Trump wants to buy Spirit

[cdnavater]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics ... s-bailout/
“President Donald Trump’s desire to “just buy” bankrupt Spirit Airlines has spurred division among his advisers and drawn backlash from members of his party who argue that Republicans would be reversing their long-standing opposition to government ownership of corporations.
The administration has been floating a $500 million rescue plan that could give the government a hefty ownership stake in the budget airline, which has declared bankruptcy twice since 2024. Spirit announced in March it was set to emerge from bankruptcy this summer, but jet fuel prices have roughly doubled since Trump and Israel launched a war with Iran, exacerbating the company’s long-standing financial trouble”

This part is important and has ramifications to our airlines!

“Spirit’s competitors, arguing that they are also suffering from economic pressures, have put forth their own proposal that would bail out the entire budget airline industry. The proposal, reviewed by The Washington Post, would subsidize jet fuel to the tune of $2.5 billion and cut fees and taxes to relieve the economic pressure created by the war”

There is zero chance our government will subsidize our airlines to that extant, if at all, this would be a huge competitive disadvantage to us!

[‘Bob’]

Didn’t Trump bankrupt his own airline under pretty much the same economic climate he’s currently creating. ?

[NovaBoy]

Yes Trump Airlines lasted 1 year

[Old fella]

Didn’t Trump bankrupt his own airline under pretty much the same economic climate he’s currently creating. ?

As per his usual, he no doubt stiffed people during that bankruptcy.

[lostav8r]

Didn’t Trump bankrupt his own airline under pretty much the same economic climate he’s currently creating. ?

How could that be? He's a financial genius lmfao

[khedrei]

Yes Trump Airlines lasted 1 year

Not true.

A quick read shows it lasted about 3 years and the initial bankruptcy wasn't his. Eastern Airlines, of which he was a subsidiary, actually declared bankruptcy shortly after the acquisition and it had nothing to do with him.

It had actually done quite well at first. Later, with the Gulf War, oil prices doubling, and an economic recession, the airline failed in 1992. Other similar "shuttle" airlines also went under around this time and got bought up by Delta, etc. He personally guaranteed some of the debt.

This is the problem with the TDS people. There are enough real problems with the guy that you can scream from the rooftops. Yet you choose to mislead people or tell half truths about these kinds of things just because you hate him so much. Thats why he won again.

[‘Bob’]

Almost none of what you said is true.

Eastern Airlines Shuttle was a profitable sector of Eastern Airlines and in line with owner Frank Lorenzo’s asset-stripping of EAL it was sold separately to Trump three years before Eastern Airlines bankruptcy.

Trump ran it out of cash in a mere 18 months trying to make it a luxury service (GTE Airphones, lavish appointments, luxury services) and thus… through only his poor decisions… it was highly vulnerable to high energy prices—if indeed it was even profitable to begin with.

Eastern proper and Pan Am (the owner of Pan Am Shuttle that also ceased operations) went bankrupt for different reasons extending back decades.

Eastern from the aforementioned asset stripping as well as high legacy debt loads (L-1011, A300s, 757s) and union troubles.. and Pan Am due to its inability to compete internationally against subsided foreign flag carriers, and American domestic carriers, and internationally where it used to enjoy a monopoly and had gradually been selling off its own assets for years. Terrorism (Lockerbie) also made passengers avoid it.

And this is nothing about TDS. It’s about a known conman who not only bankrupted that airline but nearly half a dozen other businesses (including a casino) but who’s inheritance hasn’t even grown as much as someone who bought indexed mutual funds from a bank.

And everyone knew what Iran was going to do if he attacked them. They hold all the cards and all they have to do is wait for the US to collapse in the same type of energy driven recession that killed his airline… all of his own making because he’s too stupid.

Watching him try to “deal” with Iran is like watching an 8 year old try and negotiate with his parents. Why would he beg NATO to help open the strait then block it himself. He has no idea what he’s doing.

His only choices are a humiliating retreat or decades long quagmire. You’d better hope it’s the former.

[khedrei]

Almost none of what you said is true.

Eastern Airlines Shuttle was a profitable sector of Eastern Airlines and in line with owner Frank Lorenzo’s asset-stripping of EAL it was sold separately to Trump three years before Eastern Airlines bankruptcy.

Trump ran it out of cash in a mere 18 months trying to make it a luxury service (GTE Airphones, lavish appointments, luxury services) and thus… through only his poor decisions… it was highly vulnerable to high energy prices—if indeed it was even profitable to begin with.

Eastern proper and Pan Am (the owner of Pan Am Shuttle that also ceased operations) went bankrupt for different reasons extending back decades.

Eastern from the aforementioned asset stripping as well as high legacy debt loads (L-1011, A300s, 757s) and union troubles.. and Pan Am due to its inability to compete internationally against subsided foreign flag carriers, and American domestic carriers, and internationally where it used to enjoy a monopoly and had gradually been selling off its own assets for years. Terrorism (Lockerbie) also made passengers avoid it.

And this is nothing about TDS. It’s about a known conman who not only bankrupted that airline but nearly half a dozen other businesses (including a casino) but who’s inheritance hasn’t even grown as much as someone who bought indexed mutual funds from a bank.

And everyone knew what Iran was going to do if he attacked them. They hold all the cards and all they have to do is wait for the US to collapse in the same type of energy driven recession that killed his airline… all of his own making because he’s too stupid.

Watching him try to “deal” with Iran is like watching an 8 year old try and negotiate with his parents. Why would he beg NATO to help open the strait then block it himself. He has no idea what he’s doing.

His only choices are a humiliating retreat or decades long quagmire. You’d better hope it’s the former.

Right from Wikipedia.

After reaching an agreement with Trump in October 1988, Eastern filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection. Many passengers switched to the competing Pan Am Shuttle, and the previously profitable Eastern Shuttle began losing money. Trump attempted to use the situation to negotiate a lower price and to acquire additional aircraft from Eastern. America West Airlines submitted a more attractive competing offer on May 10, but failed as its financing was not in place. Trump's offer was approved by the bankruptcy court in May 1989.[7] In June 1989 the deal was completed, financed through a loan from a syndicate of banks led by Citibank.[8]

The new Trump Shuttle operation launched on June 8, 1989, and by the end of August had returned to a strong market share of 40–50%.

Right after they agreed to the deal, Eastern filed for chapter 11. It also says that he returned a strong market share of 40-50% in 3 months.

It goes on to say he tried to turn it into a luxury airline. And its also true that others went under due to oil prices and a recession.

Is it possible Wikipedia is completely fabricating everything on the page? Perhaps. But I wouldnt bet on it.

Is it more likely that you are so full of it that its starting to come out your ears? And that pretty much everything i said was true? Id bet on that.

You still haven't answered my question about how we would make out if America went away? About who you would rather have the most influence in the world if they didnt. Im genuinely curious what answer you have.

Its absolutely about TDS. Thats why he won. Too many Bobs out there focusing on trying to make him look bad for things he didnt do instead of just pointing out his obvious flaws. There are plenty. You dont need to make new ones up.

[khedrei]

So yes, it appears as though the filed for bankruptcy in 88. He acquired in 89. It went under in 92. No where did it say anything about them filing for bankruptcy in 86 which would be the 3 years before trump quired it like you claim it was. Not sure how you made up your numbers. But making up stuff is what your good at.

[Eric Janson]

Looks like Spirit is bankrupt.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cqxlnrqjvzyo

More bankruptcies to come - jmho.

[JungleRiot]

Looks like Spirit is bankrupt.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cqxlnrqjvzyo

More bankruptcies to come - jmho.

RIP the waffle house of the sky

[Old fella]

Looks like Spirit is bankrupt.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cqxlnrqjvzyo

More bankruptcies to come - jmho.

Hopefully not, however I suspect you may be correct.Especially the ULCC airline model who are barely treading water in the pool of insolvency, unfortunately some will undoubtedly sink. Regardless of one’s views, it is sad to hear and see the unemployment ranks get topped up with those on the outside looking in. Here’s wishing those employees at Spirit land on their feet somewhere.

[Eric Janson]

RIP the waffle house of the sky

From the Babylon Bee:-

https://babylonbee.com/news/passengers- ... -out-brawl

Having been through 2 Airline bankruptcies - I wouldn't wish it on anyone.

One thing I have learned is to keep a sense of perspective. It's a job - not the end of the World.

[DanWEC]

It's just so unbelievable frustrating, and ludicrous, and STUPID, that as airline pilots, our salaries are tied exclusively to the tenure we give to a company, who could fold at any time and not reciprocate anything.
A 25 year captain at Spirit, with a lifetime of experience flying MD's, Airbus, etc , will now start as a year 1 FO at another airline and never touch their previous salary before retirement despite being vastly more experienced than the capt they'll be sitting beside. Plenty of guys are going to lose their houses, and probably communities as they have to look at any DEC opportunities around the world just to pay the bills and get paid what they're worth.

We're the only professional industry that allows and promotes this. It's utterly insane. Ask a lawyer or engineer with 20 years of experience what they do if they lose their job.....

[altiplano]

Our salaries are tied to the position. The system is what it is because it's the most fair.

The younger Legacy Captain that 25 year Spirit Captain is going to sit next to at the Legacy that hires him is qualified for his position. Why do you minimize him?

That Spirit Captain also could have joined that same Legacy himself 12 years earlier, but he took the upgrade at Spirit instead.

[DanWEC]

I don't necessarily agree. Plus, our current system in Canada/North America is much more YOS and left seat weighted than other countries.
This means that our worth is more rewarded by loyalty rather than experience. Given a 25 year capt could be forced to make a lateral move to a similar employer at any time, and go down to right seat year 1 salary- that's essentially all any pilot is worth in an open market. $80k a year, no more, regardless of experience.
Disregarding DEC positions or going corporate etc, in the airline world, our only personal value lies in YOS with a company. It's a bizarre notion that doesn't apply to any other professional field.

[Eric Janson]

It's just so unbelievable frustrating, and ludicrous, and STUPID, that as airline pilots, our salaries are tied exclusively to the tenure we give to a company, who could fold at any time and not reciprocate anything.
A 25 year captain at Spirit, with a lifetime of experience flying MD's, Airbus, etc , will now start as a year 1 FO at another airline and never touch their previous salary before retirement despite being vastly more experienced than the capt they'll be sitting beside. Plenty of guys are going to lose their houses, and probably communities as they have to look at any DEC opportunities around the world just to pay the bills and get paid what they're worth.

We're the only professional industry that allows and promotes this. It's utterly insane. Ask a lawyer or engineer with 20 years of experience what they do if they lose their job.....

The real issue is with the pensions. In N America these are gone when the Airline folds. I know someone who was working at US Air and was just about to retire. He lost everything. I'm guessing things work the same in Canada.

In Europe pension money has to be held separately - the only one with access is the beneficiary.

Surprised this isn't the first issue in any negotiation. Unfortunately most people take no interest in this. Huge mistake. Jmho.

It's not correct that you have to start elsewhere as FO - there are options as DEC. That's an individual choice.

My last 4 jobs have been as DEC - I'm not interested in being FO.

If losing a job = losing your house then something is very wrong financially imho.

With some exceptions Pilots are the worst at financial management/investing.

[altiplano]

I don't necessarily agree. Plus, our current system in Canada/North America is much more YOS and left seat weighted than other countries.
This means that our worth is more rewarded by loyalty rather than experience. Given a 25 year capt could be forced to make a lateral move to a similar employer at any time, and go down to right seat year 1 salary- that's essentially all any pilot is worth in an open market. $80k a year, no more, regardless of experience.
Disregarding DEC positions or going corporate etc, in the airline world, our only personal value lies in YOS with a company. It's a bizarre notion that doesn't apply to any other professional field.

Why should that 25 year guy move into a highest paying position at a new airline when there are guys that are already there waiting and capable for their turn to do the job? It restricts the people already there.

Companies that have to pay for people to come into top DEC positions are doing it only because they need to. They don't have people already with the qualifications or experience. Why is that? With the exception of a start up or airline undergoing significant new growth, it's probably not a desirable place long term. Too low pay, undesirable conditions, location undesirable, uncertain future, whatever.

Seniority is not perfect, but it's the fairest system there is because it's clearly defined and puts us all on a level plane. The other ways have already been tried and result in a race to the bottom as guys under cut one another and the companies happily oblige it.

[Bede]

Our salaries are tied to the position. The system is what it is because it's the most fair.

The younger Legacy Captain that 25 year Spirit Captain is going to sit next to at the Legacy that hires him is qualified for his position. Why do you minimize him?

That Spirit Captain also could have joined that same Legacy himself 12 years earlier, but he took the upgrade at Spirit instead.

I disagree. I'm not against the seniority system, but of all ways to administer such a system, pilots do it the worst.

My daughter is a nurse. Her seniority (in Ontario) is based on how many hours she has worked since she graduated.

My son in law is a union boiler maker. His seniority is based on when he joined the union. Whenever there is an opening anywhere (equivalent to an equipment bid in our field), anyone in the union can bid on it and the positions get awarded to the most senior guy.

The advantage is that companies can't play off the fact that we're chained to our employers.

[altiplano]

It's just so unbelievable frustrating, and ludicrous, and STUPID, that as airline pilots, our salaries are tied exclusively to the tenure we give to a company, who could fold at any time and not reciprocate anything.
A 25 year captain at Spirit, with a lifetime of experience flying MD's, Airbus, etc , will now start as a year 1 FO at another airline and never touch their previous salary before retirement despite being vastly more experienced than the capt they'll be sitting beside. Plenty of guys are going to lose their houses, and probably communities as they have to look at any DEC opportunities around the world just to pay the bills and get paid what they're worth.

We're the only professional industry that allows and promotes this. It's utterly insane. Ask a lawyer or engineer with 20 years of experience what they do if they lose their job.....

The real issue is with the pensions. In N America these are gone when the Airline folds. I know someone who was working at US Air and was just about to retire. He lost everything. I'm guessing things work the same in Canada.

In Europe pension money has to be held separately - the only one with access is the beneficiary.

Surprised this isn't the first issue in any negotiation. Unfortunately most people take no interest in this. Huge mistake. Jmho.

It's not correct that you have to start elsewhere as FO - there are options as DEC. That's an individual choice.

My last 4 jobs have been as DEC - I'm not interested in being FO.

If losing a job = losing your house then something is very wrong financially imho.

With some exceptions Pilots are the worst at financial management/investing.

I can only speak of AC, but with the DB, the registered portion has to remain actuarially solvent or the company has to top it up. The supplemental part above RPP limits is wholly paid from general revenue and is at risk were there to be a shutdown, although there is some insurance built in to the individual accounts to cover a part of it. Another risk is that the company does manage the registered plan, it is currently in multi-billion dollar surplus, but there is the potential for bad faith.

With the TB pension plan on the other hand, it is completely separate from the company. The company sends their cheque along with your contribution every month and it's wholly out of their hands and managed by the beneficiary appointed trustees. That's the greatest thing about that plan, fully out of company hands no matter what happens.

[altiplano]

I disagree. I'm not against the seniority system, but of all ways to administer such a system, pilots do it the worst.

My daughter is a nurse. Her seniority (in Ontario) is based on how many hours she has worked since she graduated.

My son in law is a union boiler maker. His seniority is based on when he joined the union. Whenever there is an opening anywhere (equivalent to an equipment bid in our field), anyone in the union can bid on it and the positions get awarded to the most senior guy.

The advantage is that companies can't play off the fact that we're chained to our employers.

You want to compare yourself to nurses and boilermakers?

Your daughter isn't entitled to any position in the system though. She still needs to be hired by individual managers if she changes positions irrespective of any "seniority" and her seniority doesn't exactly carry much benefit the way a pilot would imagine. A junior nurse can get a position ahead of her.

I can't speak to boilermakers, but it sounds similar to welders, this type system allows full flexibility to the employer, and you get cut as fast as your job is done.

Is that what we would want? Layoffs every shoulder season or slow down of all the junior guys. Guys unable to piece together full time work through the start of their career.

Never mind the complete unsuitability of it in this profession, varied SOP, numerous types, domiciles.

Just like a welder has to get his ticket for various process types. Would we have to buy our ratings to be eligible to bid different jobs? Stay current on the 320 in case AC calls, and the 737 in case WJ calls, and the 767 in case CJ calls, and the EMJ in case PD, calls and the RJ in case JZ calls, and the 330 in case TS calls... and and and....

We all make decisions, stability, pay, lifestyle... there are uos and downs with each. Maybe we make sacrifices along the way, maybe we avoid them. Maybe we accept delayed gratification, maybe we don't.

We are a unique profession, I want to see it paid better bottom to top at every property. But the general system as it exists involves some fate that's out of our control, but the system protects us from bad faith companies pulling shenanigans and ultimately each other.

[digits_]

I disagree. I'm not against the seniority system, but of all ways to administer such a system, pilots do it the worst.

My daughter is a nurse. Her seniority (in Ontario) is based on how many hours she has worked since she graduated.

My son in law is a union boiler maker. His seniority is based on when he joined the union. Whenever there is an opening anywhere (equivalent to an equipment bid in our field), anyone in the union can bid on it and the positions get awarded to the most senior guy.

The advantage is that companies can't play off the fact that we're chained to our employers.

You want to compare yourself to nurses and boilermakers?

Your daughter isn't entitled to any position in the system though. She still needs to be hired by individual managers if she changes positions irrespective of any "seniority" and her seniority doesn't exactly carry much benefit the way a pilot would imagine. A junior nurse can get a position ahead of her.

I can't speak to boilermakers, but it sounds similar to welders, this type system allows full flexibility to the employer, and you get cut as fast as your job is done.

Is that what we would want? Layoffs every shoulder season or slow down of all the junior guys. Guys unable to piece together full time work through the start of their career.

Never mind the complete unsuitability of it in this profession, varied SOP, numerous types, domiciles.

Just like a welder has to get his ticket for various process types. Would we have to buy our ratings to be eligible to bid different jobs? Stay current on the 320 in case AC calls, and the 737 in case WJ calls, and the 767 in case CJ calls, and the EMJ in case PD, calls and the RJ in case JZ calls, and the 330 in case TS calls... and and and....

We all make decisions, stability, pay, lifestyle... there are uos and downs with each. Maybe we make sacrifices along the way, maybe we avoid them. Maybe we accept delayed gratification, maybe we don't.

We are a unique profession, I want to see it paid better bottom to top at every property. But the general system as it exists involves some fate that's out of our control, but the system protects us from bad faith companies pulling shenanigans and ultimately each other.

You don't have to make it so complicated. It should be easy enough to come up with a certain formula based on different types of flying that would give you an 'experience number' for a specific operator that takes into account all your years of flying. Sort of a compressed resume. This could then be used as a seniority number within the company.

Eg been flying 737 for 25 years? You'll have more seniority than an FO that has been on type for 5 years. But if you decide to go fly skydivers you'll be bottom of the list at that company, and vice versa. It wouldn't change anything else, just the assigned seniority number upon hiring. Very easy to combine it with a no bump policy either.

[altiplano]

And you say my system is difficult...

[goldeneagle]

Your daughter isn't entitled to any position in the system though. She still needs to be hired by individual managers if she changes positions irrespective of any "seniority" and her seniority doesn't exactly carry much benefit the way a pilot would imagine. A junior nurse can get a position ahead of her.

That's not how it works for my daughter, also a nurse. When she changed employers, she took her 6 years of seniority, and slotted in at that level with the new employer. When she changed employers again, she took 10 years of seniority along, slotted in at the new place with 10 years of seniority and at year 10 on the pay grid.

And yes, I say 'years', but in fact the nurses seniority is measured by 'hours worked', makes it fair for the part time vs full time employees. Somebody on the casual list for 10 years may well have less seniority than somebody that has been working a full time line for 4 or 5 years.

What the nurses negotiated was the equivalent of one leaving AC after 15 years, going to WJ, and slotting into the WJ list at that 15 year level. If pilots had negotiated something like that a long time ago, then the airlines would have to compete for staff, rather than the current system in place where once you get that precious seniority number you end up married to the company, for better or for worse.

[altiplano]

It's not that simple.

And it doesn't port between bargaining units, provinces, etc.

Go be a nurse.