PPC v. Multi IFR

goldeneagle · Post by **goldeneagle** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 9:18 pm

If you are going to come trolling on the 'buy a ppc' subject, you really should understand what PPC is, who issues it, and the pre-req's to actually having it issued. The bottom line, you cant just 'do the ifr renewal' on a navajo, and end up with a ppc, it doesn't work that way. First, you must be working for an operator that actually has the navajo listed on the oc, and then you have to go thru the entire in house training program, which typically includes a minimum of 4 hours flying, and about 26 hours of classroom stuff, over half of which is company specific. When you've done all that, you can do a ride with a company check pilot, or a transport inspector (business and commercial aviation side), and end up with a PPC card, quite likely renewing the ifr at the same time, because the instrument ride is a subset of the initial ppc. And, if you are actually fully expired (need to re-write), neither of these folks can/will do the ride, they can do renewals, not initials.

What you cannot do, is just saunter up so any old flying school, rent a navajo, and 'get a ppc'. If you go thru said flying school, you will do the ifr ride with either a dfte or an inspector from transport (regulations side), neither of whom is empowered to issue the ppc, both of whom can issue the initial ifr.

And for what it's worth, if you are actually expired to the verge of needing a re-write, not even the sleasiest of pay your own training operators is going to touch you anyways. They will all tell you to come back when the ifr is valid, and then they'll happily relieve you of anywhere from 8 to 12 grand for some 'training'. None of them will consider a candidate that doesn't have a valid instrument rating. The rare exception would be a school that actually has a charter division too, and a navajo available thru that division. I guess if you find one of those, it's possible to swing just about any kind of 'deal'.

Nice troll, but, this subject gets irritating as all hell when folks are trolling in this water and they dont even have a clue as to what it is they are trolling about. Next time, do a little homework first, at least try make it sound like you know what the ppc stuff is all about.

wallypilot · Post by **wallypilot** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 10:04 pm

Take it easy goldencanary.....if it was a troll it would probably be some one liner like....."my daddy just gave me 30K....do you know where I can get a 737NG type rating?"

the original poster has a fair question....goldensparrow, there was a time when you didn't know how this industry worked either. I wouldn't know how the whole PPC thing works either unless I had been through it.

JBI....don't bother "renting" a navajo. get your IFR renewed on something small and easy so you can focus on the IFR, not having to learn a more complex airplane.

This whole PPC thing should be explained as part of commercial ground school so that new pilots understand it better. for example, flying cargo in a caravan IFR for a 703 operation, you don't even need to do an IFR PPC. Same with navajo. You have to have a valid IR, but you only need the 3 hrs flight training, plus a ground school for the airplane.

For the newbies, as has been said before, also note that a PPC is different from a Type Rating. A PPC is a proficiency check that you do at regular intervals depending on the operation and the type and size of airplane. It is specific to the operation you are working at and includes a check of your knowledge of company procedures, policies and authorizations.

A type rating is the aircraft specific training you do for the airplane and in Canada it's only required for aircraft great than 12500lbs and a few other specific aircraft types. Just because you go to a flight safety kind of program doesn't mean you are getting a type rating.

Nark · Post by **Nark** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 12:12 am

Golden Eagle,

I can personally vouch for JBI, and guarantee you that he is not trolling or baiting you.

Keep in mind that there are a few of us who frequent the board who used fly, but are now pursuing other ventures.

My IFR has also lapsed, but killing two birds with one stone is never a bad idea.

I knew a friend who did that and came to our company because he had a valid PPC. I don’t know if its still dog eat dog, or it has settled down since I was in Canada, but it seems like a great idea.

Cheers

justplanecrazy · Post by **justplanecrazy** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 10:59 am

If it doesn't cost a whole lot more than doing the test and re-ride through the school, go for the PPC. You'll end up learning a lot more and it'll be a good look into the future, just don't expect a job as soon as you finish it.

I was thinking about doing the same thing and then offering to work for free in a single crew certified plane. I'd still be able to go flying for free and the company would have 2 crew for the price of 1. I'm not taking anyone's job away and have no interest in getting back into the industry, just want to be able to do some real world flying for free and keep my ratings and knowledge valid. Sure beats having to try and remember what you should be doing when you can afford to rent that plane for a few hours and end up in the muck for the first time in 6 months.

JBI · Post by **JBI** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 1:37 pm

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 2:35 pm

This PPC thing puzzels me.

Suppose a pilot has 1000 hours on a C421 how come he /she needs 4 hours training on a Navajo?

Hell I got my multi engine rating with three hours on a C310 and then had to switch to a Aztec for two hours because the 310 went mechanical. So if five hours total on two different airplanes was enough then to pass a check ride how come everyone needs 4 hours training just to check out on a different twin of the same catagory?

Is it possible that they did not know anything about training in those days and we were just given the rating without having to demonstrate we could actually fly the things?

Cat

Lurch · Post by **Lurch** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 2:40 pm

Cat Driver wrote:This PPC thing puzzels me.

Suppose a pilot has 1000 hours on a C421 how come he /she needs 4 hours training on a Navajo?

Hell I got my multi engine rating with three hours on a C310 and then had to switch to a Aztec for two hours because the 310 went mechanical. So if five hours total on two different airplanes was enough then to pass a check ride how come everyone needs 4 hours training just to check out on a different twin of the same catagory?

Is it possible that they did not know anything about training in those days and we were just given the rating without having to demonstrate we could actually fly the things?

Cat

Insurance

I have had a check-outs from pilots with less hours/experiance then myself and have spent the COT flight paying to instruct the instructor who was doing my check-out.

bob sacamano · Post by **bob sacamano** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 2:57 pm

Cat Driver wrote:This PPC thing puzzels me.

Suppose a pilot has 1000 hours on a C421 how come he /she needs 4 hours training on a Navajo?

Hell I got my multi engine rating with three hours on a C310 and then had to switch to a Aztec for two hours because the 310 went mechanical. So if five hours total on two different airplanes was enough then to pass a check ride how come everyone needs 4 hours training just to check out on a different twin of the same catagory?

Is it possible that they did not know anything about training in those days and we were just given the rating without having to demonstrate we could actually fly the things?

Cat

The PPC is not only type specific, but also an IFR ride.

I believe your multi-engine rating was meant as an intro to teach you about the wonderful world of multi-engine flying.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 3:16 pm

Is there no VFR PPC on a twin?

Even if the ride includes the IFR check thrown in why in hell would any working pilot flying IFR need four hours recurrent training?

I still am puzzled by all this.

bob sacamano · Post by **bob sacamano** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 3:29 pm

There are many different types of PPC's. Single pilot, two crew, IFR, VFR maybe, I didn't brainstorm these ideas.

I commented on the difference between a multi-engine rating and a IFR PPC ride.

You know more than us, that there are many unanswered questions when it comes to these regulations.

Do you really care at this point to find out why it is as such?

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 3:32 pm

" Do you really care at this point to find out why it is as such? "

Well right now it does not affect me personally.

Just wondering if those affected by these rules care.

bob sacamano · Post by **bob sacamano** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 5:03 pm

I have to go through these rules like many on this site.

Sure I care.

I care to pass them so I can do my job and bring home the bacon.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 5:22 pm

In otherwords you are O.K. with being treated like you are incapable of flying to a high standard of skill without being subjected to rules aimed at the marginally skilled?

You like a one size fits all approach huh?

Look at it from this angle, for every hour of training a company saves on their pilots that will be about $500.00 dollars they could have paid the pilot.

Any pilot who is flying a simple basic twin engine airplane for a living that requires that much dual to be competent is in the wrong business in my opinion.

I hope you enjoy being treated like a inexperienced shaky ability pilot Bob.

bob sacamano · Post by **bob sacamano** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 6:45 pm

Woah there Cat.

No need to take things to a personal level.

I never said it's ok.

Many things in this world are in place for the wrong reasons.

Why do freshly minted pilots with minimal experience teach others how to fly?

Why does our tax money go where it does?

This is how our business is regulated, I can't go on changing all the rules. What I know is that to do this job, I need to jump through these hoops. I'd rather that the regulations made more sense, and that the money that is being spent on them, would actually be spent on something more meaningful and useful.

And let's be serious, you think if the company saved that $500, they would actually give it to the pilots? Therefore in this retarted system of regulations that we have, I'd rather fly those hours then have the owners pocket the money.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 6:51 pm

Well at least we agree the industry is severly fuc.ed up with idiotic rules made by paper pushers.

Thankfully I missed all that crap as I went overseas the year CAR's was introduced...the most idiotic written mishmash of rules ever to be written.