NavCanada's stupid satelite ADSB mandate

[IJNShiroyuki]

This whole idea of using satelite to receive ads-b signal is just dumb af. I know there is advantage to it in the far north where ground radar is unavalible, but that's about it, that's the only advantage about it, and maybe it will save NavCanada some money because now they don't need to install ground stations.

But how does it benefit most people who only fly in the south? It cost us at least ten thousand dollar more to install a diversity transponder, and we won't get the benefit of in flight ADS-B weather broadcast like the US does, and it keeps getting delayed.

So , NavCan decide to fk the small guys, ask them to fork out thousands of dollar while they benefit nothing. Yes we will be able to see other traffic but that's the bare minimum. I'd like to have free ADS-B weather, TIS-B traffic and all other benefit that come with a proper ground based ads-b installation.

Now with this extra cost, and less benefit, no wonder they keep pushing back ADS-B mandate in lower level airspace, because I suppose no one want to bite the bullet.

Garmin GTX335 without diversity is 3600USD, while with diversity is 7000USD, adding at least 20 to 30 hour labour at 100$ per hour to rip out the interior, add new cable, and new antenna. Why should private owner even bother? That's easily 7 thousand cad extra just for navcan to save a few bucks on ground stations. Multiply that by whatever thousands private GA plane that is registered in Canada, and small business turboprop that never fly to the north, easily hundreds of millions wasted.

With them keeping pushing back mandate because no one want to comply with such costly mandate, flying in congested airspace is still a nightmare, god knows where will some dikhead flight school plane that doesn't make radio call will suddenly fly over you at 300ft above.

Honestly, NavCanada really should accept 978UAT and non diversity 1090ES installation in southern domestic airspace and make the madate come earlier, that way it makes everyone's life easier. FFS

[khedrei]

From what i read, the mandate isn't until 2028 for C, D, and E airspace and aparently the liklihood of them meeting the deadline is low, so you will have a couple extra years at least. Its also TC, not NC that has the mandate. You can also probably be allowed through the airspace with a single belly mounted antenna but that will remain to be seen. Yes, the Garmin unit is 10k or more. But you can get a Uavionics tail beacon unit with a AV30 for about 5k I think. Even on the high end, if you can't afford to allocate 2500 per year for the next 4 years you might have chosen the wrong hobby. And that's for garmin equipement which if that's what you are installing, I don't think you should be complaining about money. The lynx unit is somewhere in the middle.

Seems to me like you are making a big fuss over nothing, or at the very least, over reacting.

[digits_]

From what i read, the mandate isn't until 2028 for C, D, and E airspace and aparently the liklihood of them meeting the deadline is low, so you will have a couple extra years at least. Its also TC, not NC that has the mandate. You can also probably be allowed through the airspace with a single belly mounted antenna but that will remain to be seen. Yes, the Garmin unit is 10k or more. But you can get a Uavionics tail beacon unit with a AV30 for about 5k I think. Even on the high end, if you can't afford to allocate 2500 per year for the next 4 years you might have chosen the wrong hobby. And that's for garmin equipement which if that's what you are installing, I don't think you should be complaining about money. The lynx unit is somewhere in the middle.

Seems to me like you are making a big fuss over nothing, or at the very least, over reacting.

2500 dollars a year to only satisfy some requirement that doesn't give you any benefit is absolutely not nothing.

I wish I had the money to consider 2.5k or 10k 'nothing'!

[Howitzer]

To be clear, there is no mention in the CARs that requires you to install a Diversity system. It simply states that you need to meet the "performance standard" of 551.103. You can demonstrate this by completing a PAPPR request after a qualifying flight. If you pass, you pass, carry on and don't look back.

[khedrei]

I didn't say it was nothing. I said you have the wrong hobby if you arent prepared to spend that.

Wait for the oil change where your engine starts making metal unexpectedly. You'll wish all you had to deal with was a 10k ADSB mandate.

If you arent prepared for unexpected costs in this business, you're in the wrong business.

I do agree that wx and TISb should come with it... and I bet it will be coming at some point.

[IJNShiroyuki]

From what i read, the mandate isn't until 2028 for C, D, and E airspace and aparently the liklihood of them meeting the deadline is low, so you will have a couple extra years at least. Its also TC, not NC that has the mandate. You can also probably be allowed through the airspace with a single belly mounted antenna but that will remain to be seen. Yes, the Garmin unit is 10k or more. But you can get a Uavionics tail beacon unit with a AV30 for about 5k I think. Even on the high end, if you can't afford to allocate 2500 per year for the next 4 years you might have chosen the wrong hobby. And that's for garmin equipement which if that's what you are installing, I don't think you should be complaining about money. The lynx unit is somewhere in the middle.

Seems to me like you are making a big fuss over nothing, or at the very least, over reacting.

There's two problem to this. 2500$ isn't a lot of money, but when you spend that money on something uesless, that's a problem. And it is problem NavCan or TC want us to fork out extra cost comparing to US installation, while also bringing us less value or function. I'd gladly spend 10k for ads-b but I'm upset of paying more and getting less.

Second, 2028 is very late. Canada, especially southern airspace around Toronto or Montreal need ADS-B YESTERDAY, it would be better for everyone if navcan accepts 1090es or even better 978 UAT and mandate it tomorrow, so everywhere can be seen earlier. Dragging the deadline for some expensive non sense is risking people's life. I can't count how many close call I have around toronto with flight school or glider idiots that show up out of nowhere.

[khedrei]

Or... wait for the "no lead" mandate that could require everyone to overhaul their engine or have some additional parts or other costly thing required.

I would also argue that it does have a benefit. Flight following and service available across the entire country. Better ifr separation. Etc. I found out when I was flying my plane north of 66 that they could see me the whole time even at 4k feet. Was nice to know I could have had good help if I needed it.

Is it worth 10k... maybe... maybe not. But it certainly isn't "nothing" in return.

[IJNShiroyuki]

From what i read, the mandate isn't until 2028 for C, D, and E airspace and aparently the liklihood of them meeting the deadline is low, so you will have a couple extra years at least. Its also TC, not NC that has the mandate. You can also probably be allowed through the airspace with a single belly mounted antenna but that will remain to be seen. Yes, the Garmin unit is 10k or more. But you can get a Uavionics tail beacon unit with a AV30 for about 5k I think. Even on the high end, if you can't afford to allocate 2500 per year for the next 4 years you might have chosen the wrong hobby. And that's for garmin equipement which if that's what you are installing, I don't think you should be complaining about money. The lynx unit is somewhere in the middle.

Seems to me like you are making a big fuss over nothing, or at the very least, over reacting.

uAvionix have a very nice product there, I had it pre-ordered and installed it right away when it came in my last airplane. The tailbeaconx is fine but I have big issue with that stupid AV30C. As a control head, it is a major PITA to put in the code, gotta twist that tinny knob carefully, and hit a tiny button beside it to change the next digit. And the unit itself is not good. airspeed and altitude reading is always off slightly even after calibration. Screen has a low refresh rate of maybe 25hz maximum, lagging behind significantly. The attitude information is also not very accurate. After a prolonged turned, it will show a 5 degree bank when ive clearly straight and level. That's a piece of instrument I don't want in my airplane.
If uAvionix come out with another control head (the rumored AV22), I'd gladly give them another try in my new airplane. But at this moment I'm not interested in installing an AV30 again. At this moment, AV30C is the only control head for certified aircraft.

[khedrei]

From what i read, the mandate isn't until 2028 for C, D, and E airspace and aparently the liklihood of them meeting the deadline is low, so you will have a couple extra years at least. Its also TC, not NC that has the mandate. You can also probably be allowed through the airspace with a single belly mounted antenna but that will remain to be seen. Yes, the Garmin unit is 10k or more. But you can get a Uavionics tail beacon unit with a AV30 for about 5k I think. Even on the high end, if you can't afford to allocate 2500 per year for the next 4 years you might have chosen the wrong hobby. And that's for garmin equipement which if that's what you are installing, I don't think you should be complaining about money. The lynx unit is somewhere in the middle.

Seems to me like you are making a big fuss over nothing, or at the very least, over reacting.

There's two problem to this. 2500$ isn't a lot of money, but when you spend that money on something uesless, that's a problem. And it is problem NavCan or TC want us to fork out extra cost comparing to US installation, while also bringing us less value or function. I'd gladly spend 10k for ads-b but I'm upset of paying more and getting less.

Second, 2028 is very late. Canada, especially southern airspace around Toronto or Montreal need ADS-B YESTERDAY, it would be better for everyone if navcan accepts 1090es or even better 978 UAT and mandate it tomorrow, so everywhere can be seen earlier. Dragging the deadline for some expensive non sense is risking people's life. I can't count how many close call I have around toronto with flight school or glider idiots that show up out of nowhere.

Wait.. you want the mandate yesterday because it will save people's lives but you feel you get no value?? Want the mandate but you don't??

Let me guess...You want a ground station mandate, not a satellite mandate. So now you are arguing over an even smaller amount of money.... a ground station mandate will still cost you 5-7k.

Seriously...?

You just argued the benefit of saving someone's life... but since it doesn't come with wx....

[IJNShiroyuki]

Or... wait for the "no lead" mandate that could require everyone to overhaul their engine or have some additional parts or other costly thing required.

I would also argue that it does have a benefit. Flight following and service available across the entire country. Better ifr separation. Etc. I found out when I was flying my plane north of 66 that they could see me the whole time even at 4k feet. Was nice to know I could have had good help if I needed it.

Is it worth 10k... maybe... maybe not. But it certainly isn't "nothing" in return.

Sure if you fly out of radar coverage a lot, that definitely worth it. But how many of us fly out of radar coverage frequently? And how much does it bother you? It doesn't bother me at all because if all aircraft have any kind of ADS-B installed, regardless it's diversity or not, 1090ES or 978UAT, I can see them on my ads-b in, so I won't need atc to seperate me in uncrontrolled or non radar covered space, I will seperate myself from other traffic. This also brings back to my other point, Canada need to mandate ADS-B today, no matter the type of ADS-B, so i can seperate myself without bothering the controller that's incresingly grumpy and relunctant to provide service because they are so short staffed.

[IJNShiroyuki]

From what i read, the mandate isn't until 2028 for C, D, and E airspace and aparently the liklihood of them meeting the deadline is low, so you will have a couple extra years at least. Its also TC, not NC that has the mandate. You can also probably be allowed through the airspace with a single belly mounted antenna but that will remain to be seen. Yes, the Garmin unit is 10k or more. But you can get a Uavionics tail beacon unit with a AV30 for about 5k I think. Even on the high end, if you can't afford to allocate 2500 per year for the next 4 years you might have chosen the wrong hobby. And that's for garmin equipement which if that's what you are installing, I don't think you should be complaining about money. The lynx unit is somewhere in the middle.

Seems to me like you are making a big fuss over nothing, or at the very least, over reacting.

There's two problem to this. 2500$ isn't a lot of money, but when you spend that money on something uesless, that's a problem. And it is problem NavCan or TC want us to fork out extra cost comparing to US installation, while also bringing us less value or function. I'd gladly spend 10k for ads-b but I'm upset of paying more and getting less.

Second, 2028 is very late. Canada, especially southern airspace around Toronto or Montreal need ADS-B YESTERDAY, it would be better for everyone if navcan accepts 1090es or even better 978 UAT and mandate it tomorrow, so everywhere can be seen earlier. Dragging the deadline for some expensive non sense is risking people's life. I can't count how many close call I have around toronto with flight school or glider idiots that show up out of nowhere.

Wait.. you want the mandate yesterday because it will save people's lives but you feel you get no value?? Want the mandate but you don't??

Let me guess...You want a ground station mandate, not a satellite mandate. So now you are arguing over an even smaller amount of money.... a ground station mandate will still cost you 5-7k.

Seriously...?

You just argued the benefit of saving someone's life... but since it doesn't come with wx....

I thought I made myself clear, but I'm going to type it out again.
Instead of dragging this costly diversity requirement out to 2028 which few private owner is willing to comply, they should accept non diversity and 978 standard and mandate it ASAP. 978 only cost 2000$ and one hour to install, and then we can all see each other right away.

[khedrei]

Or... wait for the "no lead" mandate that could require everyone to overhaul their engine or have some additional parts or other costly thing required.

I would also argue that it does have a benefit. Flight following and service available across the entire country. Better ifr separation. Etc. I found out when I was flying my plane north of 66 that they could see me the whole time even at 4k feet. Was nice to know I could have had good help if I needed it.

Is it worth 10k... maybe... maybe not. But it certainly isn't "nothing" in return.

Sure if you fly out of radar coverage a lot, that definitely worth it. But how many of us fly out of radar coverage frequently? And how much does it bother you? It doesn't bother me at all because if all aircraft have any kind of ADS-B installed, regardless it's diversity or not, 1090ES or 978UAT, I can see them on my ads-b in, so I won't need atc to seperate me in uncrontrolled or non radar covered space, I will seperate myself from other traffic. This also brings back to my other point, Canada need to mandate ADS-B today, no matter the type of ADS-B, so i can seperate myself without bothering the controller that's incresingly grumpy and relunctant to provide service because they are so short staffed.

Ok... so you want a mandate because it's safer and the airspace is so busy, you just don't want to pay for it. Got it.

Maybe Kamala can help you out while she is still relevant.

[khedrei]

You want a cheaper mandate... got it.

I'm glad you arent prepping our airspace for the future.

[IJNShiroyuki]

Or... wait for the "no lead" mandate that could require everyone to overhaul their engine or have some additional parts or other costly thing required.

I would also argue that it does have a benefit. Flight following and service available across the entire country. Better ifr separation. Etc. I found out when I was flying my plane north of 66 that they could see me the whole time even at 4k feet. Was nice to know I could have had good help if I needed it.

Is it worth 10k... maybe... maybe not. But it certainly isn't "nothing" in return.

Sure if you fly out of radar coverage a lot, that definitely worth it. But how many of us fly out of radar coverage frequently? And how much does it bother you? It doesn't bother me at all because if all aircraft have any kind of ADS-B installed, regardless it's diversity or not, 1090ES or 978UAT, I can see them on my ads-b in, so I won't need atc to seperate me in uncrontrolled or non radar covered space, I will seperate myself from other traffic. This also brings back to my other point, Canada need to mandate ADS-B today, no matter the type of ADS-B, so i can seperate myself without bothering the controller that's incresingly grumpy and relunctant to provide service because they are so short staffed.

Ok... so you want a mandate because it's safer and the airspace is so busy, you just don't want to pay for it. Got it.

Maybe Kamala can help you out while she is still relevant.

I don't know why would you bring politics into this. I will leave this conversation here and you can enjoy the rest of your night. Not really interested in talking to someone like you.
And clearly you can't understand 978uat and non diversity (that's cheaper) will work just as good for air to air avoidance.

[khedrei]

Sure if you fly out of radar coverage a lot, that definitely worth it. But how many of us fly out of radar coverage frequently? And how much does it bother you? It doesn't bother me at all because if all aircraft have any kind of ADS-B installed, regardless it's diversity or not, 1090ES or 978UAT, I can see them on my ads-b in, so I won't need atc to seperate me in uncrontrolled or non radar covered space, I will seperate myself from other traffic. This also brings back to my other point, Canada need to mandate ADS-B today, no matter the type of ADS-B, so i can seperate myself without bothering the controller that's incresingly grumpy and relunctant to provide service because they are so short staffed.

Ok... so you want a mandate because it's safer and the airspace is so busy, you just don't want to pay for it. Got it.

Maybe Kamala can help you out while she is still relevant.

I don't know why would you bring politics into this. I will leave this conversation here and you can enjoy the rest of your night. Not really interested in talking to someone like you.
And clearly you can't understand 978uat and non diversity (that's cheaper) will work just as good for air to air avoidance.

I'm not trying to bring politics into anything. Just a cheeky comment about you wanting something without having to pay for it. I don't actually want to talk politics.

I understand exactly what 978uat is and non diversity. This is a clear example of you wanting the mandate you want, when you want, and how you want it.

You are also happy to pay for adsb in while complaining about the added cost of diversity. Also happy with an out only mandate to make your life safer while the aircraft with out only won't be able to see you because they opted for the cheaper solution.

There were lots of possibilities for what was to come. I can see why the wanted the best solution that would solve the most problems for the least money. It wouldn't please everyone, and neither would the deadline, but overall I'm happy with the direction this type of thing is going.

Stop contradicting yourself.

[fish4life]

Satellite makes sense in Canada because why should there be 2 separate standards?
Northern Canada and even NW Ontario has lots of areas that GA aircraft and GA altitudes won’t be in range of ground stations.

[IJNShiroyuki]

Satellite makes sense in Canada because why should there be 2 separate standards?
Northern Canada and even NW Ontario has lots of areas that GA aircraft and GA altitudes won’t be in range of ground stations.

Maybe because canada is the only country that mandate diversity ads-b? In southern Ontario there’s not only local traffic, many American plane fly through as well, and a lot of US owner fly to canada for their vocation. It reduces cost to operators that only operates in southern airspace and is more in line with foreign mandate.
For NW Ontario, maybe they should start with forcing all float planes to have transponders, too many beaver and otter buzzing around that won’t even show up on tcas.

[Big Pistons Forever]

We will never see space based ADSB in low level airspace. The inconvenient fact that Nav Canada won’t publicly acknowledge is that the space based system is already at full capacity with the existing high level mandate. For a variety of practical reasons increasing the capacity isn’t really doable.

[khedrei]

Big pistons what do you mean by at capacity? As in the IFR spacing can't get any closer? Like on the NATs? Or do you mean that data wise the system can't receive or send additional data due to bandwidth? So you think the 2028 mandate will never happen?

For the OP, the idea behind the space based mandate is simple. Nav Canada partnered with Aerion to put these satalites. Enough to bring total surveillance through the entire world. At least that's what was said when I was training there. Eventually every aircraft around the world would have it and every ATC center in every country could see all aircraft. It takes a while though. The space based system is superior in that regard so the ground station mandate would make little sense.

Sorry you don't get to pick your mandate.

[goingnowherefast]

They also don't have the ATC controllers to manage more traffic. Doesn't matter if the surveillance equipment is capable.

[Taxivasion]

This is what happens when you have very weak representation/ lobby groups in Canada. We get nothing in return. wx, pireps, notams for free in the US system are very helpful and increase safety exponentially.

[digits_]

We will never see space based ADSB in low level airspace. The inconvenient fact that Nav Canada won’t publicly acknowledge is that the space based system is already at full capacity with the existing high level mandate. For a variety of practical reasons increasing the capacity isn’t really doable.

Reminds me of the situation in the Netherlands when Mode S transponders became mandatory. Every airplane needed to have one, including small piston aircraft, because it would be so much safer. Especially when flying in proximity to Schiphol Amsterdam airport. Can't imagine operating there without the mode S, OMG a miracle nobody got killed yet!

After implementation general aviation was instructed to switch off their mode S transponders around Amsterdam airport because airliners were getting too many TCAS alerts....

This Canadian ADSB mandate feels eerily similar.

[boeingboy]

This is what happens when you have very weak representation/ lobby groups in Canada. We get nothing in return. wx, pireps, notams for free in the US system are very helpful and increase safety exponentially.

All that is only available on 978 - the reason TC went with 1080 is it's the world standard. 978 is only in the US and is ground based only. No logical reason to go 978.

[IJNShiroyuki]

This is what happens when you have very weak representation/ lobby groups in Canada. We get nothing in return. wx, pireps, notams for free in the US system are very helpful and increase safety exponentially.

All that is only available on 978 - the reason TC went with 1080 is it's the world standard. 978 is only in the US and is ground based only. No logical reason to go 978.

All those benefits should be a great reason to adpot 978 UAT, no other country have as much GA traffic as Canada and the US.

[IJNShiroyuki]

This is what happens when you have very weak representation/ lobby groups in Canada. We get nothing in return. wx, pireps, notams for free in the US system are very helpful and increase safety exponentially.

Yeah and we get shafted for more fees and cost, also while getting less. Seems to be the norm of flying in Canada.