For all you Newbies wanting a good start

planedriver · Post by **planedriver** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 10:53 am

At my company right now we our looking for new hires to fill the spots that are now empty due to numours checkouts. These spots are ramp, dispatch and Flight attendent spot's. After 1-2 years (it's around 1.5 now) The company GIVES you a PPC on a Multi Turbine machine.

From there you can stay and grow or move on. Folks stick it out for a year, get some hours and make a decision. The company dosen't care if you leave then And dosent harras or make threats to you.

You have worked for that PPC and gained experience that you will need as you move up the ranks. They treat you very well compared to others. You get, a schedual, time off, and get meet great people.

YET when we talk to newbies all they see is 1-2 YEARS RAMP TIME !!!

Whats wrong with a bit of work for a solid Career start?

It took me and about 30 others (whom are all flying now) a year just in get in here when times were alot harder.

After reading so many of these posts It seems that alot of you guys are required to actully come up with $$$ before you start? Sheez.

PM me if you want the details.

Birdman · Post by **Birdman** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 3:27 pm

I dont think too many people mind putting in a little hard work on the ramp to get their career headed in the right direction. Lots of companies hire rampies to get the grunt work done for cheap labour in return for that all so precious first PPC. I personally think its a relatively fair system.

However, you can not blame anyone for being a little worried about making that decision to take a ramp job. No one in their right mind can predict what will happen in 2 years and pick a company based on current movement.

In my situation I dispatch crews for the same company that went from 1st day on the ramp to interview at the majors in 3 years. Yet my peers and I are approaching 2 years ramp time with that PPC still well outside arms length.

I'm not trying to put down ramp time or am bitter in any way. Just trying to say it is all a crap shoot and who really knows for sure what will happen. Sometimes I think the players on the world poker tour made better career choices then some of us.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 4:20 pm

"Lots of companies hire rampies to get the grunt work done for cheap labour in return for that all so precious first PPC. "

You guys were born about 25 years to late.

The PPC is an abomination because it is used as a lever to screw you over by both TC and some operators.

To bad you did not fly in the days when you were hired based on your abilities as determined by the chief pilot at what ever company you applied to.

As an example when I got my check out on the Twin Otter on floats I did several local training flights with the chief pilot and studied the P&W manual to write an exam on the engines , props and the airplane......

......the whole process took a couple of days and must have been sucessful as I never had any problems out thinking the thing while flying it.

Ahhh ..well I guess times change and things change, and I was lucky to have worked in the industry before it got to the situation you guys have to live with today.

27pilot · Post by **27pilot** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 7:18 pm

I think the problem is trust. The newbies can't trust the employer and can't trust the situation to unravel favourably. Too many guys have worked the ramp of 18-24 months and then the company went under, or the co. hired other people. If there was a written guarantee that 18 months on the ramp would be awarded with a PPC, I bet a lot of 250 h newbies would line up for a ramp job. However, flight time after ramp time served just comes down to luck of the draw. A few years ago I was offered 3 ramp jobs and I turned them down. All 3 of those companies went under within 18 months. I'm glad I turned to the oil patch and flew recreationally as my plan B. Who want want to work the ramp when the chances of being compensated fairly are so small?

xsbank · Post by **xsbank** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 8:48 pm

I don't agree with it - if you work the ramp, every flight with an empty leg or freight only should be yours. Working the ramp by itself is slave labour unless you are getting checked out. Anybody who is still on the ramp after a year is in the wrong industry.

No, I take that back - anyone who has been three months on the ramp and has not flown is working for the wrong company. Quit the buggers and get flying!

Adam Oke · Post by **Adam Oke** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 8:56 pm

xsbank wrote:I don't agree with it - if you work the ramp, every flight with an empty leg or freight only should be yours. Working the ramp by itself is slave labour unless you are getting checked out. Anybody who is still on the ramp after a year is in the wrong industry.

No, I take that back - anyone who has been three months on the ramp and has not flown is working for the wrong company. Quit the buggers and get flying!

Careful now....I got flamed last time I said somthing along those lines.

Kelowna Pilot · Post by **Kelowna Pilot** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 10:38 pm

Why not mix the Ramp with the Flying?

Work the ramp for 3 days, fly for 2.

Everyone alternates.

Everyone is happy.

As was mentioned, what the industry will look like 1.5 to 2 years from now no one has a clue, and if anyone tells you it's going to be a bed of roses, they're full of it because even the top analysists in the world will tell you no one really knows what can happen tomorrow.

Looking at the current economic data coming out of the US and eastern Canada, which isn't good, should give everyone pause.

Think twice before signing up for a 1 - 2 year stint on the ramp.

Consider instructing... at least you'll get time in your book.

But only instruct if you think you'll be a good instructor.

xsbank · Post by **xsbank** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 11:06 pm

If you are working at a job and you're not putting hours in your log, you are not a commercial pilot.

Harsh but true.

Companies want you to sell your labour to them so they can use it to make money. You are the only negotiable part of an air operation.

You.

In your long career in aviation, don't ever forget that. Fuel, tires, maintenance, computers radios...only you. Don't get sucked into a long term ramp job at low wages for a promise when you could be flying somewhere for (low) wages(!)

When times are bad and we have to eat, then do what you have to do to survive. Now, times are not like that. Tell the company to hire a lunchbucket or a high school student to do the labouring job that you don't want.

You make a commitment to aviation, not to rapacious owners.

Nark · Post by **Nark** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 7:24 am

Screw the ramp, come join me in the military.
I finished my degree without cost to me. (I paid about $50/class for books though, not bad when classes are $3-400/credit)

I've had a few offers that I had to turn down because of my obligation, however when I get out I guarantee I'll get hired over "you" because of my military record. (Proven leadership ability, able to function under stress, able to stick to a commitment etc...)

You can still fly on the weekends. Most bases in Canada are somewhat close to an airport. If you have a CFI rating, teach on the weekends.

Not counting the car I just bought, I’m also debt free. I get free dental, prescriptions and discounts everywhere I go. Not to bad to be 43 and have a full pension if I decide to stay in.

Temporarily leaving the aviation biz was the best decision I’ve made. Perhaps some of you should think it over before spend 2 years on the ramp, which may lead to a flying job.

desksgo · Post by **desksgo** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 7:43 am

Can you log everything as over 12,500lbs anytime you put your ego on an aircraft?

RC320 · Post by **RC320** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 8:06 am

27pilot wrote:I think the problem is trust. The newbies can't trust the employer and can't trust the situation to unravel favourably. Too many guys have worked the ramp of 18-24 months and then the company went under, or the co. hired other people. If there was a written guarantee that 18 months on the ramp would be awarded with a PPC, I bet a lot of 250 h newbies would line up for a ramp job. However, flight time after ramp time served just comes down to luck of the draw. A few years ago I was offered 3 ramp jobs and I turned them down. All 3 of those companies went under within 18 months. I'm glad I turned to the oil patch and flew recreationally as my plan B. Who want want to work the ramp when the chances of being compensated fairly are so small?

Between those who are pro-ground position b4 flightline and those who are anti, both sides bring up good points.

I personally ended up choosing the "work the gound first" route as I haven't had any luck whatsoever finding work flying and I finished my training 2 years ago. I chose this route with careful deliberation. I asked myself a number of questions and did my research. I even reached into my pocket to buy a ticket out to the town to see if its a place I can live comfortably and to physically see the company. Here are some of the things you should ask yourself before deciding to go this route.

What is the company like?
Are they safe? Good rep?
Do they have a good maintenance division and do they run efficiently and within CARS/ TC regs?
How long have they been around for?
What is the movement of flight crew like?
Where do people go from there?
What opportunities are there within the company from a flying perspective (experience on a variety of aircraft - especially turbine)
What is management like?

I then did a search on a few forums to see if I could dig up anything from current or former employees to see what they had to say. I couldnt wholey rely on that though because a former employees bitterness could have resulted from his/her own work ethic or what have you.

Anyways, after much consideration, I found the company was well established, been around for 30 years, has a good maintenance division, has well established safety system, good management (including the chief pilot), they comply within all regs and are VERY good about keeping its pilots duty times in check, respects its pilots wishes to go/no-go a flight (within good reason), is very good with rectifying maintenance issues with regards to its aircraft, has a good employee schedule (in my opinion), makes good business, will be around for years to come, and is a great opportunity to build time on both right and left seats on some great aircraft ranging from the Navajo to the B200, which is used as a medevac on behalf of Alberta Health and Wellness. Also the biggest attraction was the amount of movement going on. To date, I've been with the company for 2 months and have jumped already 4 spots in seniority. I have already witnessed 2 f/os make captain, 3 captains moving on to bigger aircraft as captains, and 5 ramp/ground workers make flightline. By the end of summer some of the experienced guys may end up leaving for bigger and better things. And to boot I get to work as a dispatcher, which is a great job to start out with and a good schedule that allows me to work a 2nd job, or go home at least once a month.

So, now you be the judge, would you turn that down if nothing else was going in your favor? I dont quite have $5-7000 to spend on an instructor rating, and I dont quite think Im ready for a 9 yr committment to the Air Force.

Yeah, I think I made the right decision. That is also because I did my research first. I could have worked the ramp at 3 other companies, but chose this one because I felt I'd go flightline sooner, get better experience, and generally live better working here than those other 3 carriers.

So to those who are considering working the ground, take that to heart and do some research. There are lots of these types of opportunities. And if you havent figured out who I work for yet and are interested in applying (yes we are hiring), feel free to PM me

Sorry for the long post

RC320

F-16 · Post by **F-16** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 8:37 am

There are lots of reasons not to do it.

A lot of companies use pilots to work the ramp and pay them less than a rampie - just for the big dream of flying!

Seen people lose big after working the ramp for two years for a company that either went bankrupt, or had a change in mgmt who decided to limit those promoted from the ramp.

In this current game of musical chairs, it would be far better to get that flying job now because if the music stops, where do you want to be, in the cockpit putting on hours for the next round? or slugging bags hoping for that promotion to a flying spot while the wait has gone to 3 years from 2.

Any new pilot that can get a flying job right away is FAR better off. After two years they will have 1000+ while the rampie will only be getting going. At the end of the day, you want your ATPL as soon as possible to get moving on to your goals, whatever they may be.

I'd rather volunteer with a non-profit gliding club, etc. on weekends while working at an office, another job for a summer, get up to 500 hours and move on to medevacs, etc.

At the end of the day, pilots should not just sell themselves short and assume that they have to work the ramp, pay for their PPC, etc. Sometimes it takes a lot of work and effort, but you can be flying right away at 250 hours and that's what I'd rather be doing.

F-16 · Post by **F-16** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 8:40 am

oops TP

xsbank · Post by **xsbank** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 10:50 am

F-16, you might as well give up because they're not listening to us - if they are not ambitious enough to find a flying job now, when times are good, working the ramp is a cop-out. This is my last word...

Rampies, if you've been on the ramp all last year and nobody is checking you out now, it won't happen - you will spend another summer on the ramp and you will miss the boat.

Ask yourselves this: "Do I really want to fly, or am I happy just to have a job and hang around real pilots?" If no, then get on with your lives and start a real career; if yes, then quit and go find a real job and start your life doing what you trained for(!!!).

A rampie is just as important to any operation as any other personnel, yet they are hard to find so companies will do anything to keep reliable ramp-workers - they will lie and hold out that great promise until you are ready to quit, then they either get someone else to do the work, someone not jaded yet, or they'll give in and train you.

Complacency will get you in the end.

2low · Post by **2low** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 1:15 pm

desksgo wrote:Can you log everything as over 12,500lbs anytime you put your ego on an aircraft?

LOL. I was thinking the very same thing. Love it.

F-16 · Post by **F-16** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 1:26 pm

xsbank - i agree, frustrating, sometimes like pounding my head against a brick wall.

I have to say, really frustrating to see some take ramp jobs where they live because they don't want to move away... Then again, makes it easier for those willing to take a chance and make a move.

RC320 · Post by **RC320** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 1:58 pm

xsbank wrote:F-16, you might as well give up because they're not listening to us - if they are not ambitious enough to find a flying job now, when times are good, working the ramp is a cop-out. This is my last word...

Rampies, if you've been on the ramp all last year and nobody is checking you out now, it won't happen - you will spend another summer on the ramp and you will miss the boat.

Ask yourselves this: "Do I really want to fly, or am I happy just to have a job and hang around real pilots?" If no, then get on with your lives and start a real career; if yes, then quit and go find a real job and start your life doing what you trained for(!!!).

A rampie is just as important to any operation as any other personnel, yet they are hard to find so companies will do anything to keep reliable ramp-workers - they will lie and hold out that great promise until you are ready to quit, then they either get someone else to do the work, someone not jaded yet, or they'll give in and train you.

Complacency will get you in the end.

You know, listening to this hasnt gotten me, or a lot of other low timers jobs. So I could do 1 of 3 things.

1) sit on my butt without a job and apply everywhere, road trip, etc..and wait with so much hope that someone out of the 100 places you've called, visited and followed up with, end up calling you for an interview

2) do the same as #1, but work somewhere to earn some money

3) do nothing at all

4) work on the ramp, working towards a flying position, and apply while working on that ramp. So that in a years time if nobody has called you for an interview, at least you've got a years experience/seniority that wont go to waste.

Tell me what you think makes sense here in this situation?

If it was as easy as you say, I'd be flying now.

But luck and timing have not been on my side, so I'd rather be more proactive and move to northern Alberta to work towards a flying position. If something comes up in between the time i start on the ground, to the time i start flying, then great, I can up and leave. At least I've gained some experience in 703/704 ops, I've earned money, even if its what little I make, and to me thats worth something. Thats what matters. It may not appeal to you, but just remember it appeals to a lot of others, myself included, and I wont short change myself on the decision I made and I dont think anyone has the right to do that to anyone.

Thats my 2 cents

planedriver · Post by **planedriver** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 5:21 pm

Interesting points all around, I'm not one for a little pissing contest though. I just wanted to see what you folks think out there at this present time.

For me and my friends it was just after 911. Things were a lot different. AC guys were back at there old jobs and companies saw 30 newbie’s for 1 ramp job.

I made my choice based on a lot of different things then. After I got my "ramp" job that I wanted, I saw a couple places that I almost went to close shop. It became apparent that stability was on top of getting hours super fast. As long as the company was there, the hours would be there too. After all, what’s 1-2 years in a 35 year career?

At the same time, I saw no one get laid off or let go where I worked. Call it nature of the biz and a very good company track record. Nothings to say it can't happen tomorrow. That was half the reason for going there. It may not be the fastest place to get the hours but it was far more stable than a lot of other places. Good for those who are a little older and can’t just up and leave.

Who knows what will happen? It's all a crap shoot. One thing is common between all of us. We like flying airplanes to the point of doing it for a living. I guess as long as you’re healthy and happy, and in a company you like, things aren't that bad.

Just for the Record. I moved 2400km th get my "ramp" job. I went and talk to 22 different companies across the country. After 1.7 years with the company I have my PPC on a nice twin turbine machine and it didn't cost me anything.

Kelowna Pilot · Post by **Kelowna Pilot** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 6:19 pm

Planedriver,

If you don't mind me asking, how much response did you get from the wannabes?

I think the problem for a lot of the small operators is they got spoilt for the longest time because there were thousands of pilots who would do anything just to get their foot in the door. You couldn't ask for better cheap labor than from a young pilot with stars in his eyes. No one else would do the job so well for such low wages.

However, over the last 6 years the number of wannabe pilots has greatly decreased because young people today are smarter than they were before, and they're releasing that in the era of $500,000 average house prices, that a career in aviation, while fun if you can actually get a job, just isn't financially practical unless you're one of the very few who make the very big bucks.

This is why you see very few Asians in aviation... Asians are too smart to become pilots.... Instead they become doctors and investment bankers... that's where the money is. An Asian won't spend $50,000 to try his luck at getting a job that pays in the mid teens and offers little stability. He'd look at you like you're nuts for even thinking such a thing.

(No, I'm not Asian before you say it).

So here's to Buffalo Joe's and all the other little operators that feed off cheap pilot labor...

You want a rampie, hire a rampie.
You want a pilot, hire a pilot.

asdfasd · Post by **asdfasd** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 6:24 pm

You all miss the point .. i mean got the point. . Jazz is hiring straight out of flight college. Pilots don’t need to work the ramp at this time. Just because we had to when we started, doesn’t mean anyone else should have to.

Pilots who take a ramp job or non flying job in this job climate are shooting themselves in the foot. Get the experience and time while its being offered. Get paid to work in your profession not as a rampie.

Kelowna Pilot · Post by **Kelowna Pilot** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 6:39 pm

On the other hand, though, is hiring really that good?

I've heard of a 1.5 to 2 year ramp wait at Perimeter, same thing with the places in the Knife.

Jazz hiring out of the colleges... Has this actually happened or is it an urban legend here?

If Jazz is actually taking pilots directly out of the schools, it will be very few in number, and it won't be because there is a lack of qualified pilots willing to work for Jazz.

It will be because Jazz wants long term, indentured cheap labor, and not many experienced guys can work for such low wages.

It's going to look like the Regionals down in the US.

planedriver · Post by **planedriver** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 7:20 pm

I made alot more on the "ramp" where I work than the starting pay at Jazz and other companies. My skedual was good to. If that puts a perspective on things.

So far Ive gotta 9 PM's. THats kinda why I posted this. I was curious to the response.

cheers

RC320 · Post by **RC320** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 7:43 pm

KFCpilot wrote:You all miss the point .. i mean got the point. . Jazz is hiring straight out of flight college. Pilots don’t need to work the ramp at this time. Just because we had to when we started, doesn’t mean anyone else should have to.

Pilots who take a ramp job or non flying job in this job climate are shooting themselves in the foot. Get the experience and time while its being offered. Get paid to work in your profession not as a rampie.

you should read my last post.
am i really shooting myself in the foot?
seems i was while i was waiting in hopes of being picked up by someone.

i wasted..yes..wasted..almost 2 years going that route.
at least this way im working towards something. it may take a year, but if i dont find a flying job within yet another year, then i havent lost that time because i was working towards one working on the ground.

ps ground does NOT = ramp

ppl mistake this for chuckin bags

dont

i'm a dispatcher. pretty effin cool job if you ask me. there are other opportunities on the ground. at the same time, when i go flightline, the experience i gained workin as a dispatcher will prove invaluable to me, making me that much of a better pilot.

wasted?

nope

capt_yaw · Post by **capt_yaw** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 9:22 pm

Jazz hiring from college doesn't mean jack. What, like 2 people out of a grad class of 30 get picked up because there dad is a captain there?

Seriosly, what are the 28 other grads left to do? Things are not black and white like some of the posts here assume.

planedriver · Post by **planedriver** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 9:44 pm

A question for XSBANK KFC pilot, and F-16.

Now that we know your views. Why don't you share with us where and what you're flying

, so that others with 250hrs can start out without having to work a ground position first.

Please leave out instructing as I never ment this post to be about the instruction option.

I always thought the piont of these forums were to help one another.