Logging Level D Sim time for ATPL

bandit1 · Post by **bandit1** » Fri Jan 12, 2007 7:09 am

Can you log level D sim time and use it towards night XC for the ATPL?

fougapilot · Post by **fougapilot** » Fri Jan 12, 2007 7:28 am

No.

Sim tim does not count towards an ATPL, only towards a specific typr rating.

F

bamboo · Post by **bamboo** » Fri Jan 12, 2007 7:45 am

(d) 75 hours instrument flight time of which a maximum of 25 hours may have been acquired in approved instrument ground trainers and a maximum of 35 hours may have been acquired in helicopters. Instrument ground time shall not be applied toward the total 1500 hour flight time requirement.

heavymetal · Post by **heavymetal** » Fri Jan 12, 2007 4:04 pm

Aren't level D sims considered an airplane or is that only in the states?

fougapilot · Post by **fougapilot** » Fri Jan 12, 2007 4:12 pm

Level D sim are considered to be as close as an airplane as it comes. They do "replace" an airplane a specific circumstance (only one that I know of).
When one is being rated ona new type, one is required to take the airplane and go do touch-n-go before carrying any passengers. If the training was done in a level d (and certain level c sims) then the touch-n-go can be replaced with a 2hr training session which must contain a very specific listed of items that are mostly VFR operation (Ex.: Cross wind circuits, flapless landings, circlings...). Provided an operator has the specific authorisation, this extra training session is accepted by TC in lieu of an actual flight. Thus the misunderstanding that a level D is considered an airplane.

F

Ralliart · Post by **Ralliart** » Fri Jan 12, 2007 4:24 pm

Even if the D sim was valid, wouldn't it be cheaper just to rent a 150 for the night XC?

EyeOh · Post by **EyeOh** » Fri Jan 12, 2007 5:58 pm

Only if you're paying.

captainsweaty · Post by **captainsweaty** » Fri Jan 12, 2007 5:59 pm

Can anyone tell me what constitutes level "c" and "d" sims?

Dick · Post by **Dick** » Fri Jan 12, 2007 7:14 pm

Level D sim has daytime visuals, Level C does not.

fougapilot · Post by **fougapilot** » Fri Jan 12, 2007 7:46 pm

Basically, levels go from A to D with D eing the highest. All level have full motion.

A level A sim usually has a very limited visual system. The first sim I ever flew was a level A. It had 2 TV (one for each pilot) that refelcted in a mirror. The visual was quite decent even if it could only simulate night time. The computer abilities of the Level a sim prevent it from being accurately capable of simulating landings. Therefore, all flight manoeuvers can be trained except for landing which must be trained and checked in the actual airplane. Usually, a level A sim also only has a very limited number of airports where training can be conducted.

A level B sim has an improved visual usually up to 150deg of continous visual. The computer is also better allowing for landing training to actually count, but trainees must still do 3 take off and landings in the airplane before passengers can be carried. The number of airport, thus still limited, is increased. level B sim cannot simulate airborn hazards making difficult to do efficient TCAS training.

Level C and D are the same except that D can simulate daylight. C can only simulate dusk and dawn. Both have a visual ranging from 150des to 210deg. Both can be used to train everything that currently exist in the aviation world (thunderstorm, windshear, icing, tailplane stall...). Visuals are onlimited by how much an operator is willing to invest in training. Both can conduct acurate training to every airport on the planet. Not all airport have a exact visual representation, but all the runways are there along with the IFR installations. Most airport where specific training is required have very acurate visual representations available making the training very realistic.

F

Stan_Cooper · Post by **Stan_Cooper** » Fri Jan 12, 2007 9:13 pm

Here's some other stuff I dug up on simulator qualification that lays out standards that level D has to meet that others don't:

Realistic amplitude and frequency of cockpit noises and sounds, including precipitation, windshield wipers, static discharge and engine and airframe sounds. The sounds shall be coordinated with the weather representations.

Aerodynamic modelling for aeroplanes for which an original type certificate is issued after June 1980, including low altitude-level-flight ground effect, mach effect at high altitude, effects of airframe icing, normal and reverse dynamic thrust effect on control surfaces, aero-elastic representations and representations of non-linearities due to side slip based on aeroplane flight test data provided by the manufacturer.

Characteristic buffet motions that result from operation of the aeroplane (e.g. high speed buffet, extended landing gear, flaps, nose-wheel scuffing, stall) which can be sensed at the flight deck. The simulator shall be programmed and instrumented in such a manner that the characteristic buffet modes can be measured and compared to aeroplane data. Aeroplane data are also required to define flight deck motions when the aeroplane is subjected to atmospheric disturbances.

As mentioned, daylight visuals are also required.

Level 'C' sims are pretty good but level 'D' takes it to a higher level as far as the aerodynamic model as well.

bandit1 · Post by **bandit1** » Sat Jan 13, 2007 11:58 am

In the USA, level D sims are based on an actual aircraft and the instructors say that you can log it as actual flight time including total time.

So if this is true, would Transport Canada recognize the time for an ATPL?

Thanks

abeam pointe blanche · Sat Jan 13, 2007 12:03 pm

you can log up to 50hrs maximum of level D sim time toward your total time for an FAA ATP only...the requirement is though, that the time logged is part of a an FAA approved type rating course...in other words you cant just rent the sim with an instructor, you must be enrolled in an actual type rating course that is FAA approved with an FAA qualified instructor...if this is the case, you can use 50 hrs max only as actual total time.

cheers

bandit1 · Post by **bandit1** » Sat Jan 13, 2007 5:41 pm

you can log up to 50hrs maximum of level D sim time toward your total time for an FAA ATP only

So TC doesn't recognize that? I'm missing a few hours night time that I did in a level D sim. Would TC bust my balls for that?

fougapilot · Post by **fougapilot** » Sat Jan 13, 2007 10:11 pm

All level C and D sim are based on a specific aircraft. The day a sim is certified, it is compared to an airplane (specific serial number decided by the sim manufacturer) and must be 100% built in accordance with this airplane. After certification, both the airplane and the sim go their separate way. Meaning if the airplane owner decides to install a new avionics toy, the training facility doesn't need to follow suite.

There are many difference in the ways TC and the FAA view loging time. For example, in the FAA world the PIC is the pilot that is actually handeling the flight controls. So if you have a commercial pilot certificate and are flying a 747, every leg that you are flying pilot you log as PIC. However, since one neds an ATP to be Capt of a 747, the captain is also loging PIC... TC has a different view since only one individual can be the PIC, only one logs PIC.

If the FAA allows 50hrs of sim towards an ATP, that is new to me. But since I had 4000hrs when I did my US ATP, never bodered to read the fine prints.

I doupt TC will allow it. Plus if you are flying an airplane that requires you to train on a level D sim, just wait a few more weeks and you'll have the 50hrs in your logbook.

Cheers,

F

Logging Level D Sim time for ATPL

Logging Level D Sim time for ATPL

From the aeroplane and rotorcraft simulator manual