Hey everyone,
What should a aviation job seeker do if, as of the moment before hiring, they don't have a professional reference as they are self employed and run a fairly successful business? How would you go about representing that, while at the same time, showing you have no professional reference because of it without looking bad?

Interviewers/recruiters, is that a bad thing?

What job are you applying for? just the plane. References go far. for first job, find a local pilot dive bar. ingratiate yourself, chances are theyll know someone

aviran9111 wrote: ↑Fri Apr 04, 2025 1:50 pm Hey everyone,
What should a aviation job seeker do if, as of the moment before hiring, they don't have a professional reference as they are self employed and run a fairly successful business? How would you go about representing that, while at the same time, showing you have no professional reference because of it without looking bad?

Interviewers/recruiters, is that a bad thing?

Can't you find a flight instructor to use as a reference? Or a fellow pilot?
Professionally you could use one of your customers or employees or business partners. But I doubt anyone would care though.

digits_ wrote: ↑Fri Apr 04, 2025 6:55 pm

aviran9111 wrote: ↑Fri Apr 04, 2025 1:50 pm Hey everyone,
What should a aviation job seeker do if, as of the moment before hiring, they don't have a professional reference as they are self employed and run a fairly successful business? How would you go about representing that, while at the same time, showing you have no professional reference because of it without looking bad?

Interviewers/recruiters, is that a bad thing?

Can't you find a flight instructor to use as a reference? Or a fellow pilot?
Professionally you could use one of your customers or employees or business partners. But I doubt anyone would care though.

Asking a customer to be a reference isn't good for business, and I can't use them without their permission as it violates the Privacy Act and PIPEDA.
I don't have business partners, our business, which do offers B2B, is 100% independent, and the only other employee is my wife.

My flight instructors, for the most part, are US based, and since I haven't worked as one, I don't think any employer will consider them professional reference.

"But I doubt anyone would care though." So in aviation, references are not important?

rigpiggy wrote: ↑Fri Apr 04, 2025 5:04 pm What job are you applying for? just the plane. References go far. for first job, find a local pilot dive bar. ingratiate yourself, chances are theyll know someone

If only. I live in a remote community in NorthWestern Ontario. The biggest city is 800 KM away.

We do have quite a few big airliners coming in, sadly I got the TBNT from most of them. Still trying to stay positive though

aviran9111 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 06, 2025 9:56 am
"But I doubt anyone would care though." So in aviation, references are not important?

Professional references outside of aviation are likely not important, nobody ever checked mine. For a first aviation job it makes sense you won't have them.

What can potentially be important are references from inside the industry, such as flight instructors or examiners. You should have those. Even if they are US based. You didn't do any flight training in Canada? I would find it weird you can't find a Canadian instructor reference. An employer might have the same question but would likely move on to the next resume though.

digits_ wrote: ↑Sun Apr 06, 2025 11:03 am

aviran9111 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 06, 2025 9:56 am
"But I doubt anyone would care though." So in aviation, references are not important?

Professional references outside of aviation are likely not important, nobody ever checked mine. For a first aviation job it makes sense you won't have them.

What can potentially be important are references from inside the industry, such as flight instructors or examiners. You should have those. Even if they are US based. You didn't do any flight training in Canada? I would find it weird you can't find a Canadian instructor reference. An employer might have the same question but would likely move on to the next resume though.

Why is it weird, though? It is very possible to do all the training outside Canada, and it's not only cheaper, but you also gather way more hours and experience (US Training are MUCH more hands-on experience oriented. It's extremely common to have most, if not all, your IFR training done in IMC. I did most of mine in IMC there).
There is a bilateral conversion agreement between the countries for PPL, CPL, IFR and ATP/ATPL. That agreements allow for a conversion without any flight being down at the other country, only short written exam for the airlaw only (one for license, PPL/CPL/ATPL and one for the IFR), on top of the IPC for IFR (which the US Checkride is considered an IPC under the agreement, even if it's done on a single engine, since the OEI approach is done as part of the CMEL, not the IFR itself).

If an employer moves on because my experience is mostly done in the US, I'm pretty sure it's an employer I wouldn't want to work for. I'm not regarding for a second that I did my training there. No waitlists, no waiting months on examiners, real life experience etc. I'd even call that an asset - imagine your company requires PPC in the States, that means every candidate must be TSA approved, which means using TSA approved fingerprinting agency and waiting nearly a month. I'm already approved until 2029, which also make my US entries way easier than most.

I have no idea where my Canadian instructors are, never kept in touch given it's over 5 years.

I did thought about the US examiners (AKA DPE - Designated Pilot Examiners), and I did use the same one for my IFR, CPL an Multi, but our interactions were kept to Three meetings, one for each exams, and that is it. I passed all in my first attempt, and never heard back from him, so it seems kinda odd. I might put my US instructor though, assuming he isn't in airline at this point.

aviran9111 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 06, 2025 2:06 pm

digits_ wrote: ↑Sun Apr 06, 2025 11:03 am

aviran9111 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 06, 2025 9:56 am
"But I doubt anyone would care though." So in aviation, references are not important?

Professional references outside of aviation are likely not important, nobody ever checked mine. For a first aviation job it makes sense you won't have them.

What can potentially be important are references from inside the industry, such as flight instructors or examiners. You should have those. Even if they are US based. You didn't do any flight training in Canada? I would find it weird you can't find a Canadian instructor reference. An employer might have the same question but would likely move on to the next resume though.

Why is it weird, though?

Without your explanation, I would assume 2 options if you're applying without Canadian references:

1) You've never flown in Canada, in which case I'd prefer to hire someone who has flown here. The Canadian system is similar to the US, but still has some distinct differences.
2) You have flown in Canada, but could not find any instructor or pilot that would allow you to serve as a reference. That would raise a major red flag for me.

aviran9111 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 06, 2025 2:06 pm
It is very possible to do all the training outside Canada, and it's not only cheaper, but you also gather way more hours and experience (US Training are MUCH more hands-on experience oriented. It's extremely common to have most, if not all, your IFR training done in IMC. I did most of mine in IMC there).
There is a bilateral conversion agreement between the countries for PPL, CPL, IFR and ATP/ATPL. That agreements allow for a conversion without any flight being down at the other country, only short written exam for the airlaw only (one for license, PPL/CPL/ATPL and one for the IFR), on top of the IPC for IFR (which the US Checkride is considered an IPC under the agreement, even if it's done on a single engine, since the OEI approach is done as part of the CMEL, not the IFR itself).

Ok, but applying to work in a country without having flown in it, is a bit odd.

aviran9111 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 06, 2025 2:06 pm If an employer moves on because my experience is mostly done in the US, I'm pretty sure it's an employer I wouldn't want to work for.

Fair, but your other posts give the impression that you're not really in the position to turn down employers. If one employer has questions, the others likely will have questions as well.

It's not that this is unsurmountable, but it makes things harder. And if you're up against massive competition -which for first jobs you still are-, then this doesn't help.

aviran9111 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 06, 2025 2:06 pm I have no idea where my Canadian instructors are, never kept in touch given it's over 5 years.

Aha, so you have flown in Canada. Which brings me back to a bit odd that you can't find a Canadian reference. They don't need to know your intimate details, just a 'did this guy look like a complete idiot or would he be able to land a plane safely?'

aviran9111 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 06, 2025 2:06 pm I did thought about the US examiners (AKA DPE - Designated Pilot Examiners), and I did use the same one for my IFR, CPL an Multi, but our interactions were kept to Three meetings, one for each exams, and that is it. I passed all in my first attempt, and never heard back from him, so it seems kinda odd. I might put my US instructor though, assuming he isn't in airline at this point.

Then get in touch and find out and use them as a reference. But find some Canadians as well. Or don't, up to you.

digits_ wrote: ↑Sun Apr 06, 2025 2:49 pm

aviran9111 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 06, 2025 2:06 pm

digits_ wrote: ↑Sun Apr 06, 2025 11:03 am

Professional references outside of aviation are likely not important, nobody ever checked mine. For a first aviation job it makes sense you won't have them.

What can potentially be important are references from inside the industry, such as flight instructors or examiners. You should have those. Even if they are US based. You didn't do any flight training in Canada? I would find it weird you can't find a Canadian instructor reference. An employer might have the same question but would likely move on to the next resume though.

Why is it weird, though?

Without your explanation, I would assume 2 options if you're applying without Canadian references:

1) You've never flown in Canada, in which case I'd prefer to hire someone who has flown here. The Canadian system is similar to the US, but still has some distinct differences.
2) You have flown in Canada, but could not find any instructor or pilot that would allow you to serve as a reference. That would raise a major red flag for me.

aviran9111 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 06, 2025 2:06 pm
It is very possible to do all the training outside Canada, and it's not only cheaper, but you also gather way more hours and experience (US Training are MUCH more hands-on experience oriented. It's extremely common to have most, if not all, your IFR training done in IMC. I did most of mine in IMC there).
There is a bilateral conversion agreement between the countries for PPL, CPL, IFR and ATP/ATPL. That agreements allow for a conversion without any flight being down at the other country, only short written exam for the airlaw only (one for license, PPL/CPL/ATPL and one for the IFR), on top of the IPC for IFR (which the US Checkride is considered an IPC under the agreement, even if it's done on a single engine, since the OEI approach is done as part of the CMEL, not the IFR itself).

Ok, but applying to work in a country without having flown in it, is a bit odd.

aviran9111 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 06, 2025 2:06 pm If an employer moves on because my experience is mostly done in the US, I'm pretty sure it's an employer I wouldn't want to work for.

Fair, but your other posts give the impression that you're not really in the position to turn down employers. If one employer has questions, the others likely will have questions as well.

It's not that this is unsurmountable, but it makes things harder. And if you're up against massive competition -which for first jobs you still are-, then this doesn't help.

aviran9111 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 06, 2025 2:06 pm I have no idea where my Canadian instructors are, never kept in touch given it's over 5 years.

Aha, so you have flown in Canada. Which brings me back to a bit odd that you can't find a Canadian reference. They don't need to know your intimate details, just a 'did this guy look like a complete idiot or would he be able to land a plane safely?'

aviran9111 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 06, 2025 2:06 pm I did thought about the US examiners (AKA DPE - Designated Pilot Examiners), and I did use the same one for my IFR, CPL an Multi, but our interactions were kept to Three meetings, one for each exams, and that is it. I passed all in my first attempt, and never heard back from him, so it seems kinda odd. I might put my US instructor though, assuming he isn't in airline at this point.

Then get in touch and find out and use them as a reference. But find some Canadians as well. Or don't, up to you.

To me there is no difference between that to dismiss me for my age. Yeah it's illegal, but who cares, I will never be able to prove that.
I will never refuse an opportunity, but that isn't what I said now, did I? I said that if a company doesn't want me to due to my US experience, I can't change that and the feeling is mutual - I don't want to work for them either, which is meaningless anyway as they don't want me.

And I'm being honest here - if I were my Canadian instructor in this hypothetical scenario, I wouldn't provide anything positive or negative, as how could I? our last interaction was over 5 years ago, I wouldn't know how said person is flying nowadays.

aviran9111 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 06, 2025 4:44 pm
To me there is no difference between that to dismiss me for my age. Yeah it's illegal, but who cares, I will never be able to prove that.
I will never refuse an opportunity, but that isn't what I said now, did I? I said that if a company doesn't want me to due to my US experience, I can't change that and the feeling is mutual - I don't want to work for them either, which is meaningless anyway as they don't want me.

They won't turn you down because of your US experience, they might turn you down due to your perceived lack of Canadian experience. There's a big difference between turning someone down because of their age, or because they don't have any recent references that you find applicable to the job.

You're splitting hairs about the 'I don't want to work for them either' statements. One way or the other, you're making yourself less attractive by not providing recent references. Based on the information you provided here, and assuming the same info is visible on your resume, your lack of Canadian references, and preferably recent references, could hurt you. This is something you can change. Go fly with with a Canadian instructor in a Canadian airplane for a couple of flights. Build a rapport, and ask him to be a reference. That's it.

Based on your other posts, you do not have the luxury to pass over opportunities to make yourself and your resume look more attractive. You can't change your age. You can't realistically change your family situation, but you can change your lack of references. That's doable.

aviran9111 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 06, 2025 4:44 pm And I'm being honest here - if I were my Canadian instructor in this hypothetical scenario, I wouldn't provide anything positive or negative, as how could I? our last interaction was over 5 years ago, I wouldn't know how said person is flying nowadays.

"Oh yeah, I flew with him 5 years ago. Oh yeah he was a nice guy. Picked up things quickly. I don't know what he's been up to now, no. but he seemed allright"

vs

"Ah, that guy. Right. I remember him. I don't know. It's been a while. He was struggling at the time. It might have improved, I'm not sure."