Ferrying a friend's plane home as a PPL

[Northbound69]

Hi everyone,

A friend of mine wants to fly out somewhere to buy a car and drive it home.

He asked me to fly the rental plane home for him though to help him out.

But the kicker is he is saying I have to pay for the hours on the RTB and fuel because I'm a PPL.

I have more than enough time for any rating I'd need, so I'm not sure this would count as consideration. It would be no different than flying a friend's plane and they didn't charge me anything for it.

I'm listed on the insurance and have flown this plane before.

Is this a legal operation?

And, am I being the asshole by suggesting that since he's the one who wants the favour, he can sign for the bill at the end?

[digits_]

Doesn't sound like a 'friend' to me

The CARs say:

401.28 (1) The holder of a private pilot licence shall not act as the pilot-in-command of an aeroplane or helicopter for hire or reward unless the conditions set out in subsection (2), (3), (4) or (5), as applicable, are met.

(2) The holder of a private pilot licence may receive reimbursement for costs incurred in respect of a flight if the holder

(a) is the owner or operator of the aircraft;

(b) conducts the flight for purposes other than hire or reward;

(c) carries passengers only incidentally to the purposes of the flight; and

(d) receives a reimbursement that

(i) is provided only by the passengers referred to in paragraph (c), and

(ii) is for the purpose of sharing the costs of fuel, oil and fees charged against the aircraft in respect of the flight, as applicable.

(3) The holder of a private pilot licence may receive reimbursement from the holder’s employer for costs incurred in respect of a flight if the holder

(a) is employed on a full-time basis by the employer for purposes other than flying;

(b) conducts the flight on the employer’s business and the flight is incidental to the execution of the holder’s duties; and

(c) receives a reimbursement that

(i) in the case of an aircraft owned by the holder, is paid at a rate based on distance travelled or number of hours flown and that does not exceed the total of the holder’s direct operating costs and the fees charged against the aircraft in respect of the flight, or

(ii) in the case of a rental aircraft, does not exceed the total of the holder’s rental costs, direct operating costs and the fees charged against the aircraft in respect of the flight.

(4) The holder of a private pilot licence may receive reimbursement from a charitable, not-for-profit or public security organization in respect of a flight conducted by the holder as a volunteer for that organization if the reimbursement

(a) in the case of an aircraft owned by the holder, is paid at a rate based on distance travelled or number of hours flown and does not exceed the total of the holder’s direct operating costs and the fees charged against the aircraft in respect of the flight; or

(b) in the case of a rental aircraft, does not exceed the total of the holder’s rental costs, direct operating costs and the fees charged against the aircraft in respect of the flight.

(5) The holder of a private pilot licence who is a farmer, as defined in section 700.01, may conduct aerial work involving the dispersal of products for agricultural purposes for hire or reward if the holder

(a) does not hold an air operator certificate;

(b) owns the aircraft that is used to disperse the products;

(c) has at least 150 hours of flight time as pilot-in-command, including at least 25 hours of flight time in the type of aircraft being used;

(d) ensures that no more than the minimum number of crew members needed to disperse the products is on board the aircraft;

(e) ensures that the dispersal takes place within 25 miles of the centre of the holder’s farm; and

(f) ensures that no dispersal is conducted within a control zone without the authority of the appropriate air traffic control unit.

Since you're not the owner of the aircraft, you'll be stuck in option 1. You can't fly for hire or reward. Which brings us back to the age old discussion if free flying hours are hire or reward. Last few times this discussion happened here, no clear reference could be provided for the Canadian situation.

Personally I would say that you don't get rewarded at all. You're spending your time flying an aircraft home as a favour to a friend.

I'm assuming no other passengers are on board? It's my understanding TC mainly cares about the passengers in these grey PPLs-flying-for-free-hours scenarios. I doubt your specific flight would be high on their radar, even if they were to deem it illegal.

IMO you definitely have the moral right to ask your friend to pay at least half the cost of the airplane rental and/or the full cost. But that has nothing to do with the CARs.

He can always gift you a gift certificate for a coule hours of flying as well for your birthday. I doubt he's really concerned about the legal side of things though...

[Tbayer2021]

I agree with digits. Kind of weird that he wants you to pay for the fact that you're doing him a favour. Would be like asking friends that helped you move to pay for the beer and pizza.

[Northbound69]

Doesn't sound like a 'friend' to me

Yeah...normally he's not this inconsiderate.

Since you're not the owner of the aircraft, you'll be stuck in option 1. You can't fly for hire or reward. Which brings us back to the age old discussion if free flying hours are hire or reward. Last few times this discussion happened here, no clear reference could be provided for the Canadian situation.

Personally I would say that you don't get rewarded at all. You're spending your time flying an aircraft home as a favour to a friend.

I'm assuming no other passengers are on board? It's my understanding TC mainly cares about the passengers in these grey PPLs-flying-for-free-hours scenarios. I doubt your specific flight would be high on their radar, even if they were to deem it illegal.

IMO you definitely have the moral right to ask your friend to pay at least half the cost of the airplane rental and/or the full cost. But that has nothing to do with the CARs.

He can always gift you a gift certificate for a coule hours of flying as well for your birthday. I doubt he's really concerned about the legal side of things though...

Yup, no passengers, it's just me ferrying an empty plane home so he can drive the car home. So I also interpreted it as I get no benefit out of this and that TC wouldn't really care.

I think it's just a case of a pilot being cheap...

I'll tell him to work out the cost of shipping the car and see if that's better for him.

Me flying his plane home probably also about how much a one-way car rental back costs.

[nohojob]

Drive the car back and let him fly the plane

[Bede]

Since you're not the owner of the aircraft, you'll be stuck in option 1. You can't fly for hire or reward. Which brings us back to the age old discussion if free flying hours are hire or reward. Last few times this discussion happened here, no clear reference could be provided for the Canadian situation.

It's not an age old discussion. In Canada, free flying hours are not consideration. Consideration has to be monetary or indirectly monetary (ie, you'll increase your sales because you gave someone an aerial tour of a cottage property.)

What the OP is proposing is legal. However, "friend" wanting you to pay: that doesn't seem cool.

[digits_]

It's not an age old discussion. In Canada, free flying hours are not consideration. Consideration has to be monetary or indirectly monetary (ie, you'll increase your sales because you gave someone an aerial tour of a cottage property.)

Ah apologies, I wasn't aware this train of thought was documented somewhere. I thought it was more of a "nobody has ever been fined for this, so we're all assuming it's ok" kind of situation.

[cdnavater]

Doesn't sound like a 'friend' to me

The CARs say:

401.28 (1) The holder of a private pilot licence shall not act as the pilot-in-command of an aeroplane or helicopter for hire or reward unless the conditions set out in subsection (2), (3), (4) or (5), as applicable, are met.

(2) The holder of a private pilot licence may receive reimbursement for costs incurred in respect of a flight if the holder

(a) is the owner or operator of the aircraft;

(b) conducts the flight for purposes other than hire or reward;

(c) carries passengers only incidentally to the purposes of the flight; and

(d) receives a reimbursement that

(i) is provided only by the passengers referred to in paragraph (c), and

(ii) is for the purpose of sharing the costs of fuel, oil and fees charged against the aircraft in respect of the flight, as applicable.

(3) The holder of a private pilot licence may receive reimbursement from the holder’s employer for costs incurred in respect of a flight if the holder

(a) is employed on a full-time basis by the employer for purposes other than flying;

(b) conducts the flight on the employer’s business and the flight is incidental to the execution of the holder’s duties; and

(c) receives a reimbursement that

(i) in the case of an aircraft owned by the holder, is paid at a rate based on distance travelled or number of hours flown and that does not exceed the total of the holder’s direct operating costs and the fees charged against the aircraft in respect of the flight, or

(ii) in the case of a rental aircraft, does not exceed the total of the holder’s rental costs, direct operating costs and the fees charged against the aircraft in respect of the flight.

(4) The holder of a private pilot licence may receive reimbursement from a charitable, not-for-profit or public security organization in respect of a flight conducted by the holder as a volunteer for that organization if the reimbursement

(a) in the case of an aircraft owned by the holder, is paid at a rate based on distance travelled or number of hours flown and does not exceed the total of the holder’s direct operating costs and the fees charged against the aircraft in respect of the flight; or

(b) in the case of a rental aircraft, does not exceed the total of the holder’s rental costs, direct operating costs and the fees charged against the aircraft in respect of the flight.

(5) The holder of a private pilot licence who is a farmer, as defined in section 700.01, may conduct aerial work involving the dispersal of products for agricultural purposes for hire or reward if the holder

(a) does not hold an air operator certificate;

(b) owns the aircraft that is used to disperse the products;

(c) has at least 150 hours of flight time as pilot-in-command, including at least 25 hours of flight time in the type of aircraft being used;

(d) ensures that no more than the minimum number of crew members needed to disperse the products is on board the aircraft;

(e) ensures that the dispersal takes place within 25 miles of the centre of the holder’s farm; and

(f) ensures that no dispersal is conducted within a control zone without the authority of the appropriate air traffic control unit.

Since you're not the owner of the aircraft, you'll be stuck in option 1. You can't fly for hire or reward. Which brings us back to the age old discussion if free flying hours are hire or reward. Last few times this discussion happened here, no clear reference could be provided for the Canadian situation.

Personally I would say that you don't get rewarded at all. You're spending your time flying an aircraft home as a favour to a friend.

I'm assuming no other passengers are on board? It's my understanding TC mainly cares about the passengers in these grey PPLs-flying-for-free-hours scenarios. I doubt your specific flight would be high on their radar, even if they were to deem it illegal.

IMO you definitely have the moral right to ask your friend to pay at least half the cost of the airplane rental and/or the full cost. But that has nothing to do with the CARs.

He can always gift you a gift certificate for a coule hours of flying as well for your birthday. I doubt he's really concerned about the legal side of things though...

Under 2) B) conducts flight for other than hire or reward, I would say he falls under this. A favour for your buddy should not cost you 7nless that buddy is literally asking to borrow money.
The key here is you are entitled to reimbursement, splitting hairs a little if he pays for it, technically the way it is written you can get the cost back from you buddy.
I’m curious, are you building time at all, maybe he thinks he’s helping you with that, if it were me I’d be telling my buddy he pays for the costs or I’m busy that day

[digits_]

Doesn't sound like a 'friend' to me

The CARs say:

401.28 (1) The holder of a private pilot licence shall not act as the pilot-in-command of an aeroplane or helicopter for hire or reward unless the conditions set out in subsection (2), (3), (4) or (5), as applicable, are met.

(2) The holder of a private pilot licence may receive reimbursement for costs incurred in respect of a flight if the holder

(a) is the owner or operator of the aircraft;

(b) conducts the flight for purposes other than hire or reward;

(c) carries passengers only incidentally to the purposes of the flight; and

(d) receives a reimbursement that

(i) is provided only by the passengers referred to in paragraph (c), and

(ii) is for the purpose of sharing the costs of fuel, oil and fees charged against the aircraft in respect of the flight, as applicable.

(3) The holder of a private pilot licence may receive reimbursement from the holder’s employer for costs incurred in respect of a flight if the holder

(a) is employed on a full-time basis by the employer for purposes other than flying;

(b) conducts the flight on the employer’s business and the flight is incidental to the execution of the holder’s duties; and

(c) receives a reimbursement that

(i) in the case of an aircraft owned by the holder, is paid at a rate based on distance travelled or number of hours flown and that does not exceed the total of the holder’s direct operating costs and the fees charged against the aircraft in respect of the flight, or

(ii) in the case of a rental aircraft, does not exceed the total of the holder’s rental costs, direct operating costs and the fees charged against the aircraft in respect of the flight.

(4) The holder of a private pilot licence may receive reimbursement from a charitable, not-for-profit or public security organization in respect of a flight conducted by the holder as a volunteer for that organization if the reimbursement

(a) in the case of an aircraft owned by the holder, is paid at a rate based on distance travelled or number of hours flown and does not exceed the total of the holder’s direct operating costs and the fees charged against the aircraft in respect of the flight; or

(b) in the case of a rental aircraft, does not exceed the total of the holder’s rental costs, direct operating costs and the fees charged against the aircraft in respect of the flight.

(5) The holder of a private pilot licence who is a farmer, as defined in section 700.01, may conduct aerial work involving the dispersal of products for agricultural purposes for hire or reward if the holder

(a) does not hold an air operator certificate;

(b) owns the aircraft that is used to disperse the products;

(c) has at least 150 hours of flight time as pilot-in-command, including at least 25 hours of flight time in the type of aircraft being used;

(d) ensures that no more than the minimum number of crew members needed to disperse the products is on board the aircraft;

(e) ensures that the dispersal takes place within 25 miles of the centre of the holder’s farm; and

(f) ensures that no dispersal is conducted within a control zone without the authority of the appropriate air traffic control unit.

Since you're not the owner of the aircraft, you'll be stuck in option 1. You can't fly for hire or reward. Which brings us back to the age old discussion if free flying hours are hire or reward. Last few times this discussion happened here, no clear reference could be provided for the Canadian situation.

Personally I would say that you don't get rewarded at all. You're spending your time flying an aircraft home as a favour to a friend.

I'm assuming no other passengers are on board? It's my understanding TC mainly cares about the passengers in these grey PPLs-flying-for-free-hours scenarios. I doubt your specific flight would be high on their radar, even if they were to deem it illegal.

IMO you definitely have the moral right to ask your friend to pay at least half the cost of the airplane rental and/or the full cost. But that has nothing to do with the CARs.

He can always gift you a gift certificate for a coule hours of flying as well for your birthday. I doubt he's really concerned about the legal side of things though...

Under 2) B) conducts flight for other than hire or reward, I would say he falls under this. A favour for your buddy should not cost you 7nless that buddy is literally asking to borrow money.
The key here is you are entitled to reimbursement, splitting hairs a little if he pays for it, technically the way it is written you can get the cost back from you buddy.
I’m curious, are you building time at all, maybe he thinks he’s helping you with that, if it were me I’d be telling my buddy he pays for the costs or I’m busy that day

All the paragraphs under 2) are only applicable to aircraft owners, not renters. You need to satisfy all requirements under 2) to qualify.

[cdnavater]

Doesn't sound like a 'friend' to me

The CARs say:



Since you're not the owner of the aircraft, you'll be stuck in option 1. You can't fly for hire or reward. Which brings us back to the age old discussion if free flying hours are hire or reward. Last few times this discussion happened here, no clear reference could be provided for the Canadian situation.

Personally I would say that you don't get rewarded at all. You're spending your time flying an aircraft home as a favour to a friend.

I'm assuming no other passengers are on board? It's my understanding TC mainly cares about the passengers in these grey PPLs-flying-for-free-hours scenarios. I doubt your specific flight would be high on their radar, even if they were to deem it illegal.

IMO you definitely have the moral right to ask your friend to pay at least half the cost of the airplane rental and/or the full cost. But that has nothing to do with the CARs.

He can always gift you a gift certificate for a coule hours of flying as well for your birthday. I doubt he's really concerned about the legal side of things though...

Under 2) B) conducts flight for other than hire or reward, I would say he falls under this. A favour for your buddy should not cost you 7nless that buddy is literally asking to borrow money.
The key here is you are entitled to reimbursement, splitting hairs a little if he pays for it, technically the way it is written you can get the cost back from you buddy.
I’m curious, are you building time at all, maybe he thinks he’s helping you with that, if it were me I’d be telling my buddy he pays for the costs or I’m busy that day

All the paragraphs under 2) are only applicable to aircraft owners, not renters. You need to satisfy all requirements under 2) to qualify.

Interesting the regulations there are a lot of “or”, in this case it is owner or operator, below is the legal definition of operator which you can see leaves it open. Otherwise could cover literally anything else, borrowed, stolen, etc
https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/reg ... air%20show

operator, in respect of an aircraft, means the person that has possession of the aircraft as owner, lessee or otherwise; (utilisateur)

[digits_]

Interesting the regulations there are a lot of “or”, in this case it is owner or operator, below is the legal definition of operator which you can see leaves it open. Otherwise could cover literally anything else, borrowed, stolen, etc
https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/reg ... air%20show

operator, in respect of an aircraft, means the person that has possession of the aircraft as owner, lessee or otherwise; (utilisateur)

You're right that it does say that, but looking at the context and the other places were 'operator' is being used, I think it's a bit of a stretch to conclude that. It would also make the condition of 2 a) a bit pointless, as everyone would qualify.

However, 2 d) i) would make this point of the discussion irrelevant though, as there are no passengers involved in the legs that the OP would be flying.

[Northbound69]

I’m curious, are you building time at all, maybe he thinks he’s helping you with that, if it were me I’d be telling my buddy he pays for the costs or I’m busy that day

Nope, not time building towards anything. I've got all the hours I'd ever need.

And yeah, I told him that a one way car rental is what he's really looking for.

He complained about how long it would take him and the cost and I said those were his options, haven't heard back.

He's definitely slid down my friend ranking this week.

Thanks for the advice everyone!

[cdnavater]

Interesting the regulations there are a lot of “or”, in this case it is owner or operator, below is the legal definition of operator which you can see leaves it open. Otherwise could cover literally anything else, borrowed, stolen, etc
https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/reg ... air%20show

operator, in respect of an aircraft, means the person that has possession of the aircraft as owner, lessee or otherwise; (utilisateur)

You're right that it does say that, but looking at the context and the other places were 'operator' is being used, I think it's a bit of a stretch to conclude that. It would also make the condition of 2 a) a bit pointless, as everyone would qualify.

However, 2 d) i) would make this point of the discussion irrelevant though, as there are no passengers involved in the legs that the OP would be flying.

I did see that but I guarantee you this guy is fine, he is not doing this for hire or reward. The intent is to prevent chisel charters not having your buddy fly your airplane home but really they should make the language more clear and if this guy is worried he should call T.C and get their take on it.

[cdnavater]

I’m curious, are you building time at all, maybe he thinks he’s helping you with that, if it were me I’d be telling my buddy he pays for the costs or I’m busy that day

Nope, not time building towards anything. I've got all the hours I'd ever need.

And yeah, I told him that a one way car rental is what he's really looking for.

He complained about how long it would take him and the cost and I said those were his options, haven't heard back.

He's definitely slid down my friend ranking this week.

Thanks for the advice everyone!

Yep, how he doesn’t see it is baffling.

[CpnCrunch]

Nope, not time building towards anything. I've got all the hours I'd ever need.

And yeah, I told him that a one way car rental is what he's really looking for.

He complained about how long it would take him and the cost and I said those were his options, haven't heard back.

He's definitely slid down my friend ranking this week.

Thanks for the advice everyone!

Sometimes people can seem friendly, and you think they are your friend, until something like this happens. I suspect that even if he agreed to pay for the fuel you might have trouble getting the money out of him.

[BTD]

I’m curious, are you building time at all, maybe he thinks he’s helping you with that, if it were me I’d be telling my buddy he pays for the costs or I’m busy that day

Nope, not time building towards anything. I've got all the hours I'd ever need.

And yeah, I told him that a one way car rental is what he's really looking for.

He complained about how long it would take him and the cost and I said those were his options, haven't heard back.

He's definitely slid down my friend ranking this week.

Thanks for the advice everyone!

Tell him to buy an airline ticket. If it’s going to take way too long, than that must mean it’s fairly far. At that point probably car rental and ticket in the same ballpark.

[Northbound69]

Well to.close out the thread, he's upset but I told him this isn't a pleasurable flight for me, we're operating to his location to do the thing he wants to do, so he could either pay for the rental or rent a car.

Thanks for helping work through the regs on this!

[goldeneagle]

He's definitely slid down my friend ranking this week.

How to tell the difference between friends and acquaintances ?

Moving day.

I've told this to the kids time and again. A couple months ago, son had to move. Once all the stuff was in the new place, he phoned me to say, now he knows who the real friends are....