It's Time

[PorterPilots4Change]

www.porterpilotsforchange.ca

[CaptDukeNukem]

You’re posting this before seeing what the company will offer because of the AC contract. Holy f&ck dud3. Just sit and wait for a couple months

It’s shocking how little people know how unions work.

There’s an offer coming our way, very shortly, and you want to blockade that by organizing a union that has clearly shown less than optimal benefits at a cost on our paychecks.

Maybe everyone should just wait and see what this benchmark shows, before making their decision

[Speedbrakes]

You’re posting this before seeing what the company will offer because of the AC contract. Holy f&ck dud3. Just sit and wait for a couple months

Any idea when we'll hear something? I honestly thought we'd have heard something by now.

[Speedbrakes]

www.porterpilotsforchange.ca

Nah. I'm good. For now anyway.

[CaptDukeNukem]

You’re posting this before seeing what the company will offer because of the AC contract. Holy f&ck dud3. Just sit and wait for a couple months

Any idea when we'll hear something? I honestly thought we'd have heard something by now.

Benchmarking was usually done spring time ish. Historically at porter I mean.

My guess is as good as yours. It’s coming, but when?! lol.

My spidey senses have it going that it may be announced with some of the town halls.

I don’t think porter can wait to long to announce the benchmarking without losing out to AC

[CaptDukeNukem]

www.porterpilotsforchange.ca

Nah. I'm good. For now anyway.

I also am with this statement.


Speed brake said it best:
I’m good, thanks. For now.

[cjp]

You’re posting this before seeing what the company will offer because of the AC contract. Holy f&ck dud3. Just sit and wait for a couple months

Any idea when we'll hear something? I honestly thought we'd have heard something by now.

Waiting to see how many cut off to AC would be my guess, then figuring out if they need to benchmark higher. Retention is always going to be a challenge in this type of market - we just don't have the supply anymore.

To be successful, this benchmark has to be more than just salary - need a longer term commitment to flight crews to keep talent interested and the pressure inward.

See what the management suite has come up with here shortly. E.M cancelled the pilot call next week, so I'm guessing we're getting close.

[CaptDukeNukem]

You’re posting this before seeing what the company will offer because of the AC contract. Holy f&ck dud3. Just sit and wait for a couple months

Any idea when we'll hear something? I honestly thought we'd have heard something by now.

Waiting to see how many cut off to AC would be my guess, then figuring out if they need to benchmark higher. Retention is always going to be a challenge in this type of market - we just don't have the supply anymore.

To be successful, this benchmark has to be more than just salary - need a longer term commitment to flight crews to keep talent interested and the pressure inward.

See what the management suite has come up with here shortly. E.M cancelled the pilot call next week, so I'm guessing we're getting close.

Cancelled due to town halls starting next week. It’s easier to make people not show up if you make it a physical address lol.

I’m sure that things will get brought up tho

[Speedbrakes]

Cancelled due to town halls starting next week. It’s easier to make people not show up if you make it a physical address lol.

I assumed these will be streamed, no? And I'm not sure why we're having town halls. Last time they just sent out an email announcing the new pay scale.

The term "town hall" always gives me Vietnam flashbacks. The last time a company I worked for had a town hall it was to promise everyone we weren't going under.

Guess what happened....

[flyinhigh]

We are having town halls to have a face to face with the leadership to get answers that in no way answers concerns. It's purely to give face to face with the pilots as there is clearly an uproar with the constant changes (see the Whatsapp group) and writing up of pilots.

The townhalls will not be for announcing wage increases. If a CSR or FA does join and they hear pilots are getting X and they get nothing, OUCH.

It is definitely time for proper representation to stop the shenanigans from occurring. We have been promised by an FOAG rep since August good stuff was coming, than more changes not for the good and still nothing. Do we wait till we announce a merger, IPO, more cuts, etc. At that point it is to late and if we are going to be a big boy, we need big boy representation.

[cdnavater]

Any idea when we'll hear something? I honestly thought we'd have heard something by now.

Waiting to see how many cut off to AC would be my guess, then figuring out if they need to benchmark higher. Retention is always going to be a challenge in this type of market - we just don't have the supply anymore.

To be successful, this benchmark has to be more than just salary - need a longer term commitment to flight crews to keep talent interested and the pressure inward.

See what the management suite has come up with here shortly. E.M cancelled the pilot call next week, so I'm guessing we're getting close.

Cancelled due to town halls starting next week. It’s easier to make people not show up if you make it a physical address lol.

I’m sure that things will get brought up tho

Seems familiar, where have I seen this before, oh yah the cult of caring westjetters, lol, seems like Deluce is just trying to recycle what worked for a while at WJ, we know how that played out.
Here’s an interesting read, I wonder if any of it will seem familiar

https://www.icmrindia.org/casestudies/c ... cerpts.htm

“There were some formal groups in the company to address employee grievances and encourage employee participation. At WestJet, CARE, or Creating a Remarkable Experience, was one of them. CARE was a group whose aim was to propagate the WestJet culture throughout the company. Inculcating the culture was not a one-time effort but an ongoing process, according to company insiders. CARE was responsible for organizing more than 250 events every year for the employees and their families. These included meetings with the pilots, the crew, discussions about culture, and town hall meetings. Twice a year WestJet held profit sharing parties – one during the spring and the other during the fall. At these parties, employees were given profit-sharing checks. The CARE team also brought out videos and plays to entertain the employees. At these celebrations outstanding employees received awards”

[flyingcanuck]

www.porterpilotsforchange.ca

Nah. I'm good. For now anyway.

I also am with this statement.


Speed brake said it best:
I’m good, thanks. For now.

can you guys provide your reasoning for NOT wanting a union? not a "alpa sucks" answer either.

[Speedbrakes]

If a CSR or FA does join and they hear pilots are getting X and they get nothing, OUCH.

That was my thought exactly.

can you guys provide your reasoning for NOT wanting a union? not a "alpa sucks" answer either.

Sure.

Right now, regardless of whether or not things "keep changing" the relationship between management and the pilots is good. The union is not going to make that better. At best it will be neutral but more realistically it will make the relationship worse. The evidence for this is everywhere.

Porter pilots have had three significant raises in around 18 months (in fairness this is assuming the benchmarking is announced shortly). You want to keep pilots happy and keep a union at bay? Keep recognizing their contributions. Porter is doing that right now.

If we bring in a union it is going to be a long time before we get a contract. The kind of contract that ALPA will promise us. Which brings up another point. In the last few negotiations ALPA has promised their pilots the world. Each time they under-delivered by a significant margin. Even understanding that the airlines make things incredibly difficult for the unions, ALPA still failed in my opinion. And in the opinion of many others.

Getting WestJet and Air Canada pilots back up to where the US pilots was never going to happen. At least not in one fell swoop. So why did ALPA promise that? And get everyone riled up only to fold faster than Superman on laundry day. And then the fear mongering with this recent vote on the AC TA? Embarrassing to be honest.

At the end of the day this is where I'm at. I have no interest in a union right now. Porter is expanding which means they need us more than we need them right now. So the pendulum has swung in our favour. Bringing in a union right now will stall that momentum.

With that said, I've been doing this long enough to know that the pendulum will swing back the other way and when that happens having representation will be smart. And I also know that we can't flip a switch and have a union overnight. So I think we need to play this smart. Let's see how this benchmarking goes. See if there are other improvements in addition to pay (commuting, REA, flow, etc) and then if we don't like where it's headed, we look at ALPA.

In my humble opinion now is not the time.

Cheers.

[goingnowherefast]

If a CSR or FA does join and they hear pilots are getting X and they get nothing, OUCH.

That was my thought exactly.

can you guys provide your reasoning for NOT wanting a union? not a "alpa sucks" answer either.

Sure.

Right now, regardless of whether or not things "keep changing" the relationship between management and the pilots is good. The union is not going to make that better. At best it will be neutral but more realistically it will make the relationship worse. The evidence for this is everywhere.

Porter pilots have had three significant raises in around 18 months (in fairness this is assuming the benchmarking is announced shortly). You want to keep pilots happy and keep a union at bay? Keep recognizing their contributions. Porter is doing that right now.

If we bring in a union it is going to be a long time before we get a contract. The kind of contract that ALPA will promise us. Which brings up another point. In the last few negotiations ALPA has promised their pilots the world. Each time they under-delivered by a significant margin. Even understanding that the airlines make things incredibly difficult for the unions, ALPA still failed in my opinion. And in the opinion of many others.

Getting WestJet and Air Canada pilots back up to where the US pilots was never going to happen. At least not in one fell swoop. So why did ALPA promise that? And get everyone riled up only to fold faster than Superman on laundry day. And then the fear mongering with this recent vote on the AC TA? Embarrassing to be honest.

At the end of the day this is where I'm at. I have no interest in a union right now. Porter is expanding which means they need us more than we need them right now. So the pendulum has swung in our favour. Bringing in a union right now will stall that momentum.

With that said, I've been doing this long enough to know that the pendulum will swing back the other way and when that happens having representation will be smart. And I also know that we can't flip a switch and have a union overnight. So I think we need to play this smart. Let's see how this benchmarking goes. See if there are other improvements in addition to pay (commuting, REA, flow, etc) and then if we don't like where it's headed, we look at ALPA.

In my humble opinion now is not the time.

Cheers.

When is the time? I want a crystal ball that tells me when things are about to turn bad. They also need sufficient notice to organize and negotiate a contract. Now is probably already too late. Porter should organize in 2023 to be ready for when the pendulum swings the other way.

This argument is yes ALPA, but the debate is about when. That's kinda like buying an insurance policy knowing when your house is going to burn down. That's not really how life or insurance works.

[CaptDukeNukem]

If a CSR or FA does join and they hear pilots are getting X and they get nothing, OUCH.

That was my thought exactly.

can you guys provide your reasoning for NOT wanting a union? not a "alpa sucks" answer either.

Sure.

Right now, regardless of whether or not things "keep changing" the relationship between management and the pilots is good. The union is not going to make that better. At best it will be neutral but more realistically it will make the relationship worse. The evidence for this is everywhere.

Porter pilots have had three significant raises in around 18 months (in fairness this is assuming the benchmarking is announced shortly). You want to keep pilots happy and keep a union at bay? Keep recognizing their contributions. Porter is doing that right now.

If we bring in a union it is going to be a long time before we get a contract. The kind of contract that ALPA will promise us. Which brings up another point. In the last few negotiations ALPA has promised their pilots the world. Each time they under-delivered by a significant margin. Even understanding that the airlines make things incredibly difficult for the unions, ALPA still failed in my opinion. And in the opinion of many others.

Getting WestJet and Air Canada pilots back up to where the US pilots was never going to happen. At least not in one fell swoop. So why did ALPA promise that? And get everyone riled up only to fold faster than Superman on laundry day. And then the fear mongering with this recent vote on the AC TA? Embarrassing to be honest.

At the end of the day this is where I'm at. I have no interest in a union right now. Porter is expanding which means they need us more than we need them right now. So the pendulum has swung in our favour. Bringing in a union right now will stall that momentum.

With that said, I've been doing this long enough to know that the pendulum will swing back the other way and when that happens having representation will be smart. And I also know that we can't flip a switch and have a union overnight. So I think we need to play this smart. Let's see how this benchmarking goes. See if there are other improvements in addition to pay (commuting, REA, flow, etc) and then if we don't like where it's headed, we look at ALPA.

In my humble opinion now is not the time.

Cheers.

+1

Well written.

Now is not the time.

The time may be coming. But not today.

No thank you and very much

[cjp]

Nah. I'm good. For now anyway.

I also am with this statement.


Speed brake said it best:
I’m good, thanks. For now.

can you guys provide your reasoning for NOT wanting a union? not a "alpa sucks" answer either.

The process to organizing a first contract can be an absolute slog, and the pilot/management relationship has been decent, so not a ton of motivation, particularly from the more established group. For now it seem business as usual, I think people are waiting out the benchmark to decide if it's enough of an improvement to warrant modifying the relationship, because once you go union, particularly with an anti-union ownership, it can dramatically alter how they interact with you.

[Allfourseasons]

I'm glad to see our pilots are beginning to think about protecting their futures now that we're entering the stage as a Canadian national competitor.

People are quick to point at "why do we need a union? We have had three (with this upcoming benchmark included) raises in the last 2 years!" But this is while the going is good. Just as fast as these pay increases come in, they can be taken away with a Friday email. We are quick to forget about the paycut the FO group in 2022 recieved before these "generous times" were upon us. A contract would guarantee stability and assurances, instead of waking up to massive QOL changes like the ARC/CUB bidding which makes seniority bidding pointless, or RAPs being changed to favour the company and not the pilot.

We're nearing 800 pilots now and it's time to put down an uninterruptible foundation of what we want as a group, rain or shine. This is long-term thinking, instead of grabbing the shiny objects in front of us while ignoring the fact we're just one email away from anything we have now being taken on a whim.

[Speedbrakes]

while ignoring the fact we're just one email away from anything we have now being taken on a whim.

Sure. And Porter's one email away from losing half their pilots.

Plus, I think we all know that having a union doesn't guarantee that a company can't take money away.

[Speedbrakes]

(see the Whatsapp group)

Which group is that?

[Di83]

while ignoring the fact we're just one email away from anything we have now being taken on a whim.

Plus, I think we all know that having a union doesn't guarantee that a company can't take money away.

Alpa doesnt even priorities the income/money increase for pilots.

[up on one]

All we need to do is look at how Jazz has fared in the past five years. They’ve got a “contract” with a reputable union and still face the realities of supply and demand. So my question is this, what will their union do to protect them from EIC becoming the next and only AC express carrier?

In my opinion, aside from the current protections allocated under Canadian labour laws, there is nothing they can do to change the fundamentals of capitalism but I am open to discussion.

[cjp]

I'm glad to see our pilots are beginning to think about protecting their futures now that we're entering the stage as a Canadian national competitor.

People are quick to point at "why do we need a union? We have had three (with this upcoming benchmark included) raises in the last 2 years!" But this is while the going is good. Just as fast as these pay increases come in, they can be taken away with a Friday email. We are quick to forget about the paycut the FO group in 2022 recieved before these "generous times" were upon us. A contract would guarantee stability and assurances, instead of waking up to massive QOL changes like the ARC/CUB bidding which makes seniority bidding pointless, or RAPs being changed to favour the company and not the pilot.

We're nearing 800 pilots now and it's time to put down an uninterruptible foundation of what we want as a group, rain or shine. This is long-term thinking, instead of grabbing the shiny objects in front of us while ignoring the fact we're just one email away from anything we have now being taken on a whim.

While the going is good? We have 3 to 4 more years of jet acquisitions, not including any possible positive changes coming on the Dash-8 side. We are at a point where the company is very quickly realizing, particularly those in training, that pilots considering Porter, who are generally successful, have choices, and Porter is not always going to be their first pick, despite the new hires white lies in the interview.

What's going to change that - unfortunately it's not culture; it's money. Generally more than the competition. Culture and growth helps, but it doesn't help pay bills or necessarily set you up for future success. People will chose money and future success, and right now we are paying less than the competition. So they will have to find money and clever methods to keep the doors rotating in the right direction, otherwise they will see the bleeding become more critical. What Porter can't afford right now is any drastic shocks to manpower.

Luckily Air Canada's lukewarm contract keeps things relatively stable. This buys Porter time to figure out how to address what is most likely a -capable - pilot supply crisis. Lots of pilots out there, but when you boil it down, there's not many that should be flying 705 aircraft into and out of the highest density airspaces that we are growing into.

Now all that said, I feel like the push for a union is almost 80-90% Dash-8 flight crew, because there is a belief that ALPA will provide some better guidance on seniority for those hoping to transition to the E2 sooner rather than later or stop direct hires onto the jet. I don't see how things will change because at this rate they would have to close up shop on the Dash 8 for everyone to go E2, which the company won't allow. If ALPA comes in and things go really poorly, there is a chance, small yes, things could go awry with DOH at the separate OC's. Great for everyone hired in the last 2-3 years on the E2, really bad for everyone else. Tread cautiously with the union rally cry.

Economics dictate monitoring the situation - ALPA has little to no power in Canada in comparison to it's US counterparts - all you have to do is take a look around the industry - Air Canada included - and it brings out the 'Meh' in me. My experience, unions usually protect the weakest and laziest, and always fold with enough corporate and government pressure, ALPA included. Everyone can be bought - I'm happy paying zip in fees and getting roughly the same level of service with a good relationship with the managers, who you can sit down with and have a beer if you make it out to a 'Sheaf night.

[CaptDukeNukem]

All we need to do is look at how Jazz has fared in the past five years. They’ve got a “contract” with a reputable union and still face the realities of supply and demand. So my question is this, what will their union do to protect them from EIC becoming the next and only AC express carrier?

In my opinion, aside from the current protections allocated under Canadian labour laws, there is nothing they can do to change the fundamentals of capitalism but I am open to discussion.

I hear that PAL now doing transborder flying also

[8895]

I don’t think the bulk of the push is coming from the Q side of things tbh. I’ve chatted with a ton of Q transfers on the jet who are also for representation.

A large chunk of the DEC’s who helped get the jet operation off the ground were expats and “drifters” who have had multiple employers up until porter. I feel like most of them are getting to the home stretch of their career and will happily take as much net income as possible because the long term stability a union could provide is pretty irrelevant for them.

As someone under 30 sitting right seat in the E2, hoping to spend the rest of my career here, the long term outlook without protection petrifies me. If we get sold off to some Bay Street bros so the deluces and pension funds can make out like bandits while the position I invested my career in drastically changes, I’ve got a problem with that. I will happily go make more money and let the pension funds work for me at AC if I don’t have that long term protection while the lights are on here.

[lowoleo22]

I hear that PAL now doing transborder flying also

Heard PAL going into EWR the other day from YHZ so they are indeed doing Jazz flying. Don't forget that Jazz also got their Porter-sized raises on the backs of losing half their flow to AC. It's amazing what they had to give up just to get something we get in a benchmark. What is the benefit of ALPA again?