Cleared for AN approach

fixed pitch · Post by **fixed pitch** » Thu Oct 26, 2006 1:58 pm

if ATC tells you "you're cleared for an approach" and you respond, cleared for an apprch in ABC, does this mean you're cleared for whatever apprch you want including a visual or a contact? I believe so, though others have told me otherwise, any takers? Assuming you can't get through to centre by the time you have the field visual or are in conditions that would warrant a contact.

Cap'n P8 · Post by **Cap'n P8** » Thu Oct 26, 2006 2:05 pm

No, if you would like to do a contact you must request it. Also, it doesn't matter if you're above a solid layer, they can still give it to you if the conditions at the airport warrant it...I think the ceiling has to be 500 feet above the MSA or something to that effect. I think you're confusing the contact with the visual approach, which they can't clear you for until you report the field in sight, or the traffic you are following if applicable.

fixed pitch · Post by **fixed pitch** » Thu Oct 26, 2006 2:11 pm

no, I know the diff between a vis and a contact. I meant, does the "cleared for AN apprch" encompass all types? I've been cleared for AN apprch into yxz airport and come back and requested a contact for yxz airport to which the response has been, you're cleared for AN approach. I'm talking fields which are uncontrolled and below centre's range.

raven54 · Post by **raven54** » Thu Oct 26, 2006 2:19 pm

You are only cleared for a published IFR approach.

BTD · Post by **BTD** » Thu Oct 26, 2006 2:25 pm

According to the Instrument Procedures Manual (which isn't always bang on) the term "cleared for an Approach" does not clear you for a contact or visual approach. Its on page 4-27 of this version.

Otherwise, as soon as you receive an approach clearance you should advise ATC of the type of approach procedure to be flow and the route. (transition etc to the fix where the approach begins)

All of that is out of the IPM.

BTD

Pygmie · Post by **Pygmie** » Thu Oct 26, 2006 2:31 pm

Simple answer, no, you cannot conduct a visual or contact approach. You must fly a published instrument approach as filled. You may however come back to the controller when he issues "for an approach" and request the contact or the visual, in which case he'll tell you whether or not that's approved.

Aeros · Post by **Aeros** » Thu Oct 26, 2006 4:19 pm

From my trusty AIM:

Section 9.3 Approach Clearance

At some locations during periods of light traffic, controllers may issue clearances that do not specify the type of approach.

Example:

CLEARED TO THE LETHBRIDGE AIRPORT FOR AN APPROACH.

When such a clearance is issued by ATC and accepted by the pilot, the pilot has the option of conducting any published instrument approach procedure. In addition, the pilot also has the option of proceeding by the route so cleared by ATC in a previous clearance, by any published transition or feeder route associated with the selected procedure, or by a route present position direct to a fix associated with the selected instrument approach procedure. Pilots who choose to proceed to the instrument procedure fix via a route that is off an airway, air route or transition are responsible for maintaining the appropriate obstacle clearance, complying with noise abatement procedures and remaining clear of Class F airspace. As soon as practicable after receipt of this type of clearance, it is the pilot’s responsibility to advise ATC of the type of published instrument approach procedure that will be carried out, the landing runway and the intended route to be flown.

This clearance does not constitute authority for the pilot to execute a contact or visual approach. Should the pilot prefer to conduct a visual approach (published or non-published) or a contact approach, the pilot must specifically communicate that request to the controller.

The emphasis is mine, but I think that the answer is clear -- Any published approach is OK but you cannot carry out either a visual or contact approach without requesting one and then getting that appropriate clearance.

fixed pitch · Post by **fixed pitch** » Thu Oct 26, 2006 4:32 pm

thank you all, I'm now off the fence.

Axial Flow · Post by **Axial Flow** » Thu Oct 26, 2006 4:43 pm

If the weather warrants just always request the contact. That way you are authorized to JUST GIVER !

Nightflight · Post by **Nightflight** » Thu Oct 26, 2006 4:49 pm

I agree with no visual or contact approach. what I do is request the option for the contact so I can switch at any time and all my bases are covered. So it would go something like this:
ATC: XXX you are cleared to YYY for an approach.
ME: Readback and requesting the option for the contact.
ATC: contact is approved.
Me: HAPPY

merlin · Post by **merlin** » Thu Oct 26, 2006 4:52 pm

If the airport is uncontrolled with no radio or cars service, it is my understanding that it is up to you which approach you fly. Be it the Vis. the contact, or the published IFR approach.

Not to long ago I was flying into CYET, and was "cleared for an approach". I came back and requested the option for the contact approach, to which the controller said " that is at your discretion as it is outside controlled airspace".

rigpiggy · Post by **rigpiggy** » Thu Oct 26, 2006 5:56 pm

Had my peepee slapped after flying a circling approach after being "cleared the approach" just make it easy on yourself and ask for the option

Pygmie · Post by **Pygmie** » Thu Oct 26, 2006 6:27 pm

rigpiggy wrote:Had my peepee slapped after flying a circling approach after being "cleared the approach" just make it easy on yourself and ask for the option

You can conduct a circling approach when cleared for an approach, so long as the controller doesn't specify which approach you are to use. We have aircraft conduct circling approaches on a daily when we clear them for an approach.

junk · Post by **junk** » Thu Oct 26, 2006 6:42 pm

ok

So you are cleared for an approach to an airport that is uncontrolled, no cars no fss, but it is underneath controlled airspace like an airway. The controller clears you for the NDB A out of controlled airspace. Does that mean that you have to do the approach when you reach uncontrolled airspace or can you do whatever you want now because you are outside of controlled airpace

Louis · Post by **Louis** » Thu Oct 26, 2006 9:14 pm

I'd say in this case clearance to one given approach has more to do with protecting airspace and giving you a clearance limit in case you have to do a missed approach.

shitdisturber · Post by **shitdisturber** » Thu Oct 26, 2006 9:20 pm

rigpiggy wrote:Had my peepee slapped after flying a circling approach after being "cleared the approach" just make it easy on yourself and ask for the option

Based on what you've said, I'd say the peepee slapping was out of line; if you've been cleared an approach at an uncontrolled aerodrome a circling approach is not only legitimate, it's almost required unless you had some way of determining the wind direction and runway obstructions that you haven't mentioned.

zzjayca · Post by **zzjayca** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 7:09 am

Is the circling procedure a published approach for the aerodrome?

If it is, then you don't need to ask for approval. If it isn't, it's the same as a contact or visual. You need ATC approval first as "Cleared for an approach" only gives clearance for an a/c to conduct any published approach procedure.

If the aerodrome is in uncontrolled airspace (not the same as no airport control service), you can do what you want once you are clear of controlled airspace as long as your manoeuvres won't cause you to renter controlled airspace. If you are cleared to depart controlled airspace via the NDB A approach, then until you are clear of controlled airspace you are required to conduct the NDB A approach.

There was another thread dealing with pilots who turn without clearance just a few days ago in the ATS section called:

"Cleared to depart [high level] controlled airspace."

confuzed · Post by **confuzed** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 12:33 pm

Cap'n P8 wrote:No, if you would like to do a contact you must request it. Also, it doesn't matter if you're above a solid layer, they can still give it to you if the conditions at the airport warrant it...I think the ceiling has to be 500 feet above the MSA or something to that effect. I think you're confusing the contact with the visual approach, which they can't clear you for until you report the field in sight, or the traffic you are following if applicable.

"A contact approach is an approach wherein an aircraft on an IFR flight plan or flight itinerary having an ATC clearance, operating clear of clouds with at least 1 NM flight visibility and a reasonable expectation of continuing to the destination airport in those conditions, may deviate from the IAP and proceed to the destination airport by visual reference to the surface of the earth"

So I guess by your definition, above the layer is considered clear of clouds?? I've always been told by previous captains that I flew with (and the way I interpreted it as well) that you MUST have ground visibility before asking for the contact. Anyone else heard the same, or is P8 correct on this and my previous captains (and my thinking) were/are wrong???

. ._ · Post by **. ._** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 12:54 pm

BTD wrote:According to the Instrument Procedures Manual (which isn't always bang on) the term "cleared for an Approach" does not clear you for a contact or visual approach. Its on page 4-27 of this version.

Otherwise, as soon as you receive an approach clearance you should advise ATC of the type of approach procedure to be flow and the route. (transition etc to the fix where the approach begins)

All of that is out of the IPM.

BTD

If there's anyone who needs an IFR job, it's you BTD!

Somebody hire this guy! I know him. He's good. pm me if you want more gossip on the guy.

-istp

Axial Flow · Post by **Axial Flow** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 1:10 pm

Well when does the "contact" portion begin ? If I was doing a transition to the IF or FAF that brought me to 2500 feet and the celing was 2500 or so and when I got down to that altitude if I could see a mile or more and it was gonna hold for the app then I could giver on the approach. If I always get the option for it and the weather is better then advertised then I don't need to call up center and get the contact. I can just keep on keepin on and go in direct for the runway.

Personally its just easier to ask for it anyways and save the violation. Although I have been refused due to IFR traffic before for a contact. Not sure what was going on but the other guy was going to be close to my vicinity and I guess the controller didn't want me to do whatever I wished so to speak. Only happened once.

Do what you gotta, the simple rules are don't die, don't get violated and always be able to take the plane for another flight (preferebly without requiring mtc to look it over first

Pygmie · Post by **Pygmie** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 2:23 pm

confuzed: Yes, you need to have visual with the ground at all times. Just look a little further in the quote you gave "...may deviate from the IAP and proceed to the destination airport by visual reference to the surface of the earth." From that, you do need visual with the surface of the earth.

What Cap'n P8 was getting at, which is also correct, is you do not need to be clear of cloud to request the contact. If ATC clears you for an approach, you can request the contact right away, even if you are still IMC, and conduct a published approach until you are clear of cloud, at which point you can break off the IAP and proceed with the contact.

confuzed · Post by **confuzed** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 6:15 pm

Pygmie...thanks for the clarification, I guess I just misunderstood what P8 was getting at when he was talking about getting the contact above the layer.

Flying Low · Post by **Flying Low** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:22 pm

When you are cleared for an approach you are suppose to advise the controller of the approach you are planning.

Rigpiggy...did you advise the controller you were going to circle? This might be why you got your peepee slapped.

Cap'n P8 · Post by **Cap'n P8** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 6:57 pm

Just so there's no confusion about the issue, when I said ask for the contact while still IMC, I keep trucking it in, usually to the FAF and down to the MSA. If I get to the MSA and I'm clear of clouds at that point...voila contact approach direct to the field, if no ground contact, continue to the FAF, then once passing the FAF inbound, down to mins for the approach. If it doesn't look like a contact will work then I don't even bother asking for one.

And the reason that I don't ask for the visual is because they can't clear you for the visual until you have the field in sight which obviously wouldn't be the case.