it a good idea, it seems absolutely necessary given the turd pile they were presented.

The team basically said screw you to 80% of the FOs

[JustaCanadian]

Wow how quick people turn on their union....

They went from trust the process, and only a good TA will be presented to abandon ship!

I think the CEO is laughing right now as he is about to get another raise on top the 233 percent if you guys and gals can't keep it together.

[daedalusx]

Wow how quick people turn on their union....

They went from trust the process, and only a good TA will be presented to abandon ship!

I think the CEO is laughing right now as he is about to get another raise on top the 233 percent if you guys and gals can't keep it together.

To be honest I’d be laughing too if I was him. And I’d certainly vote to give him a well deserved raise, he definitely represented the best interests of the AC shareholders.

[JustaCanadian]

Definitely going to be some company shills pretending to be pilots coming online trying to get division going.

Hopefully AC pilots figure it out and have a strong yes or no to show unity. Can't imagine dismantling ALPA reps at this point will do any good to improve on the TA.

[digits_]

Don't worry, if past results are any indication they'll threaten to resign anyway if the TA doesn't pass

[Bede]

Not only is it a good idea, it seems absolutely necessary given the turd pile they were presented.

The team basically said screw you to 80% of the FOs

And replace them with whom?

[Dias]

Hopefully professional negotiaters.

[khedrei]

Not only is it a good idea, it seems absolutely necessary given the turd pile they were presented.

The team basically said screw you to 80% of the FOs

And replace them with whom?

People who represent everyone at AC not just the senior captains would be a start...

[khedrei]

First year captains make between 3-4 times what first year FOs make. Pretty obvious who was doing the negotiating. If you guys want a fair deal, these guys need to go.

[Ash Ketchum]

Industry standard FO pay is 50-66% of captain pay. This is an embarrassment, I have lost all respect for the negotiating committee.

[khedrei]

Industry standard FO pay is 50-66% of captain pay. This is an embarrassment, I have lost all respect for the negotiating committee.

So you're leaving when this gets voted in?

[Jfthepilot]

Let’s be honest here. The MEC chair did an outstanding job at rallying the troops and getting us united. I give credit where it’s due.

I’m not 100% convinced she was the best choice to be the media spokesperson tho. Same for the YUL vice-chair in french. Both of them should have had a PR firm guiding them thru the process of media relations.

As for the negotiations itself, a big fail from the MEC to present this. So many major items still missing: low initial pay (expected to be 85k+ by many), training on days off, bid for reserve periods, DH credits and vacation credits (c’mon, this was so @#$!!ng easy to fix).

This is a NO for me. Make the roadshow quick so we can rebuild the unity and energy we are slowly losing.

[Bede]

Hopefully professional negotiaters.

I can say with absolute certainty that you don't want professional negotiators. Professional negotiators will get you a deal. But, they will spend most of their time "managing expectations" and convincing you what's good for you.

[Bede]

Not only is it a good idea, it seems absolutely necessary given the turd pile they were presented.

The team basically said screw you to 80% of the FOs

And replace them with whom?

People who represent everyone at AC not just the senior captains would be a start...

That's fair. The problem is that there are very few pilots a) can develop the emotional skills to do the job effectively, b) are willing to bear the opprobrium of their colleagues when things go south, and c) are willing to sacrifice their family time to do this work.

With regards to a), negotiating isn't inherently difficult, but there are many reasons why most pilots would struggle with the process. For one, pilots are accustomed to, and demand, perfection from themselves, and the outcome. By contrast, negotiating is generally a process of compromise and "good enough".

[khedrei]

And replace them with whom?

People who represent everyone at AC not just the senior captains would be a start...

That's fair. The problem is that there are very few pilots a) can develop the emotional skills to do the job effectively, b) are willing to bear the opprobrium of their colleagues when things go south, and c) are willing to sacrifice their family time to do this work.

With regards to a), negotiating isn't inherently difficult, but there are many reasons why most pilots would struggle with the process. For one, pilots are accustomed to, and demand, perfection from themselves, and the outcome. By contrast, negotiating is generally a process of compromise and "good enough".

I agree with that completely. I said months ago that AC pilots were dreaming in technicolour if they thought they were getting a delta contract. I also didn't think anyone was getting a 100k raise. I was wrong about the second part. But if a 100k raise was given out by the company, don't you think the "Compromise" should have been to give it to the people who need it the most. Or, as I said in another thread, split it evenly between the masses. I agree that there needs to be a switch in your brain that is able to say "yup, good enough". But 20k to the new guys and 100k to the old guys doesn't seem to fit that bill. Not for me anyway. And not when the new guys aren't even being paid a living wage for the place that they live, or commuting and paying to sleep in a crash pad with 5 other pilots.

If they had secured a 20k raise accross the board and went to the members and said "here guys, this is the best we could do" that would have been better than what they did. They blatantly said "yeah, we got 120k in raises to add to peoples salaries, we are going to give it to the guys that need it the least so they can buy another boat". Its a total insult. The scumbags that thought this should be presented to the pilots should be hanging their heads in shame. They should be voted out, fired. Game of thrones march through the kingdom comes to mind. It's disgusting. The idea of moving over to air canada one day has completely left my mind. It's clear the union doesn't look out for anyone but the top guys. I can say that it is objectively better where I am by a LONG shot.

[Bede]

But if a 100k raise was given out by the company, don't you think the "Compromise" should have been to give it to the people who need it the most. Or, as I said in another thread, split it evenly between the masses. I agree that there needs to be a switch in your brain that is able to say "yup, good enough". But 20k to the new guys and 100k to the old guys doesn't seem to fit that bill. Not for me anyway. And not when the new guys aren't even being paid a living wage for the place that they live, or commuting and paying to sleep in a crash pad with 5 other pilots.

If they had secured a 20k raise accross the board and went to the members and said "here guys, this is the best we could do" that would have been better than what they did. They blatantly said "yeah, we got 120k in raises to add to peoples salaries, we are going to give it to the guys that need it the least so they can buy another boat". Its a total insult. The scumbags that thought this should be presented to the pilots should be hanging their heads in shame. They should be voted out, fired. Game of thrones march through the kingdom comes to mind. It's disgusting. The idea of moving over to air canada one day has completely left my mind. It's clear the union doesn't look out for anyone but the top guys. I can say that it is objectively better where I am by a LONG shot.

I would argue that it's a better strategy to look at where the biggest holes are in the CA and fix them completely. The problem at AC is that on the pay front, both the top end and bottom end needed gains.

It's no secret that I'm a WJ pilot. For our CA1 in 2019, our biggest issue was length of service pay. We secured that and I got a massive uplift as a jr captain. Going forward, the next big issues will be sr FO/capt disparity. I'm not expecting many gains personally.

The problem with this strategy is that people generally can't see a long term strategy at play and look only what's personally in it for them in the current bargaining cycle.

[TheStig]

Not only is it a good idea, it seems absolutely necessary given the turd pile they were presented.

The team basically said screw you to 80% of the FOs

And replace them with whom?

People who represent everyone at AC not just the senior captains would be a start...

The MEC Chair is a 737 FO, the rest of the MEC was hired in the last 10 years and were key players in the transition from ACPA to ALPA. The 2 lead negotiators are mid-to-senior-ish seniority, everyone else is quite junior, nobody in the top 1000 seniority numbers had any fingers in this pie.

[rudder]

And replace them with whom?

People who represent everyone at AC not just the senior captains would be a start...

The MEC Chair is a 737 FO, the rest of the MEC was hired in the last 10 years and were key players in the transition from ACPA to ALPA. The 2 lead negotiators are mid-to-senior-ish seniority, everyone else is quite junior, nobody in the top 1000 seniority numbers had any fingers in this pie.

The proposals seemed to reflect that demographic which was likely reflected in the surveys.

The result is 100% ‘old school’. Seems the employer wants to remain trapped in the old paradigm (ah, the good old ACPA days dominated by WB CA representation and bargaining objectives).

[khedrei]

But if a 100k raise was given out by the company, don't you think the "Compromise" should have been to give it to the people who need it the most. Or, as I said in another thread, split it evenly between the masses. I agree that there needs to be a switch in your brain that is able to say "yup, good enough". But 20k to the new guys and 100k to the old guys doesn't seem to fit that bill. Not for me anyway. And not when the new guys aren't even being paid a living wage for the place that they live, or commuting and paying to sleep in a crash pad with 5 other pilots.

If they had secured a 20k raise accross the board and went to the members and said "here guys, this is the best we could do" that would have been better than what they did. They blatantly said "yeah, we got 120k in raises to add to peoples salaries, we are going to give it to the guys that need it the least so they can buy another boat". Its a total insult. The scumbags that thought this should be presented to the pilots should be hanging their heads in shame. They should be voted out, fired. Game of thrones march through the kingdom comes to mind. It's disgusting. The idea of moving over to air canada one day has completely left my mind. It's clear the union doesn't look out for anyone but the top guys. I can say that it is objectively better where I am by a LONG shot.

I would argue that it's a better strategy to look at where the biggest holes are in the CA and fix them completely. The problem at AC is that on the pay front, both the top end and bottom end needed gains.

It's no secret that I'm a WJ pilot. For our CA1 in 2019, our biggest issue was length of service pay. We secured that and I got a massive uplift as a jr captain. Going forward, the next big issues will be sr FO/capt disparity. I'm not expecting many gains personally.

The problem with this strategy is that people generally can't see a long term strategy at play and look only what's personally in it for them in the current bargaining cycle.

With respect Bede, are you seriously trying to argue that the holes in the top end of the pay scale are bigger than the FO's who can't pay their bills living off a LoC? Perhaps the captains top end needed improvement, but they weren't poor. FO's are bordering on the poverty line. And if what you are saying is true, why not split the 120k in salary increase right down the middle? Do you really think the captains needed a salary improvment BIGGER than the FO's entire salary?

It doesn't take a math genius to figure out that 60k increase per years spread over an entire career is the same as making 20k per year more now and then 100k more in 12 years. After the 12 years then the 100k takes over. Which means, this contract was designed to benefit literally only the high end captains and purposly leaves everyone else in the dust, especially the new FO's. I don't have the numbers, but what is the % of the pilot group that is yr 10+ captain? As a 12 year captain, do you really believe you are worth 5X a new FO? Seriously?! 2X I can see, but come on. Give your head a shake.

A big salary bump today is worth WAY more than a huge salary bump in 12 years. As I said b efore, no one knows how inflation will go and those yr 12 numbers will need to be adjusted several times by the time a pilot starting today reaches year 12.

If what you say is true, and the focus should be in one area that is lacking, the captains should have received 0, and the FO's gotten 120k increase. Then, in 3 years they can look at it again and the FO's can sit on the sidelines while they cheer on big raises for the senior captains. Remember that your RP and FO does the same job as you while you are sleeping in your bunk on the way to Dubai. I have ZERO sympathy for a 12 year triple captain making 250k while the FO's are living on LoC. They aren't having any problems paying their bills.

[khedrei]

And replace them with whom?

People who represent everyone at AC not just the senior captains would be a start...

The MEC Chair is a 737 FO, the rest of the MEC was hired in the last 10 years and were key players in the transition from ACPA to ALPA. The 2 lead negotiators are mid-to-senior-ish seniority, everyone else is quite junior, nobody in the top 1000 seniority numbers had any fingers in this pie.

Thats interesting to learn. If that's true then why did they screw over everyone but the Sr Captains? WB in particular.

Fire them all. There isn't any other way.

[kiaszceski]

People who represent everyone at AC not just the senior captains would be a start...

The MEC Chair is a 737 FO, the rest of the MEC was hired in the last 10 years and were key players in the transition from ACPA to ALPA. The 2 lead negotiators are mid-to-senior-ish seniority, everyone else is quite junior, nobody in the top 1000 seniority numbers had any fingers in this pie.

Thats interesting to learn. If that's true then why did they screw over everyone but the Sr Captains? WB in particular.

Fire them all. There isn't any other way.

It's easier to have settled the captain payscale and expect a NO vote from the junior to have better pay.
Since the juniors outnumber the seniors this should be an easy NO so they can continue on the junior payscale while securing the senior's compensation this TA for down the road if the company refuses to compensate the FOs appropriately.

It's actually very smart.

I have a question though and I'm sure people can answer. What happens if there is a NO vote followed by a strike/lockout then goes to arbitration?
Where does this TA stand?

[yhz41]

And not when the new guys aren't even being paid a living wage for the place that they live, or commuting and paying to sleep in a crash pad with 5 other pilots.

You know of a crash pad that only has 6 pilots in it? Should pass on the info for those of us who live with 15 others.

Kidding. Absolutely agree with you.