E2 Loads

[WhiskyTangoFoxtrot]

FO here — anyone else a bit concerned about the passenger loads on the E2? YYZ–LGA has been pretty weak.

[Grey_Wolf]

Not really, Porter has had more profitable routes compared to others. The break even point is what matters to the bean counters. And like in the past, if the route isn't profitable or the agreement(s) in place don't serve their purposes, it gets dropped. IYKYK (North Bay, Pittsburgh, Charleston, Burlington, etc...).

[8895]

FO here — anyone else a bit concerned about the passenger loads on the E2? YYZ–LGA has been pretty weak.

LGA started up right as the tariff stuff started lol considering we are way over exposed to the states compared to AC and WJ I’m sure the timing of that trump stuff caused a pretty big hit for the operation.

I’ve been checking loads ever since the E2 operation started. They’ve gotten better and right now it’s definitely that post holiday shoulder season. If we could get more capacity to sun destinations outside of the US to align more with the demand when it’s cold out I’m sure the loads would be a little more resilient during the winter. We’ve always been pretty domestic heavy too so winter is always way lower than the summer.

[Tbayer2021]

Loads are only part of the picture. You can have full planes and still not be profitable if you're not charging enough. With a private company like Porter, it is impossible to gauge its financial health based on loads since they don't have to publicly disclose any financial metric. Its probably fair to say what gets presented to the pilot group is probably not the negative stuff. I'm not claiming to know Porter's health one way or the other. Simply that loads don't provide a complete picture.

[goingnowherefast]

Slots are important (and expensive) too. Obtaining and keeping presence at an important airport is frequently worth running at a loss for short times. Not many people want to go to LGA in January, so not surprising.

There's also the longer term strategic value. Porter has a codeshare with American Airlines. American uses LGA as a hub. A lot of customers might start connecting through LGA on Porter to the American Airlines network. Also vise versa for American wanting to connect their passengers into Canada. Porter needs to maintain presence at LGA to foster and grow the codeshare opportunity. Run the route at a loss, or low profit for a bit to build the codeshare.

[flyinhigh]

FO here — anyone else a bit concerned about the passenger loads on the E2? YYZ–LGA has been pretty weak.

Whenever I operate the loads are fine. Yes LGA, YOW, and YUL are lower and always have been but the flights west and south are 90% packed. As mentioned we are in the post holiday travel now which is inherently always lower travel demand for all airlines.

[27 Driver]

I have noticed a significant reduction of loads on several of our flights not just LGA. The Caribbean flights I have done loads are very weak, along with YOW, YUL (very inconsistent), SFO, LAX very light as well. My experience with YHM trans boarder and Caribbean also has been very weak loads. I’m worried about the inconsistency of our loads. Western Canada and Florida seem strong. This is not the post Christmas slump many talk about. Our inconsistent loads and the state of the airline email on Monday from our CEO along with the announcement of the closure of the YHZ and YQT bases Wednesday from our COO/VP have me thinking. I have been flying for almost 40 yrs now and have seen similar stories play out with many other Canadian carriers that are no longer with us. I’m at the end of my career so the impact on my life would not be the same as others much younger and those early in there career. I think this deserves serious attention and discussion by our pilot group.

[flieslikeachicken]

FO here — anyone else a bit concerned about the passenger loads on the E2? YYZ–LGA has been pretty weak.

If loads were such an issue, they would likely swap it to the Q. Sometimes it's cheaper to hold a route that is experiencing low loads and keep the customers in Porter seats instead of at the competitors'. The cost of acquiring a customer is more expensive than the cost of keeping a customer.

[cdnavater]

I have noticed a significant reduction of loads on several of our flights not just LGA. The Caribbean flights I have done loads are very weak, along with YOW, YUL (very inconsistent), SFO, LAX very light as well. My experience with YHM trans boarder and Caribbean also has been very weak loads. I’m worried about the inconsistency of our loads. Western Canada and Florida seem strong. This is not the post Christmas slump many talk about. Our inconsistent loads and the state of the airline email on Monday from our CEO along with the announcement of the closure of the YHZ and YQT bases Wednesday from our COO/VP have me thinking. I have been flying for almost 40 yrs now and have seen similar stories play out with many other Canadian carriers that are no longer with us. I’m at the end of my career so the impact on my life would not be the same as others much younger and those early in there career. I think this deserves serious attention and discussion by our pilot group.

I hear you but you need to weigh the news against the fact groups are unionizing at Porter, this is very typical of companies about to negotiate with unions, times are tough blah blah blah.
Seen it my whole life not just in aviation, grew up with union negotiations in my house, Dad was on strike at least three times that I can remember and it was always the same thing. Company saying they are not doing well, after a few weeks on strike and making a deal, all of the sudden the company is making tons of money.

[boeingfixr]

Welcome to the new C3. We are seeing trends in tech ops that are concerning as well (nothing to do with safety/airworthiness to be clear).

[flieslikeachicken]

Welcome to the new C3. We are seeing trends in tech ops that are concerning as well (nothing to do with safety/airworthiness to be clear).

What sort of trends are you referring to?

[Dronepiper]

I have noticed a significant reduction of loads on several of our flights not just LGA. The Caribbean flights I have done loads are very weak, along with YOW, YUL (very inconsistent), SFO, LAX very light as well. My experience with YHM trans boarder and Caribbean also has been very weak loads. I’m worried about the inconsistency of our loads. Western Canada and Florida seem strong. This is not the post Christmas slump many talk about. Our inconsistent loads and the state of the airline email on Monday from our CEO along with the announcement of the closure of the YHZ and YQT bases Wednesday from our COO/VP have me thinking. I have been flying for almost 40 yrs now and have seen similar stories play out with many other Canadian carriers that are no longer with us. I’m at the end of my career so the impact on my life would not be the same as others much younger and those early in there career. I think this deserves serious attention and discussion by our pilot group.

I hear you but you need to weigh the news against the fact groups are unionizing at Porter, this is very typical of companies about to negotiate with unions, times are tough blah blah blah.
Seen it my whole life not just in aviation, grew up with union negotiations in my house, Dad was on strike at least three times that I can remember and it was always the same thing. Company saying they are not doing well, after a few weeks on strike and making a deal, all of the sudden the company is making tons of money.

To be fair, didn't LYNX go bankrupt very shortly after their pilot's decided to unionize with ALPA?

[fixnfly]

Is it true that Porter has issued layoff notices to about 50 employees that are not flight crew? Or does that have to do with the base closures in YHZ and YQT?

[Canoehead]

Not sure the number, but I know of someone who was laid off by PD this past week. Admin role.

[goingnowherefast]

From the people I know at Porter, their rumour mill is saying 100 layoffs from admin and support roles

[Inverted2]

Going to be a rough year for a lot of companies. The economy is getting a lot worse than they’re letting on to.

[Bede]

From the people I know at Porter, their rumour mill is saying 100 layoffs from admin and support roles

At first I heard 200. Then I heard 30. Then I spoke with an PD ALPA guy. He says no one knows the actual number.

[goingnowherefast]

Whatever the actual number, it is a reduction in admin and support staff. That's the opposite of growth.

[cdnavater]

I have noticed a significant reduction of loads on several of our flights not just LGA. The Caribbean flights I have done loads are very weak, along with YOW, YUL (very inconsistent), SFO, LAX very light as well. My experience with YHM trans boarder and Caribbean also has been very weak loads. I’m worried about the inconsistency of our loads. Western Canada and Florida seem strong. This is not the post Christmas slump many talk about. Our inconsistent loads and the state of the airline email on Monday from our CEO along with the announcement of the closure of the YHZ and YQT bases Wednesday from our COO/VP have me thinking. I have been flying for almost 40 yrs now and have seen similar stories play out with many other Canadian carriers that are no longer with us. I’m at the end of my career so the impact on my life would not be the same as others much younger and those early in there career. I think this deserves serious attention and discussion by our pilot group.

I hear you but you need to weigh the news against the fact groups are unionizing at Porter, this is very typical of companies about to negotiate with unions, times are tough blah blah blah.
Seen it my whole life not just in aviation, grew up with union negotiations in my house, Dad was on strike at least three times that I can remember and it was always the same thing. Company saying they are not doing well, after a few weeks on strike and making a deal, all of the sudden the company is making tons of money.

To be fair, didn't LYNX go bankrupt very shortly after their pilot's decided to unionize with ALPA?

In retrospect it does seem a worse than negotiating tactics, base closures are a pretty big deal and probably the bulk of the layoffs

[accountant]

The should be adding more routes out west for utilization. Winnipeg to YYC and YEG could use some competition. Same to YVR.

[boeingfixr]

Welcome to the new C3. We are seeing trends in tech ops that are concerning as well (nothing to do with safety/airworthiness to be clear).

What sort of trends are you referring to?

Lots of serviceable parked aircraft.

[cjp]

I hear you but you need to weigh the news against the fact groups are unionizing at Porter, this is very typical of companies about to negotiate with unions, times are tough blah blah blah.
Seen it my whole life not just in aviation, grew up with union negotiations in my house, Dad was on strike at least three times that I can remember and it was always the same thing. Company saying they are not doing well, after a few weeks on strike and making a deal, all of the sudden the company is making tons of money.

To be fair, didn't LYNX go bankrupt very shortly after their pilot's decided to unionize with ALPA?

In retrospect it does seem a worse than negotiating tactics, base closures are a pretty big deal and probably the bulk of the layoffs

Base closures did not involve any flight crew layoffs. Options were provided through a letter to affected crews on moving bases, or accepting voluntary layoff/retirement. Hiring on the flight crew side (potentially cabin crew) is paused for the time being. No route reductions are announced. Essentially as you were for everyone on the line.

Layoffs that took place were background operational staff and managers.

[goingnowherefast]

To be fair, didn't LYNX go bankrupt very shortly after their pilot's decided to unionize with ALPA?

In retrospect it does seem a worse than negotiating tactics, base closures are a pretty big deal and probably the bulk of the layoffs

Base closures did not involve any flight crew layoffs. Options were provided through a letter to affected crews on moving bases, or accepting voluntary layoff/retirement. Hiring on the flight crew side (potentially cabin crew) is paused for the time being. No route reductions are announced. Essentially as you were for everyone on the line.

Layoffs that took place were background operational staff and managers.

Halifax and Thunder Bay are full of local operators. Does Porter really, honestly expect everyone to commute or move? Or are they expecting high attrition to reduce pilot staffing levels without using the word "layoff".

[cjp]

In retrospect it does seem a worse than negotiating tactics, base closures are a pretty big deal and probably the bulk of the layoffs

Base closures did not involve any flight crew layoffs. Options were provided through a letter to affected crews on moving bases, or accepting voluntary layoff/retirement. Hiring on the flight crew side (potentially cabin crew) is paused for the time being. No route reductions are announced. Essentially as you were for everyone on the line.

Layoffs that took place were background operational staff and managers.

Halifax and Thunder Bay are full of local operators. Does Porter really, honestly expect everyone to commute or move? Or are they expecting high attrition to reduce pilot staffing levels without using the word "layoff".

I think they are expecting people to make a choice. It's incredibly ill timed, and inconvenient for the affected crews. Neither base is easy to commute from, and definitely not to the island, as this only affects Dash 8 crews..If I were in their shoes, I would absolutely be reconsidering continuing with Porter and finding something closer to home.

That said, they do have the option and the jet operates through both former bases.

Looking at it through a magnifying lens; is this the executives punishing crews for voting in ALPA? Possibly.

My take is that this is part of a massive cost cutting measure. To what end, I'm not sure. But we have been running less efficient than desired for a while since bringing on the E2. Bases are expensive to maintain, as you have to route flying through them, enough to accomodate the crews allotted.

Food for thought.

[flieslikeachicken]

Halifax and Thunder Bay are full of local operators. Does Porter really, honestly expect everyone to commute or move? Or are they expecting high attrition to reduce pilot staffing levels without using the word "layoff".

YQT has 3-5 Q400 departures a day split between it's two main bases, Toronto and Ottawa. They do no other flying and it made no sense to keep it open.

Halifax did seem to make some sense as a base, but when the only destination that cannot easily be covered by a YTZ or YOW crew is YYT, it's also clear that closing that base makes sense.