Pilot unity will get results

[mervinmerv]

Below is a recent example of what a unified pilot group looks like and where it can lead.

United Airlines pilots were able to achieve: an industry-leading increase in pay raises over the life of the contract, as well as quality of work-life and work rule improvements, sick leave and vacation improvements, and an increase to retirement benefits for United’s 16,000 pilots. The union still brought them the first TA, however it wasn’t until the pilots turned it down with 94% that the new contract was negotiated and achieved. They went from $1.3 billion in value added to $10 billion in value added. It is not difficult to see that there is more on the table that can be achieved regardless of position or years of service. The rhetoric changes with each advancement in the articles below, the first one not too different than the one recently released regarding the AC TA. There is more work to be done, for all AC pilots.

June 24 2022: United Airlines Pilot Leaders Approve Tentative Agreement for Member Ratification ($1.3 billion value added)
https://www.alpa.org/news-and-events/ne ... approve-ta

November 1 2022: United Pilots Resoundingly Reject Tentative Agreement
https://www.alpa.org/news-and-events/ne ... -agreement

September 9 2023: United Airlines Pilots Approve New Contract ($10 billion value added)
https://www.alpa.org/news-and-events/ne ... w-contract

[pipedream?]

The senior pilots are already picking out the colour of their new boats.

[JustaCanadian]

How does one demonstrate unity, so we can be sure it's real?

Any good examples in general within Canada on people being united, because I see more divisions than ever.

Pilots aren't aligned on politics, abortion, LGBTQ, charter rights, healthcare, covid etc. I sure as hell don't see anyone voting on a contract for unity, they will vote on a contract if it meets their needs. You can all stand in a line at the terminal as many times as you like, and the only constant will be that everyone in the line will have their own wants, needs and desires. If unity was a thing, it wouldn't have to be mentioned a million times. Do you think my family all comes together to speak about our unity?

The best way to show some unity is to show some respect to the process. No one is getting a contract that has everything they want, no one is getting a contract that has nothing that they want. Respect the process whether its a no or a yes majority, and move forward. Show your respect to the people who invested months of efforts in the negotiations process. Hopefully it's something all pilots, and other airline industry employees can build on in the future whatever the outcome.

[GodlvlPilot]

Unity? Lol to be honest this TA proves the pilot group was anything but unified. Even the MEC wasn't unified in presenting this to the pilot group.

Good luck enjoy the mac and cheese, no social life, upcoming divorce all while you get to enjoy the captain next to you complaining about how he wants the sport fisher but his wife wants the carver.

[digits_]

The best way to show some unity is to show some respect to the process. No one is getting a contract that has everything they want, no one is getting a contract that has nothing that they want. Respect the process whether its a no or a yes majority, and move forward. Show your respect to the people who invested months of efforts in the negotiations process. Hopefully it's something all pilots, and other airline industry employees can build on in the future whatever the outcome.

What about respect towards the pilots who supported you? What about respect towards your colleagues? One group of pilots making 4 times what another group of pilots makes in your own company doesn't demonstrate one iota of respect either...

[flogolik]

This TA is underwhelming to say the least.

A clear NO would get a lot of respect from peers across the industry, a YES vote, not so much…

Where is the world class contract?

[mervinmerv]

The best way to show some unity is to show some respect to the process. No one is getting a contract that has everything they want, no one is getting a contract that has nothing that they want. Respect the process whether its a no or a yes majority, and move forward. Show your respect to the people who invested months of efforts in the negotiations process. Hopefully it's something all pilots, and other airline industry employees can build on in the future whatever the outcome.

One can respect the work and efforts of the NC over the last year and believe they did their very best. One can also say that this TA is simply not enough. Both things can be true at the same time, this is not about disrespect. The union representatives work on behalf of the pilots and they have every right to ask for more.

[khedrei]

How does one demonstrate unity, so we can be sure it's real?

Any good examples in general within Canada on people being united, because I see more divisions than ever.

Pilots aren't aligned on politics, abortion, LGBTQ, charter rights, healthcare, covid etc. I sure as hell don't see anyone voting on a contract for unity, they will vote on a contract if it meets their needs. You can all stand in a line at the terminal as many times as you like, and the only constant will be that everyone in the line will have their own wants, needs and desires. If unity was a thing, it wouldn't have to be mentioned a million times. Do you think my family all comes together to speak about our unity?

The best way to show some unity is to show some respect to the process. No one is getting a contract that has everything they want, no one is getting a contract that has nothing that they want. Respect the process whether its a no or a yes majority, and move forward. Show your respect to the people who invested months of efforts in the negotiations process. Hopefully it's something all pilots, and other airline industry employees can build on in the future whatever the outcome.

I'm willing to bet my next paycheck that some people got nothing that they wanted. Probably quite a few. I don't know all the details on the QoL things but I'm told very few things were solved. Some people wanted nothing other than a living wage in YYZ. They didn't get it.

[tsgarp]

Your Union works for you; if they deliver shoddy product send it back to them for rework; just vote no.

[Aerkavo]

I'm willing to bet my next paycheck that some people got nothing that they wanted. Probably quite a few. I don't know all the details on the QoL things but I'm told very few things were solved. Some people wanted nothing other than a living wage in YYZ. They didn't get it.

1st year up by 29%
2nd year up by 28%
3rd year up by 41%
4th year up by 35%

All other position up by 26% (Except 767 which is 36%)

I don't think anyone could claim the juniors were shutout or that they got less than their share. I don't know where you're getting your information but a lot of things were significantly improved. "Solved?" I don't know what that means. Virtually every section of the contract has been tweaked or improved. The vast majority of the discussion on the AC pilot forum is that "we didn't get enough" none of it is that "we went backwards in some section"

[JustaCanadian]

The best way to show some unity is to show some respect to the process. No one is getting a contract that has everything they want, no one is getting a contract that has nothing that they want. Respect the process whether its a no or a yes majority, and move forward. Show your respect to the people who invested months of efforts in the negotiations process. Hopefully it's something all pilots, and other airline industry employees can build on in the future whatever the outcome.

What about respect towards the pilots who supported you? What about respect towards your colleagues? One group of pilots making 4 times what another group of pilots makes in your own company doesn't demonstrate one iota of respect either...

What is the total compensation for the first 4 years, and what was it prior to the TA? Is it that bad?
Lots of pilots worked for 4 year flat pay. For a new hire to demand more if it's not through a democratic process is pretty rich no? Maybe the vote will be no, and maybe they will get more. But if they don't, will they respect the process? I sense lots of anger. Will these pilots contribute to the company in a meaningful way. Will these pilots all quit because it's not good enough?

Unity is not about pointing out what you don't like about the deal, just for yourself. Unity is understanding what's in it for everyone and why some people may disagree. Democracy will decide if the TA was right or not. Could really go either way.

I think we are mostly on the same page BTW... Just think people are to heated on one side. The first four years getting a huge percentage raise is like finding a gold nugget to somone hired this year. Of course they would want that. Shoot for the moon. I get it, life is expensive but that doesn't mean you win the lottery.

And before you say the senior guys won the lottery, did they win it 10 years ago? Was it all blue sky's for them?

[Bede]

The union representatives work on behalf of the pilots and they have every right to ask for more.

No doubt they did ask for more, but felt, in their best judgement, that this TA was the best they could do. Maybe they're right, maybe they're wrong, but for every example of pilots doing better by voting down a TA, I'm sure you can find two examples of pilots doing worse. (AC in c. 2013 and AC strike in 1998 for example.

[digits_]

Lots of pilots worked for 4 year flat pay. For a new hire to demand more if it's not through a democratic process is pretty rich no?

There it is, the good old "I've suffered, so you need to suffer too!"

That's your way to achieve unity? Please...

Unity is not about pointing out what you don't like about the deal, just for yourself. Unity is understanding what's in it for everyone and why some people may disagree. Democracy will decide if the TA was right or not. Could really go either way.

Just because it may pass a democratic process, doesn't mean it's right or fair.

I think we are mostly on the same page BTW... Just think people are to heated on one side. The first four years getting a huge percentage raise is like finding a gold nugget to somone hired this year. Of course they would want that. Shoot for the moon. I get it, life is expensive but that doesn't mean you win the lottery.

Winning the lottery? No, people are doing a job. The first year FOs are doing the same job as the 4th or 12th year FOs. They are spending the same time in the cockpit as all the Captains. Some pay difference is obviously acceptable. Seems like globally 66% is an acceptable ratio for FO vs Captain pay. Work towards getting a proper ratio integrated. Nobody is asking for winning a lotery. Just fair compensation.

1st year up by 29%
2nd year up by 28%
3rd year up by 41%
4th year up by 35%

All other position up by 26% (Except 767 which is 36%)

I don't think anyone could claim the juniors were shutout or that they got less than their share.

That's what the majority of the posters in these topics are trying to point out. They did not get their fair share. You can't historically screw over the FOs, claim you'll rectify it, and then give everyone sort of the same percentage raise and claim it's fair.

With an average 66% FO vs Captain pay (and assuming a 50% FO - Captain ratio, which might be slightly off), the FOs should have gotten 40% of the available money for raises to keep it 'fair'. More if you wanted to correct the historic discrepancies.

But either way, paying one pilot 4 times as much as another, and giving those raises that are higher than most FOs total new wages is wrong, no matter how you try to justify it.

[khedrei]

Not only that, but the positions that paid the least, were also among the one that got the lowest % increase. A small % of a small number is a smaller number in absolute terms which in the economy when you're on low pay, is the only thing that matters.

If you keep applying "similar % " raises throughout the years, it won't be long for that captain gap to go from 3-5x FO pay to jump to 5-7x FO pay.

[AirCandida]

Some here are communists wanting socialized pay it seems. Comrade Captain makes to much, give to year 1 commrade. Matter of fact, all captains get 300k and all FO get 150k, that would be best for all commrades. Sorry but that ain't Canada yet.

[khedrei]

Some here are communists wanting socialized pay it seems. Comrade Captain makes to much, give to year 1 commrade. Matter of fact, all captains get 300k and all FO get 150k, that would be best for all commrades. Sorry but that ain't Canada yet.

Hahaha, that's rich.

Sorry you don't know what communist means.

Communist means fast food worker at Wendy's should make what AC pilot, doctor, lawyer, etc make because everything is owned and run by the government and everyone does their "share" and just gets to live.

We are talking about two people who fly the same plane, work the same hours, and do the same job for the same company. One has more responsibily, which has been recognized to be worth 50% more in most other places but here makes 5 times more.

Brush up on your definitions...

[Sabr]

Well something doesn't add up.

United posted a revenue of 15$ Billion in Q2, and a net income of 1.4$ Billion.

S10$ billion in gains? Seems to me the United pilot's contract will put a large pressure on their financial position in the years to come.

https://ir.united.com/static-files/54fc ... 7dda229121

[AirCandida]

Komrade Khedrei, in my example it's basically what you want. It's a light version of communism, but communism nonetheless. But carry on your crusade of Robin Hood. Let's see your take a few years down the road. Also vote no, see the gem that happens after, now that we see most political parties are now behind Trudeau, your back to work legislation just became a guarentee, and management knows that.

[cdnavater]

Some here are communists wanting socialized pay it seems. Comrade Captain makes to much, give to year 1 commrade. Matter of fact, all captains get 300k and all FO get 150k, that would be best for all commrades. Sorry but that ain't Canada yet.

Hahaha, that's rich.

Sorry you don't know what communist means.

Communist means fast food worker at Wendy's should make what AC pilot, doctor, lawyer, etc make because everything is owned and run by the government and everyone does their "share" and just gets to live.

We are talking about two people who fly the same plane, work the same hours, and do the same job for the same company. One has more responsibily, which has been recognized to be worth 50% more in most other places but here makes 5 times more.

Brush up on your definitions...

You know, you make it real hard for me to respond in a less vitriolic way, I’ll try!
AC is in the media defending the starting pay. Citing, offsetting the training cost and you clearly don’t think longevity counts for anything, which to that I say, screw you!
Where is the criticism of WJs first four years.
AC is ahead of WJ until January when WJ gets their annual raise and then September AC pulls ahead again and stays ahead for the first four years, then by a fairly substantial amount year five on.
Top scale is much closer to the US than before, which in the grand scheme was a huge win in my mind.
AND they are not doing the same job, they have not refined their skills and decision making to the same level, they are learning the job and the operation, gone are the days when a pilot has to do ten years of scary shit before they get a call.
I would 1000% support a step up in YOS scale for every 1000 hours of PIC time, up to year 5, you join AC with 5000 PIC, you go straight to year 5, 4000/year 4, etc. 2000 with a bare ATPL gets you on year 1, but I doubt this was even contemplated.
And screw off with the bankruptcy shit, post 9/11 there were no jobs for 3-4 years and even then the jobs were shit, I turned down many crap jobs for crap pay and got myself a backup career for future downturns, so yes I had to do it and I learned from that, so I would never criticize someone for going through that, which is also why I say, don’t take the job if it doesn’t meet your financial needs. Justifying it because it’s AC only helps to keep the wages low.
I worked up North for 12 years and Jazz FO was pretty much the same pay as King Air Captain, otherwise I wouldn’t have done it, not living on credit was my priority, even if it meant staying where I was.

[Lt. Daniel Kaffee]

khedri claims he isnt a AC pilot...and yet spends 3 or 4 hrs a day in his mum's basement on the keyboard worried about he plight of the poor air canada pilots...he's financially independent, could retire today at 39


KHEDRI = TROLL

[thepoors]

Well I think alot of questions have been answered.

Unity means nothing when ALPA willingly shoots its membership in the foot...or is it in the back?

TA will pass. Company wins. Canadian aviation loses again. Show's over folks.

[khedrei]

khedri claims he isnt a AC pilot...and yet spends 3 or 4 hrs a day in his mum's basement on the keyboard worried about he plight of the poor air canada pilots...he's financially independent, could retire today at 39


KHEDRI = TROLL

At least try and spell my tag right...

You can believe what you want. I have never worked for AC and never will unless the starting wages go up.

I do however work in aviation and was off this week and this contact will affect me indirectly so i decided to post a bunch becuase the promises were broken so egregiously. I hardly spend 4 hours posting, but sure...

I said I could retire modestly. That is true. Again, why would I lie. Like most people in here, I have ambition so I don't want to just relax on my porch. I'd be too bored.

If you're going to accuse me of lying, at least show some evidence. Something in the past where I contradicted myself.

Also, I should add that I care about all the young pilots, not just the ones at AC. Looks like you don't care who runs this would in 20-30 years. The future of the west looks pretty bleak, even though I'm doing ok.

[Me262]

The senior pilots are already picking out the colour of their new boats.

Talking about unity as an outsider. I remember Ripplerock's many posts about world class contract. Now after the TA, I'm not seeing a single post from him (or did I missed them?) I'm going to take it that he was a captain and that he is more than happy with the colour of his new boat while FO's keep enjoying their mac and cheese

[braaap Braap]

The senior pilots are already picking out the colour of their new boats.

Talking about unity as an outsider. I remember Ripplerock's many posts about world class contract. Now after the TA, I'm not seeing a single post from him (or did I missed them?) I'm going to take it that he was a captain and that he is more than happy with the colour of his new boat while FO's keep enjoying their mac and cheese

While he is certainly not as active as he was pre-TA. I have seen a few messages from him around here none of which seemed very happy about the TA. Perhaps he is processing the emotions and fed up with the whole process. Try and remember there's a human on the other side before you potentially kick someone when they're down.

This turd won't be getting any endorsement from me and I'm in the top 15%. I'm shellshocked right now.

The simple fact that the MEC released this after a full day of debate, shows that it WAS NOT unanimous. Do not EVER release a TA that does not have the unanimous support of the MEC. One "no" outlier maybe, but this was clearly a "split vote". Alarm bells were going off for me all day yesterday when I heard they were debating hard. We were poised to shut this show down, now nothing.

We have lost a lot of momentum with this move. The details of the "40 something" percent increase will be release to the public shortly, and we will be villified as greedy from all angles for wanting more. The Company will play this up HARD. Good luck with that.

There are almost NO quality of life improvements, PBS scheduling remains a nasty thorn, best fit remains to hound anyone on reserve, the AIF remains for commuters, still two years flat, daily credit barely moved, vacation credit hardly budges off of it's current pathetic allotment, pension indexing rate is a joke.

This is NOT World Class by ANY standard. We are still well below every US Legacy in pay rate, even without the conversion.


What a mess we're in now. I hope I'm missing something very, very big and this was a "long play" of some very strange sort.



Godspeed everyone.

[Man_in_the_sky]

How the F does YWG gets 3 vote representing 50 pilots on this TA?

All senior , all voted yes. Half of the yes came from ywg