No Brakes wrote:
To the contrary my friend. You have the required time? APPLY. They offer you a salary that you don't like? Tell them and turn the job down.
If enough people that have the time apply AND turn down their offer, they will up the salary. If all they get is people who want the job at any cost (assholes) , they have no incentive to give a better salary. All they see is people who are willing to take the offer! It's just a question of making them realize, AS A GROUP, that we don't put up with this shit. By not saying anything AND NOT DOING ANYTHING, we're sending them the message that it's ok. They NEED to hear potential hires saying no to them.
I know I'm applying. Are YOU?
That is a seriously great idea. I say that we all or at least as many of us as are willing apply and when they call you for an interview ask about the pay. When you hear the dismal and meager figure tell them no thanks and that's why.
Apply regardless of how overqualified you are just to get the message across to VAL. I'll be sending my resume to them for sure and I encourage all of you to do the same. Great idea No Brakes! Let's affect change fellow Avcanadians!
This is a great idea people. It is time that we put the brakes on the decay of our profession. We are so fragmented that we are generally unable to present a cohesive argument against exploitation as we end up fighting each other. This is from ALPA and ACPA right on down to the dock(persons) who would sell their mother just to have the privilege of going along as a co-joe once in a while.
We are all pilots; educated, smart, willing to work and sacrifice and most of all committed to a profession that DEMANDs sacrifice, responsibility and accountability. We are betrayed by a government that listens to operators and inflicts absurd duty regulations, and over regulation upon us but leaves us accountable.
It does not matter that we like to fly or that we are fixed, float, rotary, airline, turboprop, instructor, north-south-east-west or in between, we all came from the same place – a desire to fly and we are not defined by anything other than that.
We should not have to buy a job, we should not work more duty hours than a truck driver or be paid less than a dispatcher or a flight attendant.
Don’t go to companies like Voyageur that require you to pay a bond and will screw you out of it if they think that you are going to leave, (and they know you will). Times are changing in our industry and even though the market is in our favour, operators like VAL are just riding it out til they are in control once again.
Do you want to hear irony? Apparently VAL imposes more restrictive limitations on its engines than the manufacturer requires, saving their mtce costs, but requires Air Taxi pilots (King Air) to work the ridiculous duty day limits that your government allows. It is a widely known fact that fully half of CFIT accidents occur in Air Taxi operations. Do the math. They have insurance for that.
In the spirit of Pay It Forward, look at the next pilot that you meet as a brother or sister and do not define them by what they have done or where they come from. We all have common ground and fewer than six degrees of separation in this business.
Safe flying.
Good point. That 37k is a result of the pilots association selling out the new people for their own security. A two tiered pay system is an expample of pilots not looking out for their own and focusing on self serving greed. At least AC doesn't demand a bond but the ridiculous starting salary is the same exploitive thing.
Its about more than money, a few years ago AC RJ f/o's on starting pay were below the governments official poverty level income for toronto.
Here's Air Canada. I think most of us know someone who has turned down their dream job at Canada's flagship carrier because of the starting pay. Why not go for the interview and tell them you can't afford to work for them? Air Canada Careers
(You have to create a username to apply.)
Wow...a post I'm actually happy to read about.
Also...I know someone that turned down Jazz recently because of the pay and I'm very proud of the person for doing it.
And just recently...I turned down a Multi-Pic direct entry turbine job because of the pay and a bond and I have no PIC turbine time.
Some may think I'm stupid...(low timers or people who sacrifice what little they have for an airplane) but I hope some may thank me...
I'm going to apply right now. And for the others that do...be proud of it.
newfycontrol....nothing stupid about turning down a job because of bonds, or pay. Bloody pity more don't follow your example! The only reason the pay is so poor, and bond are still out there, is there are pilots lining up to jump in! Bravo!
It's criminal that the nation's flag airline can pay, what would be a starvation wage in our larger cities!
This thread started out as a discussion about Voyageur airways and, I presume, their ilk. There seems to be many threads about this type of company and their place in the career path of most pilots.
In their view, I assume, it must be frustrating and expensive to train pilots, and see them leave in a short time and have to train new ones in order to stay in business. I am sure they have been burned by some who have quit immediately after training to essentially benefit a competitor.
Air Canada or West Jet on the other hand, know that they are, for many pilots, the ultimate job and therefore don’t feel obliged to try to attract qualified people. Although the starting pay, flat salary, probation, position grouping aspect is primarily a money saving effort, it could be said that if a pilot was willing to endure that, they must really want to work for the company. Experience requirements don’t seem to be the primary criterion for hiring anyway as with the massive training machine they have, they could train a monkey to fly. Why is it that the starting salary at some of the charter carriers is in the 60k range? Do they place more value on experience?
What is experience anyway? We are too focused on the number values and specifics of our compartmentalized industry. I suggest that experience is all in the mind and not in the hands and feet.
An example of this is an operator (float) to which I applied a couple of years ago. Although I had lots of multi IFR, and VFR time, I was not suitable as I did not have 500hr float or type(X) time. The operator preferred to let the dock(person) ride along as a copilot for 3 summers prior to being able to fly the aircraft. Who of us starts this career with that little expectation for career advancement?
This operator a couple of months later landed with the wheels down in a lake and promptly flipped over causing significant damage to his precious amphib. I was sorely tempted to call up and suggest that although I did not have the whole 500 hr on floats and time on type, I had yet to land gear up in a retractable gear aircraft. Does not all experience count in one way or another?
Why do so many operators shun instructor time, when instructors have to accomplish their job, and survive by using their ability to teach. This is much more difficult, risky and skill building than “driving” the ship themselves. Instructing should be the pinnacle of our profession where those with more experience pass on their knowledge.
The industry hiring is accelerating and the looming pilot shortage means that the way things are done is going to change. If operators like Voyageur want to build their business and survive, they need to create an environment that inspires people to participate, to feel like part of a team and feel like they have a potential career. They don’t, most can’t wait to get out as soon as their bond is up.
The training bond, for those foolish enough to pay it, (guilty as charged but never again) is a tool that allows them to count on having your sorry butt in a seat for a year or they get your money. Win-Win. Fixed cost.
It’s not going to work anymore. The pilot shortage is going to worsen as the huge number of boomer aged people retire. How about a carrot instead of a stick?
Do we have a ringer? That should tell you all you need to know about VAL.
I worked the ramp (and the mop) to earn money to get the license.
After that, the LICENSE is the ATTITUDE.
Got a tour of Voyageur the other day. One of our classes from Canadore went over. They seem really busy and desperate for employees. I for one would not work there. The higher ups seem like they are in it for themselves and within that 2 hours I saw an employee treated like shit for no reason. From 30 students I think they got 2 resumes. I hope this will send the message that if they want reliable workers that will stay there they will have to do better on the pay side of things.
