Well I'll open a new can of worms...
Does anyone else have an issue with pilots speaking French over the radio.
First, I am fully bi-lingual. From kindergarten I was in a French Immersion school - though it's been many years since I've spoken the language regularly.
I enjoy our bi-lingual country, I enjoy the Quebec culture, and I enjoy the uniqueness it gives our country.
Where I draw the line is when it comes to safety. Although I comprehend French, I don't necessarily understand "technical" French - or that used by pilots on the radio.
I'll never understand why TC has allowed this. I talk to pilots who fly in Poland, Yugoslavia, and Serbia where the only language allowed in the air is English.
Bottom line is that having two languages compromises safety. Take situational awareness and throw it right out the window.
French vs English
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flyincanuck
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I work with a bunch of francophones. They all speak english at work. No problem.
They speak french to each other, then when an english speaker enters the room, they switch over to english. Even if they're not talking to the anglophone. It's a nice gesture, and I appreciate it. Of course they're fully bilingual, so they can do this.
As far as radio talk, I can see how this could be unsafe, but has there ever been an accident because of it? I dunno.
Personally, I think it's reasonable for them to speak french in primarily french areas.
But I'm pretty laid back, and the only thing that pisses me off in this world is bad government- and even then only after beers.
-istp
They speak french to each other, then when an english speaker enters the room, they switch over to english. Even if they're not talking to the anglophone. It's a nice gesture, and I appreciate it. Of course they're fully bilingual, so they can do this.
As far as radio talk, I can see how this could be unsafe, but has there ever been an accident because of it? I dunno.
Personally, I think it's reasonable for them to speak french in primarily french areas.
But I'm pretty laid back, and the only thing that pisses me off in this world is bad government- and even then only after beers.
-istp
Risk of Collision between2.5 Language of Communications
When the relieving controller cleared, in French, ANU403 to land on runway 25, the crew of ACA330, on the runway, did not appreciate the impending unsafe condition. The capability of both flight crews to understand the clearance would have provided an additional defence mechanism by which the controller error could have been detected.
Ten seconds after ANU403 was cleared to land, the airport controller asked ACA330 to confirm that they were ready, to which ACA330 replied "Yeah, Air Canada three-thirty is in position, ready to go, 25." The controller told ACA330 that there was an aircraft two miles out on final and they would go after he was down. Neither of the ANU flight crew remembered hearing the last exchange between the controller and ACA330, 40 seconds before the risk of collision occurred; ANU403 had already been cleared to land. It is possible that the flight crew of ANU403 were concentrating on their final approach and on the acquisition of the runway environment at the time to the point where they did not hear the transmission, particularly because it was not in the language they had been using with ATC.
There were exchanges, in French, between ATC and ANU403 that referred to their landing on runway 25. These exchanges, if understood by the Air Canada flight crew, would have provided an opportunity to avoid the risk of collision. Canada opted for the two-language operation at many of its ATC units to avoid the risks of mis-communication associated with crews having to operate in their second language. That leaves the alternate risk of some important information not being understood because it is in the other language. These risks were identified and offset by special procedures such as the highlighting of the relevant controller's "strips". During the TSB survey of two years of operations of the three major ATS units in Québec, nothing was found to indicate that bilingual air traffic control is a factor in air proximity events. There was nothing to indicate that the bilingual service problem in this event was the result of a systemic deficiency.
Avionair Inc.
Swearingen Aviation Metro II C-GBXX and
Air Canada
Canadair Ltd. CL-600 Regional Jet C-FSKI
Ottawa/MacDonald-Cartier International Airport
12 March 1997
Report Number A97H0002
That IS a nice gesture, but not all too common. RARE in my experiences. I too agree that a bilingual airport causes more doorways to open for unsafe situations. HOLES IN THE SWISS CHEESE if you will. Just look at the report that CD provided. That is a perfect example of not allowing a pilot, french of english, to maintain situational awareness.istp wrote:They speak french to each other, then when an english speaker enters the room, they switch over to english. Even if they're not talking to the anglophone. It's a nice gesture, and I appreciate it. Of course they're fully bilingual, so they can do this.
If riding in a plane is FLYING. Then Riding in a boat is SWIMMING!
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Cat Driver
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Speaking of bilingualism.
I wonder if the controllers in Paris France would provide Quebec French if asked?
I wonder if the controllers in Paris France would provide Quebec French if asked?
Last edited by Cat Driver on Fri Oct 20, 2006 4:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
En Francais si vous plaitZatopec wrote:This will never stop! I can't believe we are going at it again. Amazing!
"FLY THE AIRPLANE"!
http://www.youtube.com/hazatude
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I have no doubt that in controlled airspace when both Controllers and Pilots can speak french to each other, and Controllers and Pilots can speak English to each other, the problems would be minimal at best. But what happens when two French speaking pilot's, speak to each other in French giving positon reports on 126.7 to each other that rest of us can't understand. This of course occuring in an area that is not just predominantly, but exclusively English speaking as most areas of uncontrolled airspace are in Western Canada. Or perhaps a French speaking pilot that cannot understand position reports or traffic information given on 126.7 or by a mandatory frequency, thus causing traffic conflicts. Or a French speaking pilot not even making traffic reports because he or she does not speak english well enough for them to make sense, or on the other side of the coin making traffic reports in English that no one can understand and thus causing traffic conflicts. If I sound a little prejudice in this string, it stems from the fact that all of these situations I have just explained, happened while I sat in the same cockpit as 4 different French pilots. I was actually in the plane when Winnipeg Center told the guy next to me to "Stop talking and have the other pilot in the aircraft speak on the radio," and have Edmonton Radio ask the French pilot: "Is there another pilot on board who can speak english" Now please tell me if any of this does not sound like it would represent safety problems. It only aggravates the situation when said pilots believe that it is their legal right to speak French on the radio anywhere in Canada to anyone, including other pilots and controllers, and not understanding that the bill only provided for French to be spoken at the three airports out east. As I said before, in controlled airspace I can see it working however that should not mean that because you can speak French at those airports you do not have to have a working, and technical knowledge of the english language considering IATA and every other nation on earth requires you to speak english on the radio. In my opinion it does cause safety problems and it should not be tolerated by the industry or Transport Canada.
Now let's see if I can get elected.
Heartland, BMS
Now let's see if I can get elected.
Heartland, BMS
Canada recognizes French and English as the two official languages of this country. This is basically why certain areas of the country (the east) offer ATC services in French. ATC controllers who work Montreal TCA (or anything "NavCanada") must be bilingual. That makes sense. What doesn't make sense is that in order to fly in this area of the country, pilots are not required to be bilingual or at least have a good working knowledge of the language as it pertains to aviation and radio communications. Should we require it? Of course not. It is logistically not possible for this to happen. Is safety compromised? I don't think so. So far we have one example of a close call in how many years that this has been going on? Please post more if there are any.
My first language is French so for me, it'll never be a problem but I can see where it might be frustrating in terms of situational awareness for pilots who don't speak a word of it. The problem is, if you wish to call it that, is that it is indeed a right to speak French in this country and that will probably never change. It's the same if a French speaking pilot comes to Toronto (...sorry, centre of the universe...
). He/she will be required to speak in English on the radio. I don't hear them complaining about that. If you're an English speaking pilot flying in Quebec, then the same rules should apply.
Bottom line is, we should all be blingual. French is available in schools all the way up to high school. Everybody just dropped out of French as soon as they didn't have to take it anymore. And now they complain because they don't understand it and French people should just speak English and save everyone a lot of trouble. Who says?
My thoughts and no, I'm not from Quebec.
Cheers
My first language is French so for me, it'll never be a problem but I can see where it might be frustrating in terms of situational awareness for pilots who don't speak a word of it. The problem is, if you wish to call it that, is that it is indeed a right to speak French in this country and that will probably never change. It's the same if a French speaking pilot comes to Toronto (...sorry, centre of the universe...
). He/she will be required to speak in English on the radio. I don't hear them complaining about that. If you're an English speaking pilot flying in Quebec, then the same rules should apply. Bottom line is, we should all be blingual. French is available in schools all the way up to high school. Everybody just dropped out of French as soon as they didn't have to take it anymore. And now they complain because they don't understand it and French people should just speak English and save everyone a lot of trouble. Who says?
My thoughts and no, I'm not from Quebec.
Cheers
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Cat Driver
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I feel that Canada being a multicultural counrty we all should be forced to learn every launguage that our multicultural citizens speak.
And everyone should be forced to vote Liberal.
How about that idea?
And everyone should be forced to vote Liberal.
How about that idea?
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
ykzrampie wrote:Is safety compromised? I don't think so. So far we have one example of a close call in how many years that this has been going on? Please post more if there are any.
ICAO New Language Proficiency Requirements: A Safety Priority For SEPLABetween 1976 and 2000, more than 1,100 passengers and crew lost their lives in accidents in which investigators determined that language had played a contributory role. Moreover, numerous incidents involving language issues, including a number of runway incursions, are reported annually.
Concern over the role of language in airline accidents turned into action in 1998 when the ICAO Assembly assigned high priority to efforts to strengthen provisions concerning language requirements. Thus, in March 2003 ICAO amended Annexes 1, 6, 10 and 11 which contained the new language proficiency requirements. From 5th March 2008, a new ICAO proficiency standard for the use of English in aviation will become applicable to enhance safety. The emphasis is on the ability of pilots and air traffic controllers, both native and non-native English speakers, to comprehend and communicate effectively to a common standard.
ICAO FAQsIn which languages does a licence holder need to demonstrate proficiency?
Amendment 164 to Annex 1 has introduced strengthened language proficiency requirements for flight crew members and air traffic controllers. The language proficiency requirements apply to any language used for radiotelephony communications in international operations. Therefore, pilots on international flights shall demonstrate language proficiency in either English or the language used by the station on the ground. Controllers working on stations serving designated airports and routes used by international air services shall demonstrate language proficiency in English as well as in any other language(s) used by the station on the ground.
Considering the way French is taught in schools, it's no wonder few Canadians are bilingual. I took it for eleven years, not a chance I could communicate with anyone. But send me Skiing in Mont Sainte Anne for a week and it starts to make some sense. That's the only way to learn.
I finally decided to drop it in Grade 12 because it was lowering my average potentially preventing me from furthering my studies in science. If I need to study physics, french should not prevent me from doing so, that's why people drop it. Imagine cutting your quarterback because he never took home econonmics. It needs to be taught properly for the right reasons, and not have artificial penalties applied for not learning it.
I finally decided to drop it in Grade 12 because it was lowering my average potentially preventing me from furthering my studies in science. If I need to study physics, french should not prevent me from doing so, that's why people drop it. Imagine cutting your quarterback because he never took home econonmics. It needs to be taught properly for the right reasons, and not have artificial penalties applied for not learning it.
Manditory Spanish makes more sense these days.
"FLY THE AIRPLANE"!
http://www.youtube.com/hazatude
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Good question Cat!!! Short answer? They're always very friendly when they recognize the Quebec accent, merci beaucoup! And we have two flights a day from YUL to CDG...Cat Driver wrote:Speaking of bilingualism.
I wonder if the controllers in Paris France would provide Quebec French if asked?
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Cat Driver
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I was only kiddin Sky.. language can be a problem with anyone, but like any other difficulty all one needs to do is find the best way to communicate.
When I was first starting in aviation I flew in LaBelle Province for years and even though I was unilingual I do not ever recall being treated badly there because of my disability in language.
Hell I even spent part of a winter in Matagami.
Also spent several years in France and I am still so fu.kin stupid I still can't speak the language.
Anyhow gang enough of this language argument we can't change things so learn to get along.
Cat
When I was first starting in aviation I flew in LaBelle Province for years and even though I was unilingual I do not ever recall being treated badly there because of my disability in language.
Hell I even spent part of a winter in Matagami.
Also spent several years in France and I am still so fu.kin stupid I still can't speak the language.
Anyhow gang enough of this language argument we can't change things so learn to get along.
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
haha.. right now we have a french foriegn exchange student with our family from france. She has heard the french from quebec. She says that its not realy french. I guess what she means is like newfoundlanders cant speak english very well. hahaha
But I agree, when i hear someone speaking french on the radio, i cant understand.
Another thing that bothers me is some shared frequencies. I fly in brockville and we share 123.00 with watertown NY. I happen to remember some radio chatter about how beautiful the moon was and how big it was.. then after they continued to talk... they started making plans to go out for some food after flying. I really hate it when people say useless things on the radio
But I agree, when i hear someone speaking french on the radio, i cant understand.
Another thing that bothers me is some shared frequencies. I fly in brockville and we share 123.00 with watertown NY. I happen to remember some radio chatter about how beautiful the moon was and how big it was.. then after they continued to talk... they started making plans to go out for some food after flying. I really hate it when people say useless things on the radio
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justplanecrazy
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I don't know how international you are, except for the cat driver, but this English only policy is only applied at major international airports. Smaller ICAO airports can, or may use English, but rarely, if the flights are all local flights.
Most planes that I fly in here as a passenger, do not have a pilot that can make the cabin announcements in English!
In most of the ex-soviet countries, Russian is the secondary language. English is starting to be tought.
As for me, I believe that the more languages one speaks, the better he will develop his brains. There are facts to support this.
Condoliza speaks five languages, and George W. half of one...
There is no age to learn, but the sooner the better.
During my military career, I worked in French and English, but got well exposed to German, Arabic and Spanish. Now at 53, I started to learn Russian last year...in Afghanistan...Tough, but manageable, and I hope to write the russian government's exam next spring.
Believe me, a new language opens horizons, cultures, etc
До встречи!
Most planes that I fly in here as a passenger, do not have a pilot that can make the cabin announcements in English!
In most of the ex-soviet countries, Russian is the secondary language. English is starting to be tought.
As for me, I believe that the more languages one speaks, the better he will develop his brains. There are facts to support this.
Condoliza speaks five languages, and George W. half of one...
There is no age to learn, but the sooner the better.
During my military career, I worked in French and English, but got well exposed to German, Arabic and Spanish. Now at 53, I started to learn Russian last year...in Afghanistan...Tough, but manageable, and I hope to write the russian government's exam next spring.
Believe me, a new language opens horizons, cultures, etc
До встречи!
Success in life is when the cognac that you drink is older than the women you drink it with.
See, I even agree with Heartland!Heartland wrote:But what happens when two French speaking pilot's, speak to each other in French giving positon reports on 126.7 to each other that rest of us can't understand. This of course occuring in an area that is not just predominantly, but exclusively English speaking as most areas of uncontrolled airspace are in Western Canada. Uacceptable
Or a French speaking pilot not even making traffic reports because he or she does not speak english well enough for them to make sense, or on the other side of the coin making traffic reports in English that no one can understand and thus causing traffic conflicts. Unacceptable
It only aggravates the situation when said pilots believe that it is their legal right to speak French on the radio anywhere in Canada to anyone, including other pilots and controllers, and not understanding that the bill only provided for French to be spoken at the three airports out east. Do they really believe that?
French in the air...
I'm flying in Quebec on floats for another couple of days, and I have had little trouble with French Speaking pilots. I'm the only Anglophone in the area and I have learned to recognize voices of other pilots in the area. A lot of them don't broadcast airborne and landing intentions, and that is more of a problem than langauge. The name of a place is the name, regardless of langauge.. I spotted a helicopter just yesterday not more than a half mile ahead of me heading the opposite direction, about fifty feet highter. He never saw me at all until I said hello I just keep my eyes open a little bit further in Quebec....
I just keep my eyes open a little bit further in Quebec....-
snaproll20
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planett is correct. I pulled my kids out of French immersion when it became apparent that they could not converse in technical language. My daughter had science problems and when I tried to help, we simply could not communicate, and not just because my French was rusty.
She would never have made it through medical school if she had continued to study sciences in French.
Someone asked for examples of language problems. Well, the jet crashing into a mountain in Indonesia that is used for CFIT training had language problems, and was not the Russian/other aircraft over Europe mid-air that killed many kids, also a language-related problem?
Once, flying into Quebec City, my fluent partner and I were very nervous about a French-speaking aircraft chasing us to the runway.
While I support Quebecers right to speak French, I do not believe it belongs in the air. To me, it is definitely an open window for loss of situational awareness.
It may not sound fair, but if you look at the cold truth, French is a declining language that has adopted many English words in this modern world. The French French made attempts to remove them, but technology and international communications disarmed their efforts.
While living in Northern Ontario, I was continually amazed at the ability of the people to switch from French to English and back, sometimes in a single sentence. I think the trigger was that there was a more suitable, descriptive word in the other language.
But, that only proves the mixing, the melding together which will eventually overrun the French language.
She would never have made it through medical school if she had continued to study sciences in French.
Someone asked for examples of language problems. Well, the jet crashing into a mountain in Indonesia that is used for CFIT training had language problems, and was not the Russian/other aircraft over Europe mid-air that killed many kids, also a language-related problem?
Once, flying into Quebec City, my fluent partner and I were very nervous about a French-speaking aircraft chasing us to the runway.
While I support Quebecers right to speak French, I do not believe it belongs in the air. To me, it is definitely an open window for loss of situational awareness.
It may not sound fair, but if you look at the cold truth, French is a declining language that has adopted many English words in this modern world. The French French made attempts to remove them, but technology and international communications disarmed their efforts.
While living in Northern Ontario, I was continually amazed at the ability of the people to switch from French to English and back, sometimes in a single sentence. I think the trigger was that there was a more suitable, descriptive word in the other language.
But, that only proves the mixing, the melding together which will eventually overrun the French language.
