Skill Level....recent IFR flight school grads vs. Ramp Rats.

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Fri Nov 10, 2006 8:25 pm

Some mud is tossed in the direction of companies that hire new pilots to work ramps. By me. And others. Now, I was thinking (unusual for me, I'll admit) about the skill level of the recent grad vs. the "rampie". Lets assume, the new IFR pilot knows nothing (otherwise, why hire them to work the ramps to "learn"?) but, with 250 hours, a two year stint on the dock/ramp would erode much of that very limited skill level? I know, when Air Canada hired the first Seneca grads, and put them in the back seat of the DC8's (which, has to be at least as good a learning situation as a dock?) they had real problems going right seat in the DC9's. They couldn't fly! And then there's the "you owe me an airplane" attitude with some ramp rats? You dont get that with a recent grad.....they're there to learn AND fly. And say what you will about "learning to fuel, load etc" on a ramp, NOTHING teaches you more, faster than "stick time". Let pilots fly...and hire students or casual labor for your docks and ramps.
Thoughts?

jspitfire · Post by **jspitfire** » Fri Nov 10, 2006 8:35 pm

Being a recent Multi-IFR graduate, and currently working on the ramp, I couldn't agree with you more!

Yes, you do learn some stuff on the ramp, but not a lot of it applies to actually flying the planes. And with the wages I'm getting, there is no way I am able to rent a Multi and keep current that way! It has been about 6 months since I finished my IFR, and already a lot of that knowledge is starting to dissapear.

master switch · Post by **master switch** » Fri Nov 10, 2006 8:42 pm

whats better for gaining flying skills? instructing or ramping?

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Fri Nov 10, 2006 8:46 pm

I'm sorry master switch....no disrespect intended, but that was a pretty silly question.....a flight instructor actually has to FLY! How would working a ramp improve your flying skills?

hazatude · Post by **hazatude** » Fri Nov 10, 2006 9:10 pm

Doc wrote:I'm sorry master switch....no disrespect intended, but that was a pretty stupid question.....a flight instructor actually has to FLY! How would working a ramp improve your flying skills?

Would not but it would improve your life skills...

permateacher · Post by **permateacher** » Fri Nov 10, 2006 9:17 pm

That's interesting...

As far ability to pass rides, the multi-ifr grad is more current and has the fresher knowlege. The ramp guy has to keep studying and still is thrown into a tough senario after not flying for a while.

However, anyone can fly a plane (pretty much), but it takes the right person to fit in at a company. I guy can be great at flying ILS's or whatever but if he has an attitude he'll be horrible to pour money into for traqining. Sure he'll train quicker, but there's an awful risk getting the wroun person in there. A few more dollars on the right guy may yeild you a better employee in the end.

J Roc · Post by **J Roc** » Fri Nov 10, 2006 10:04 pm

Doc wrote:I'm sorry master switch....no disrespect intended, but that was a pretty stupid question.....

Yah, that comment oozes respect.

Scuba_Steve · Post by **Scuba_Steve** » Fri Nov 10, 2006 10:05 pm

How about you hire a fresh grad with the ink still wet on his/her Mutli-IFR and he can sure pass a ride but, you find out later, is a complete douche.....

Ramp lets you find that out before you give him/her a PPC.

Don't get me wrong had I been given the chance to go straight into ANY aircraft out of flight school I would have jumped at it. But I worked the ramp, hated it, but am proud I did it.

Cheers

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Fri Nov 10, 2006 10:22 pm

J Roc, well, it WAS a stupid question.
permateacher..funny how people seem to think, that just because a pilot never worked the ramp he wouldn't "fit in"? Why couldn't someone out of a flight school fit in? Why must pilots "prove" themselves by working for peanuts? And no, not everyone can "pretty much" fly...not a guy with 250 hours and two years of no stick time.
Scuba_steve....we can think of one pilot who should have worked a ramp, can't we......but could afford not to! In that case, there was no skill to erode!

co-joe · Post by **co-joe** » Fri Nov 10, 2006 10:26 pm

Doc wrote:I'm sorry master switch....no disrespect intended, but that was a pretty stupid question.....a flight instructor actually has to FLY! How would working a ramp improve your flying skills?

Wooo there Doc, he gave an honest answer, no need to get nasty.

Basically I know what you are after, and no question, after a year or two on the ramp you are going to have a tough time with a PPC. That is unless you go spend some bucks in the sim or on an aircraft. OR in an extreme case if you actually work for a company that puts a high value on training and sends you to sim.

Buuuuttt! And it's a big BUT, someone who has been on the ramp and proved themselves IS definitely going to know the operation better FTGU and will undoubtedly make a better line pilot. They will already have a good working relationship with their peers and know how the operation is supposed to function.

Personally if given the choice of working with someone who lucked into a job without playing ramp survivor first, or someone who"did their time". I'd go with the experienced ramp rat any day.

xsbank · Post by **xsbank** » Fri Nov 10, 2006 10:53 pm

You'll see from my posts on the other category that I think pilots working the ramp to get to fly (without the guy actually flying empty legs, freight etc.) is simply exploitation.

Getting someone who is familiar with aircraft, mostly trained, is better for the company than hiring a lunch-bucket off the street, and the pilot gets the same or worse wages than would have to be paid the L-B. Plus, if the L-B stays, they will have to raise his wages, not the pilot!

I think that rather than work the ramp for sh*t wages, just to get into the right seat for sh*t wages, only to get checked out on a Navajo for sh*t wages, that it would be much better to go overseas for a few years and get some experience on larger a/c (for sh*t wages?) and come back here all experienced and type rated on something. Or, don't come back at all and work for Cathay, Emirates etc.

In fact, I even opined it might be better to not even bother getting a Canadian license and get an FAA or JAA license.

Work the ramp without the flying and PROVE you're a wienie.

wanderer · Post by **wanderer** » Fri Nov 10, 2006 11:06 pm

So let me get this straight.

Pilots shouldn't take a job working the ramp because it will make it difficult for them to obtain a PPC. Right?

What if they were to just purchase their own PPC? Wouldn't that make them more attractive to an employer and more likely to go right seat immediately after finishing training?

oates76 · Post by **oates76** » Fri Nov 10, 2006 11:39 pm

here we go.... you had to bring up the ppc purchase.

Anyway, I have to say I was thinking the same thing as Doc, I'm currently a rampie who's finishing the commercial/multi-IFR, and am worried that once I'm finished I'll have to go through the ramp thing all over again with another company up north, and have my skills go down the drain. The 250hrs I'll finish with sure isn't a heck of a lot of experience, and whith that little time, things tend to leave your mind fairly quickly.

buck82 · Post by **buck82** » Fri Nov 10, 2006 11:55 pm

Seems to me if employers could interview properly, check references, and select the right personality to fit the company they shouldn't need to put people through the dock hand/ramp rat loop. Nothing beats stick time! Without any you will always be at the bottom of the pile.

Hoov · Post by **Hoov** » Sat Nov 11, 2006 12:32 am

Obviously you are gonna be a more proficient pilot right after training instead of 2 years after training, however it wont take long to get back to that level. So thats a fact, you are gonna fly better right out of school versus two years after school.

However my question is why is this even a question? It comes down to supply and demand people. To many fresh people out of school not enough seats for those asses to fill. I dont believe for a second that in this day and age you should wait two years, there is definately companies out there that will you get you flying before that, however in this day and age and in the future it will be very unlikely that you will walk straight from training into the seat of an airplane. In our generation and for a long time to come instructing and being a rampie is a fact, these hypothetical questions are a waist of time.

So what will we all collectively learn from your question? Probably nothing us rampies will go on and be rampies and instructors will go on and teach. There might be a few newcomers who will read this and either be discouraged and decide not to enter aviation as a career or there might be a few who decide they are above being a rampie or instructor and decide that they are above that and should buy a PPC. Maybe we should read the topic in employment forum where a student who had no idea about the real aviation world was torn to shreds about buying a PPC.

Im sure he had the same idea though, why should I be a rampie when I will be a much better pilot right out school?

Ps The grammar might be shitty, god damn booze has that effect.

Scuba_Steve · Post by **Scuba_Steve** » Sat Nov 11, 2006 12:55 am

buck82 wrote:Seems to me if employers could interview properly, check references, and select the right personality to fit the company they shouldn't need to put people through the dock hand/ramp rat loop. Nothing beats stick time! Without any you will always be at the bottom of the pile.

And what references is some 19 yr old kid right out of flight school goign to have? I've met many a pilot who are living proof that they'll give liscenses to monkeys if they have enough money (right doc?) and what is his/her instructor going to say? hell the guy/gal probably doesn't have much more time than their student in some cases..

Also I think there is a difference between interviewing well and being able to do the job...

cheers

bob sacamano · Post by **bob sacamano** » Sat Nov 11, 2006 4:09 am

Pilots study so they can fly, not to work the ramp.

Not many places in the world where you have this messed up system.

Right now, this is how it works in our country, so don't feel bad if you're doing it, you're just working with what you've got. However, let's be real here, having pilots work the ramp for peanuts is pure exploitation, like someone else said earlier. You can work the system and still think about it, don't be brainwashed.

. . · Post by **. .** » Sat Nov 11, 2006 5:00 am

The first time I made more than working the ramp was when I became a captain on a multi turbine >12500lb plane.

While working the ramp I flew as much as I could on my days off.

While working as a crewman I got to watch the decision making process of pilots who had in excess of 20,000hrs. It's the decision making process that's important when you have 250hrs. Everyone at 250hrs is going to suck regardless of whether they've spent a year on the ramp or got their MIFR signed off yesterday. Tutoring under the experieced guys gives you a depth of experience that you wouldn't have had otherwise.

I wonder how many of those knocking the ramp process worked the ramp and sucessfully transistioned to a flying job? I both instructed and then after worked the ramp. I can tell you that I learnt a lot more about flying working the ramp than I did sitting in the right seat and watching percautionary landings.

trey kule · Post by **trey kule** » Sat Nov 11, 2006 6:41 am

You know I was not going to get into this, but it is Saturday morning and I am prepped up on a brazillian cups of coffee so:

A/c's experience is not different than what is happening in Europe right now. Despite every young pilot trotting out the "see what they are doing in Europe " line, they are having problems. The airlines involved came to the conclusion that modern equipment really only needs one experienced pilot and an assistant. Hence they TRAINED some people to help out in the cockpit. they unfortunately chose those with some flying experience and now are finding that while this whole thing works in the short term, in the long term the experience gained by the right seaters will not be particularily advantageous in moving them to the left seat....career co-joes, and a soon to be gap in captains. Now what does this have to do with Canada?

The truth is that a 250 hr, newly minted pilot needs more training, despite, as clunk Driver so elequently put it, their somewhat large heads. companies, on the other hand are not in the business of basic training. They want pilots with experience who they simply have to train on type to company standards. And this creates a problem. Our new pilots seem to be able to handle the conflicting concepts that they are valuable as pilots AND that they need experience. It is a chicken and egg thing. five or six hours of float training, or buying a PPC, another 10 hours of multi is not going to do it.

Instructing, despite the opinions, can be a good way. There are good and bad instructors. Having said that instructing Multi IFR without any real world expereince, has been , in my experience a bad thing as the instructors come out with a huge amount of attitude and flying but virtually zero real world and cloud experience.

The ramp however should be left to professionals who understand that their job is to safely and carefully deal with that $10,000,000 piece of equipment and not with pilot wannabees whose focus seems to be on welcoming the flight crew and presenting them with resumes....the buzzword is "networking" I think.

Now back to the coffee

master switch · Post by **master switch** » Sat Nov 11, 2006 8:00 am

J Roc wrote:
Doc wrote:I'm sorry master switch....no disrespect intended, but that was a pretty stupid question.....
Yah, that comment oozes respect.

ya it does seem pretty stupid to ask doesnt it. im assuming this thread was started after the PAG metro accident and that dudes go into that thing from the ramp. I just dont get how 'the two year stint on the ramp' means youre good to go on something like a metro. maybe a 206 or something similar to what most people trained on, but i dont get how that makes you good for a twin turbine.

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Sat Nov 11, 2006 8:15 am

master switch, while this thread started after PAG's Metro mishap, it has NOTHING to do with it. There is nothing wrong with a rampie, of a new IFR grad getting into a Metro right seat. There is NO magic to a Metro. He'd have a lot harder time as a "lone wolf" in a 206! And I doubt the right-seater was flying the Metro on that landing? But I don't want to get into the PAG thing here...that's another thread.

TopperHarley · Post by **TopperHarley** » Sat Nov 11, 2006 10:41 am

master switch wrote:ya it does seem pretty stupid to ask doesnt it. im assuming this thread was started after the PAG metro accident and that dudes go into that thing from the ramp. I just dont get how 'the two year stint on the ramp' means youre good to go on something like a metro. maybe a 206 or something similar to what most people trained on, but i dont get how that makes you good for a twin turbine.

As someone clearly stated in the PAG post, the combined experience between the FO and PIC was close to 10,000hrs. Also, even if it was a newly minted FO, he/she would not have been at the controls as PICs do the landings onto gravel strips. This incident could have happened to anyone- it wasn't about a lack of experience or someone spending "too much time" on the ramp.

heeypilot · Post by **heeypilot** » Sat Nov 11, 2006 11:20 am

working on the ramp is the company's way of sorting through all you whiney, mamas-boy types and pick who has the best ATTITUDE for the job.... trust me, you're not getting hired because of your pilot 'skills.'

you. know. nothing. you. are. nothing. you are there to LEARN.

so really, whether you're fresh out of school or you've been on the ramp for 2 years makes NO difference. i'd rather hire a humbled ramp rat whom at least has an idea of how a REAL airline is run, than a fresh aviation grad who shows up in his Ray Bans and thinks a 1900 is the space shuttle.

to those guys that say 'waaaaaaa my IFR skills are going away waaaaaa MOMMM!!!!' pick up a fucking book and study. trust me, renting a duchess for 2 hours will make absolutely no difference to the 10 hours you already have.

ps. instructors don't fly planes either.

Switchfoot · Post by **Switchfoot** » Sat Nov 11, 2006 11:25 am

Doc wrote: Lets assume, the new IFR pilot knows nothing (otherwise, why hire them to work the ramps to "learn"?) but, with 250 hours, a two year stint on the dock/ramp would erode much of that very limited skill level?

I'd agree very much that sitting at the dock or ramping would 'erode' a pilot's skill. We all know that our flying skills get rusty quickly unless we're practicing the procedures/skills we just learned at school. As for real world knowledge, well, that's something that can't be taught in a classroom.

I don't think there is anything wrong with hard work to prove oneself. But being taken advantage of or being used to the employers benefit is wrong. Nothing wrong with ramping for a time either, just not too long. If you're a pilot, try to fly not to ramp. (never had to do that exclusively but it was incorporated into the starting jobs I've had, and I had no trouble getting my hands dirty).

As for the decision making skills...those are learned through personal experience. What to do in the event of an engine failure or malfunction, IFR skills in minimum weather, and any number of various other situations must be learned through actual events taking place. You can't develop those skills from watching on the ramp. You have to be in the airplane and see for yourself.

Switchfoot

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Sat Nov 11, 2006 11:40 am

heeypilot....your's is the exact attitude I'd like to see totally removed from aviation! This absolute CRAP that everybody who gets a flying job is a complete moron! The whole idea, that just because someone is low time and new, that they know nothing makes me want to puke. I'd guess you were never new, and that NOW you know everything? If a guy gets into a right seat, he can easily double that 250 hours in a matter of a couple of months! And believe me, I can have a guy ready to "rock and roll" in a couple of months in an airplane! I'd WAY rather have a guy who knows which way to turn to intercept a track, than somebody who knows how much a pallet of Coke weighs.
BTW, a guy with six months instructing can fly circles around a six month ramp rat!

Skill Level....recent IFR flight school grads vs. Ramp Rats.

Skill Level....recent IFR flight school grads vs. Ramp Rats.

ramp

Re: Skill Level....recent IFR flight school grads vs. Ramp R