OK, I've noticed that the signal to noise ratio has been getting bad here recently. In the spirit of improving that I'm offering the following practical flight exercise for newer instructors.
One of the major things that sets a pilot with good hands and feet apart from one that doesn't is yaw control. Students have to learn to control yaw right from the start. This can be done on any a/c, even a nose-dragger, and is best done as part of attitudes and movements. It can be repeated as needed.
Start by putting the a/c into stable flight around ~2500' agl and 70ish knots.
(In a 150 -172 ~2000 RPM and 10 deg flap does the trick)
Line up on a geographical feature such as a road or some point on the horizon that you can point the nose at.
With your feet flat on the floor smoothly and quickly open the throttle all the way, then smoothly and quickly reduce it to about 1700 rpm. Repeat this several times with no pause in between. The nose will get a really good swing motion going. Now repeat the ex. but use the rudders to hold the nose on the point/geographic feature. Have the student repeat the ex.
Next, with the a/c still configured for 70K with 10 deg flap, place your feet flat on the floor and put in full aileron to the left, let the bank get up to about 30 deg and then put in full right aileron, let the a/c roll about 30 deg and then reverse the aileron again. Keep this up for several repetitions. You will see that there are long periods of time where the a/c is yawing in the exact opposite direction of the roll. (ie, you have full left aileron and the nose is yawing right really fast). Now, repeat the ex, but this time add rudder at the same time as you start the roll. The nose will track smoothly. Let the student try it next.
Finally, put the a/c into coordinated flight. Listen to the prop. Now, as you are listening to the prop, push the rudder a bit and start a slip. You will hear a bit or a beat frequency develop. The point being you can hear when the a/c is flying uncoordinated. Make sure to point this out ot the student.
As was said, do this early in the training and don't be afraid to repeat it (as a review before steep turns is usually good).
Anyone else have a concrete practical exercise to share with new instructors?
Leading by example.
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, Right Seat Captain, lilfssister, North Shore
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Cat Driver
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Yeh, great idea, teach them to be throttle jockys and their employers down the road can just put money into changing engines instead of putting it into higher wages." Line up on a geographical feature such as a road or some point on the horizon that you can point the nose at.
With your feet flat on the floor smoothly and quickly open the throttle all the way, then smoothly and quickly reduce it to about 1700 rpm. Repeat this several times with no pause in between. The nose will get a really good swing motion going. Now repeat the ex. but use the rudders to hold the nose on the point/geographic feature. Have the student repeat the ex. "
You ever owned an airplane mcrit?
That is a new one, I never ever heard of deliberately quick surging an engine with throttle to produce yaw...........
I think I'll just pass on that demo and figure out if there could possibly be a better way to produce yaw.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
I've been in a job where there are folks standing on open ramps under the tail throwing stuff. There is also a lot of maneuvering in these situations. A lazy-footed pilot can make life really rough for the guys in the back.
My training for these lazy pilots was to repeatedly turn between horizon references about 90 deg apart concentrating on coordinating their feet and hands. Worked just fine.
Yaw control with power application was never really a huge issue.
My training for these lazy pilots was to repeatedly turn between horizon references about 90 deg apart concentrating on coordinating their feet and hands. Worked just fine.
Yaw control with power application was never really a huge issue.
The probability of survival is dependent on the angle of arrival.
There is (similar to mcrit's second suggestion) - enter slow flight and simply enter a "turn" without using the rudder pedals. After a few seconds, move the stick the other way - nice and smoothly of course, and repeat. The aileron drag will be quite evident -- i.e. the nose will be moving opposite to the way you are moving the stick. Now that the problem is shown - fix it with proper rudder use. Works wonders for lazy-footed (feeted?) pilots...Cat Driver wrote: That is a new one, I never ever heard of deliberately quick surging an engine with throttle to produce yaw...........
I think I'll just pass on that demo and figure out if there could possibly be a better way to produce yaw.
Mcrit - you titled your post "lead by example" so I'm sure you understand that once a student sees who they think is an "all knowing flight instructor" they will assume that everything the instructor does is the right thing to do. Using the throttle/power lever as you suggested can have very expensive results on turbine aircraft (as well, of course, not the healthiest thing for your piston one - even the thought of doing this to the Chipmunk makes me shudder.) I'm a Training Captain on the Caravan where I currently fly, and I can tell you this: it is VERY difficult for a pilot to unlearn bad habits. VERY difficult.
Cheers
Last edited by chipmunk on Sat Jan 06, 2007 8:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Cat Driver
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Hows things Chipmunk?
Going back to Africa soon?
As to this:
You coming out here for some free Cub float flying when I get it finished?
Going back to Africa soon?
As to this:
I was being facetious Chipmunk, but i'm sure you already figured that out." I think I'll just pass on that demo and figure out if there could possibly be a better way to produce yaw. "
You coming out here for some free Cub float flying when I get it finished?
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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Cat Driver
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Will do, float flying on the west coast of Vancouver island is priceless.
And the Cub costs peanuts to operate, I saw the look on your face when you got out of the chipmunk and just know you would love floats.
And all I have left is some time to enjoy flying instead of working at it.
Cat
And the Cub costs peanuts to operate, I saw the look on your face when you got out of the chipmunk and just know you would love floats.
And all I have left is some time to enjoy flying instead of working at it.
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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Stan_Cooper
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Come on Cat... I think you could have made this point without belittling mcrit... There are lots of ways to produce yaw but it sounds like part of the point of this exercise is to demonstrate the way that power changes produce yaw. I never used to surge the engine the way mcrit describes and I don't think it's necessary, but it is important to link the idea of throttle movements with yaw control.Cat Driver wrote:Yeh, great idea, teach them to be throttle jockys and their employers down the road can just put money into changing engines instead of putting it into higher wages.
You ever owned an airplane mcrit?
That is a new one, I never ever heard of deliberately quick surging an engine with throttle to produce yaw...........
I think I'll just pass on that demo and figure out if there could possibly be a better way to produce yaw.
I had a couple of lesson plans that I think really made for an intense and engaging session with the student. One of my favourites was teaching the basic instrument flight exercises. I was lucky to be at a school that had a level 3 FTD. After a review of flight instrument principles of operation, and a discussion on the concept of an 'instrument scan', I'd set the sim up in night mode on the runway. The instructions: Take off and climb runway heading to three thousand feet. What I didn't tell them is that the ceiling was set to 50'. Most of the time the student would enter a spiral in short order, at which time I would pause the sim and we would discuss the importance of going on instruments when you lose visual reference. Reposition the sim on the runway with the same conditions and instructions. This time, from the instructor station I would fail the vacuum system at rotation. Unfortunately the sim had an unrealistic representation of this failure and the AI gyro would drift a lot faster than in a real airplane. The sim also had a pretty bright vacuum fail annunciator, so it usually wasn't a secret what was happening. Again, mostly students enter a spiral in whatever direction the AI gyro drifts. At this time we'd pause the sim and talk about the importance of identifying erroneous information and disregarding failed instruments. After that we'd get into the rest of the lesson.
If a student is weak on the basics at this stage the cracks really show up in the IFR, it's really important to emphasize that you're only allowed to make control inputs based on one instrument: The attitude indicator. With a few students at various stages of training it was clear that they weren't paying attention to the attitude indicator very much. I pulled out some post-it's and had them fly around (under the hood or in the sim) with the ASI VSI and altimeter covered up. As long as the airplane is reasonably well trimmed for cruise, over the course of a few minutes you might see a couple hundred feet altitude deviation but the ride gets a lot more comfortable as the student makes much more appropriate control inputs.
The only other thing that comes to mind right now for instrument flying is making sure the student knows what a movement of the attitude indicator translates into as far as movements of the horizon... So that they know for example that using ten degrees pitch to make an altitude correction is not cool.
Hopefully my next attempt at getting some sleep tonight is more successful than the last. Cheers.
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Cat Driver
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So you are suggesting that I just accept crap from some nameless poster here on this forum and then be politically ass kissing when he suggests using a teaching method that instills poor engine handling skills in new pilots?" Come on Cat... I think you could have made this point without belittling mcrit... There are lots of ways to produce yaw but it sounds like part of the point of this exercise is to demonstrate the way that power changes produce yaw. I never used to surge the engine the way mcrit describes and I don't think it's necessary, but it is important to link the idea of throttle movements with yaw control. "
Stan_Cooper I have come to the point in this flying training issue where I have decided that the real problem is there are so many poor Class 1's teaching others that the standard has slipped to a level that is unrecoverable.
We were discussing teaching PPL's and I do not see what instrument flying has to do with a PPL.
However I am unable to discuss how to teach instrument flying skills here in this forum for the simple reason that your ideas and mine are probably just to far apart.
Here is a suggestion, to make the so called "" Scan "" easier why not teach them how to fly straight and level and then do a 180 on the turn co-ordinator / turn and bank, airspeed indicator and altimiter? ( in the dim past when we didn't know jack shit about how to fly it was just called " needle ball and airspeed ")
That is how we were taught, never used a attitude indicator until I finished my PPL.
Then again what would I know about instrument flying?
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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Stan_Cooper
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I'm not suggesting any sort of ass kissing Cat. Your post was dripping with the phenomenon that mcrit described when he used the term 'signal to noise.' If I was mcrit reading your reply, I'm not sure that I would be objective enough to consider the message since it's enshrouded in such a confrontational tone.Cat Driver wrote:So you are suggesting that I just accept crap from some nameless poster here on this forum and then be politically ass kissing when he suggests using a teaching method that instills poor engine handling skills in new pilots?
Stan_Cooper I have come to the point in this flying training issue where I have decided that the real problem is there are so many poor Class 1's teaching others that the standard has slipped to a level that is unrecoverable.
We were discussing teaching PPL's and I do not see what instrument flying has to do with a PPL.
However I am unable to discuss how to teach instrument flying skills here in this forum for the simple reason that your ideas and mine are probably just to far apart.
Here is a suggestion, to make the so called "" Scan "" easier why not teach them how to fly straight and level and then do a 180 on the turn co-ordinator / turn and bank, airspeed indicator and altimiter? ( in the dim past when we didn't know jack shit about how to fly it was just called " needle ball and airspeed ")
That is how we were taught, never used a attitude indicator until I finished my PPL.
Then again what would I know about instrument flying?
Cat
Being concerned as you are about the standard, I'm sure you don't want such an important tip to get lost in the delivery.
I brought in instrument flying because I didn't think the thread was just about PPL. In any case, an intro to instrument flying is included in the PPL syllabus now.
Whether or not our ideas are far apart, I'm still interested to hear yours.
Atleast theres mention from mcrit to teach this. I had about 2-3 different instructors during the first stages of my ppl, NONE of which stressed the value and importance of this lesson. I have been complimented on my stick and rudder skills as a student, I feel aquired through getting a feel for the aircraft in different configurations, maneuvers etc. and learning on my own.
The fact that mcrit even brought it up is good to see (from a students point of view). Im willing to bet there are tonnes of instructors who dont even teach this. I think with the exception of one other instructor no one stressed the importance of co-ordinated turns like mcrit. You could turn around and say I've had some crappy instructors. Or like you mention Cat, you could say theres a problem with the way things are run in Canada. Atleast there are guys who still go over this with students.
Mcrits a stand up guy....schools need more like this. Do you still teach instructor ratings M?
Cheers
The fact that mcrit even brought it up is good to see (from a students point of view). Im willing to bet there are tonnes of instructors who dont even teach this. I think with the exception of one other instructor no one stressed the importance of co-ordinated turns like mcrit. You could turn around and say I've had some crappy instructors. Or like you mention Cat, you could say theres a problem with the way things are run in Canada. Atleast there are guys who still go over this with students.
Mcrits a stand up guy....schools need more like this. Do you still teach instructor ratings M?
Cheers
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Stan_Cooper
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bob sacamano
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Guys and girls,
I have a solution. Every flight school in Canada has to be shut down. There are no instructors that know how to teach.
Now, Cat Driver is the only person that's allowed to teach flying in this country, since, well let's face it, only he knows everything, and the rest know nothing.
By having cat as the only flight instructor in the country, using his cub ofcourse, this would make him lots of money, and it would decrease the amount of poorly trained pilots that are produced everyday in this country.
By decreasing the amount of pilots, we, the working pilots, will have better paying jobs, more options, and most importantly, real rampies.
p.s. mcrit, no matter what you say or suggest, it will be deemed wrong by cat, just accept it. You don't know how to fly dude, go back to being a stooge, we miss ya
p.p.s. I used the take off roll to show students the affect of power on yaw, it can be the first thing they are taught on flight #1 (attitudes and movements).
Peace.
p.p.p.s your hijack attempt has been foiled Cat. Now back to discussing the original idea of this thread.
I have a solution. Every flight school in Canada has to be shut down. There are no instructors that know how to teach.
Now, Cat Driver is the only person that's allowed to teach flying in this country, since, well let's face it, only he knows everything, and the rest know nothing.
By having cat as the only flight instructor in the country, using his cub ofcourse, this would make him lots of money, and it would decrease the amount of poorly trained pilots that are produced everyday in this country.
By decreasing the amount of pilots, we, the working pilots, will have better paying jobs, more options, and most importantly, real rampies.
p.s. mcrit, no matter what you say or suggest, it will be deemed wrong by cat, just accept it. You don't know how to fly dude, go back to being a stooge, we miss ya
p.p.s. I used the take off roll to show students the affect of power on yaw, it can be the first thing they are taught on flight #1 (attitudes and movements).
Peace.
p.p.p.s your hijack attempt has been foiled Cat. Now back to discussing the original idea of this thread.
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Cat Driver
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Well now that you have got all that off your chest Bob S. you tell me how many company owners would be happy to have a pilot flying their Navajo having been taught that quick large movements of throttles is A.O.K.?" p.s. mcrit, no matter what you say or suggest, it will be deemed wrong by cat, just accept it. You don't know how to fly dude, "
If I recall correctly there are still a few Navajo's out there, sort of the Cessna 150 trainer for pilots breaking into the twin engine flying business.
Or better yet, I wonder if Hedley would give mcrit his 421 to do quick large throttle changes during training?
Wasn't there something in the instructors rating thing that suggested that instructors teach students to do things the correct way right from the start?
Or is being a throttle jockey the correct way to handle aircraft engines?
"
" By having cat as the only flight instructor in the country, using his cub of course, "
So what is wrong with a Cub?
Having flown airplanes you may not have even seen pictures of I think I am able to decide what airplane I prefer to use.
The thread was leading by example, I am questioning what kind of an example an instructor sets by teaching a student to quickly move an airplanes throttle back and forth?p.p.p.s your hijack attempt has been foiled Cat. Now back to discussing the original idea of this thread
Or does being a class 1 mean you are above questioning?
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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Cat Driver
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2low:
I hope you realize that my only reason for even bothering to post here in the flight training forum is because I am amazed at some of the unorthodox things flight instructors teach, believing that they in their wisdom learned from other circuit astronauts are on the leading edge of knowlege.
This would be funny if it were not so sad.
Ever wonder where their mentors from TC are when all these new ideas get posted on a public forum?
Jeeses, I can't believe it, rapid throttle changes to produce yaw........
Thank God they are not flying anything I own.
Cat
I hope you realize that my only reason for even bothering to post here in the flight training forum is because I am amazed at some of the unorthodox things flight instructors teach, believing that they in their wisdom learned from other circuit astronauts are on the leading edge of knowlege.
This would be funny if it were not so sad.
Ever wonder where their mentors from TC are when all these new ideas get posted on a public forum?
Jeeses, I can't believe it, rapid throttle changes to produce yaw........
Thank God they are not flying anything I own.
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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bob sacamano
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Cat,
You having been around the world and have a wealth of experience, surely a young kid like me doesn't need to tell you about class. I don't mean instructor class rating.
You could reply to someone and not belittle them. Heck, maybe even tell them a better way of doing things?
Anyways, the hijacking of the post was the little not so private messaging back'n'forth, that's what I meant.
You're a lucky man for having flown airplanes of which I may have never heard of, my hat goes off to you.
You having been around the world and have a wealth of experience, surely a young kid like me doesn't need to tell you about class. I don't mean instructor class rating.
You could reply to someone and not belittle them. Heck, maybe even tell them a better way of doing things?
Anyways, the hijacking of the post was the little not so private messaging back'n'forth, that's what I meant.
You're a lucky man for having flown airplanes of which I may have never heard of, my hat goes off to you.
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Cat Driver
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Bob S...." You could reply to someone and not belittle them. Heck, maybe even tell them a better way of doing things? "
Maybe if you follow the threads you may understand why I get so pissed off, I get tired of being told by these instructors that my motivation for posting is due to my dislike for TC and the inference that I do not measure up to the standard of a Canadian flight instructor....well they have a point I hope my standard is better than that.
If this guy or girl or whoever they are are so sure that their methods of instructing are first class then let them defend what they post.
And I see no reason why I should give free advice to people who are already convinced they are right..
Anyhow I guess this group is not where I will gain any acceptance anyhow so if they need help their friendly knowledgeable TC flight training experts are just a phone call away.
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Well, I wasn't going to mention this, but if you want to induce yaw (that's yaw, not yawl, which is a sailboat...) one must only slowly bring the power on a tail dragger to take off...now, gee, why must I put more pressure on one rudder than the other? Could this be that yaw thing? Or, even easier, try an overshoot with your feet on the floor. Too easy? That's the best demo I can think of......and it wont phuque the expensive equipment...which YOU ain't paying for...give it a try?
But playing "yankey doodle" on the throttle is something only a person not paying the bills would attempt?
Many years ago, I too was an instructor. Yup. Even passed the exam, I did!
Never did I come across the "pumping throttle" method of demoing torque, er, um Yaw......got it confused with "torque steer" there.
It would be really nice if some of you could disagree on issues without demeaning each other?
I don't agree with much that's been said here...by either side. Some instructors really are not the "hot shit" they think they are. You all have instructor guides. Why not use them? Take a little dual with a tail wheel.
But playing "yankey doodle" on the throttle is something only a person not paying the bills would attempt?
Many years ago, I too was an instructor. Yup. Even passed the exam, I did!
Never did I come across the "pumping throttle" method of demoing torque, er, um Yaw......got it confused with "torque steer" there.
It would be really nice if some of you could disagree on issues without demeaning each other?
I don't agree with much that's been said here...by either side. Some instructors really are not the "hot shit" they think they are. You all have instructor guides. Why not use them? Take a little dual with a tail wheel.
I agree throttle jocking a fixed wing is not good.
i have flown with a few heli pilots and almost all of them ask " you never vary power ? "
From the .2 i had on the controls in a r22 power induced yaw is a way bigger deal in the fling wing department - I have never seen a heli guy with bad yaw control.
Aileron drag- I was taught to fly with the air cadets on gliders, aileron drag comprised a whole lesson, in my fixed wing training it was never even mentioned.
i have flown with a few heli pilots and almost all of them ask " you never vary power ? "
From the .2 i had on the controls in a r22 power induced yaw is a way bigger deal in the fling wing department - I have never seen a heli guy with bad yaw control.
Aileron drag- I was taught to fly with the air cadets on gliders, aileron drag comprised a whole lesson, in my fixed wing training it was never even mentioned.
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Cat Driver
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Mornin Doc, hows it hangin?
True, there is far to much time and bandwith wasted here exchanging personal insults instead of discussing the subject which is flight training.
The real problem is lack of one on one interaction and only the typed word to try and figure out the others real intent.
But that does not change the fact that the quality of instruction generally is substandard.
This is typical of what can be expected quality wise:
Here is a question for you Doc.
I can turn out a high level of skills and knowlege canditate for the PPL in 30 hours of flight training...but I would have to use my own methods and not be required to conform to the TC requirements.
So here is the question:
Why does it take about 60 to 80 hours to get a PPL the TC way?
True, there is far to much time and bandwith wasted here exchanging personal insults instead of discussing the subject which is flight training.
The real problem is lack of one on one interaction and only the typed word to try and figure out the others real intent.
But that does not change the fact that the quality of instruction generally is substandard.
This is typical of what can be expected quality wise:
How can so many instructors go through the training to teach flying, then pass the test by TC and we get this result?" Aileron drag- I was taught to fly with the air cadets on gliders, aileron drag comprised a whole lesson, in my fixed wing training it was never even mentioned. "
Here is a question for you Doc.
I can turn out a high level of skills and knowlege canditate for the PPL in 30 hours of flight training...but I would have to use my own methods and not be required to conform to the TC requirements.
So here is the question:
Why does it take about 60 to 80 hours to get a PPL the TC way?
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Oh, I think, if you had a student show up on a semi regular basis at pretty much any school. But, you toss in the fact the student takes a lesson every other week, shows up unprepared, and the weather is never "quite" good enough for solo, hence, more dual than needed in a lot of cases, and before you know it, 55-65 hours have gone by.
Then you add the "fudge" factor. The schools don't charge enough, and therefore, don't pay the instructor enough, so, if he's going to stay in K-D, he's got to get a little extra dual in there somewhere? Hence, the "winds are too strong/ceiling is too low, for solo......"
Yes, if you gave me a 22 year old "standard" student, with an IQ at least in double digits, with no plans for a couple of weeks, I could do him in 30 hours. One on one always works best.
My thoughts, at least....there is way more to this than poor instructing. The whole infrastructure is working against the student.
Then you add the "fudge" factor. The schools don't charge enough, and therefore, don't pay the instructor enough, so, if he's going to stay in K-D, he's got to get a little extra dual in there somewhere? Hence, the "winds are too strong/ceiling is too low, for solo......"
Yes, if you gave me a 22 year old "standard" student, with an IQ at least in double digits, with no plans for a couple of weeks, I could do him in 30 hours. One on one always works best.
My thoughts, at least....there is way more to this than poor instructing. The whole infrastructure is working against the student.
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Cat Driver
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Yup, and the students are paying thousands of dollars more than is needed." ....there is way more to this than poor instructing. The whole infrastructure is working against the student. "
My bet is it will get worse, not better.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
A conventional flight school, with their overhead, can NOT turn out pilots in 35 hours, because they can't afford to! They NEED students for 50-80 hours!
They don't charge anywhere near the amount needed to cover their costs.
Perhaps it should cost a lot more to turn out pilots.
We'd have better pilots.
We'd have less pilots...which is better.
We could pay instructors enough to actually hire "Pros".
I don't think the government (read tax payer) should be picking up the "lion's share" of training costs at Seneca College etc. You want to be a pilot? Get off your wallet! Stop picking mine! I can't afford you!
Smaller schools. Higher time instructors. Higher cost to students. More pay to instructors. This is the only way to stop the "puppy mills"!
They don't charge anywhere near the amount needed to cover their costs.
Perhaps it should cost a lot more to turn out pilots.
We'd have better pilots.
We'd have less pilots...which is better.
We could pay instructors enough to actually hire "Pros".
I don't think the government (read tax payer) should be picking up the "lion's share" of training costs at Seneca College etc. You want to be a pilot? Get off your wallet! Stop picking mine! I can't afford you!
Smaller schools. Higher time instructors. Higher cost to students. More pay to instructors. This is the only way to stop the "puppy mills"!
