Zero flap landings...

[noisyride]

Recently, I've heard of a couple flight schools teaching their students to always do landings with minimal flap settings (either 10 degrees, or none at all ) Is this more common than I realize? What is the reasoning?

[KAG]

When I instructed 8 years ago, one school made us teach 0 flap landings untill the after the student was passed there solo circuits. I disagreed with my expansive 400 hours of experience under my belt. After awhile I started to see the benefit - less likely to hit hard on the nose, and less likely to forget to retract them during a touch and go. It's one less step the student has to think about during that confidence building stage. Problem is I found it took more work down the road to get them to use the flaps properly, especially retracting them.
The owner/CFI had bags of experience, but he also was more concerned with money (damage). Same reason we wern't allowed to teach our students to lean the engines out that school had a student destroy a brand new engine by flying it to lean.

Personally, I would teach partial flap landings from the onset. Teach them right the first time.

[Cat Driver]

Personally, I would teach partial flap landings from the onset. Teach them right the first time.

Why is this so hard for some instructors to understand??

[niwre]

Where has primacy gone? I remember being taught flap landings, also different situations call for different amount of flaps. It also helps with checklists as well. If you use flaps from the beginning and integrate the use into the checklist, the student will less likely to leave them down.

[Lommer]

If your students have to pull out a checklist in the middle of a touch-and-go then you have bigger problems than figuring out how to work the flaps...

[FlyYukon]

I was initally taught with flaps for landing - 20 degrees on the 150 / 172, and the 40 for short / soft landings.

when I went to Pro, most of the landings were flapless. I found it difficult at first getting used to do a flapless - or Normal - lasnding, when my 'normal' was 20 degrees flap. As a matter of fact, my first ever flapless landing was on my PPL flight test.

Back to beer!

FY

[Hedley]

For any aircraft, there will be a certain setting of flap which results in the lowest stall speed. This is usually around 15 or 20 degrees with most light trainers I have flown. More flap than that generally increases drag, with little increase in lift (ie little reduction in stall speed).

This is the "normal" flap that I teach for landing. Why? Because configuring the aircraft for the lowest possible stall speed should result in the slowest touchdown speed. This is not only easier on the tires and brakes, but is easier for the student (stuff happens slower) and there is less kinetic energy to dissipate.

More flap than "normal" flap is useful because it keeps the speed down during a steep descent over an obstable, but if it is deployed too early, can result in a highly power-dependent approach.

Less flap than "normal" flap may be useful during a crosswind.

I suppose if one was really bored, one could read the POH and do what it recommends

[niwre]

If your students have to pull out a checklist in the middle of a touch-and-go then you have bigger problems than figuring out how to work the flaps...

not saying they have to pull out checklist, just saying that they would as part of their procedure confirm flap setting

[Vancouver Pilot]

I've been practicing circuits for about 4 lessons, and we've been doing no-flap landings the whole time. Power-off landings actually. I'm having trouble deciding when to pull the power. Usually I do it when I'm too high and then have trouble loosing that altitude while maintaining the 70 knot glide speed that I'm holding. I think I would be better at power-on landings with flap....

[Hedley]

we've been doing no-flap landings

Please ask your instructor why you are intentionally configuring the aircraft with a higher stall speed (than you would with some flap).

Is there something advantageous to either you or the aircraft to touch down faster?

I know the internet is a stupid place to get advice, but FWIW I hold a Cdn ATPL, class 1 flight instructor & class 1 aerobatic instructor ratings, SFOC in respect of CAR 602.27(d), ICAS card valid for solo and formation airshow aerobatics, and I have been CFI at 3 different schools over 15 years. Oh yeah, BSc Engineering @ Queen's U, and patent holder in computer network protocol design.

have trouble loosing that altitude

Um ... sideslip? Slipping turn onto final?

[. ._]

Um ... sideslip? Slipping turn onto final?

C'mon Hedley. Easy on the sarcasm. The guy's just starting out.

With all of your instructional experience, you should know that no one is a perfect pilot like yourself.

-istp

[Hedley]

It's his instructor that I'm annoyed at - not him.

P.S. I ain't a "perfect pilot" - there is no such thing. I have merely been flying for one third of the history of powered human flight, and you'd have to be pretty goddamned stupid not to pick up some knowledge and qualifications during that length of time.

I am lucky enough to fly with (and learn from) guys that have been flying for over one half the history of powered human flight, even if they are despised by the regulator.

[. ._]

Thanks Hedley,

That clears things up. Never heard ya ever admit fault on this site before. I was beginning to think you were one of "those" pilots. Glad you're not.

Even with my minimal flight knowledge, I agree teaching only no flaps from the get go is a bad idea. Kinda like doing circuits in a retractable plane and not bringing the gear up.

It's easier and safer to get into good habits right away than to break bad habits later.

-istp

[Spokes]

I disagree. When I instructed at Courtenay, we initially taught flapless t&g's with no problem at all.

2 reasons.

1. The 172 POH says 'Normal' landings are done with 0-40 degrees of flaps. So flapless is ok.

2. The main one. we had electric flaps on all of our aircraft. Courtenays runway is too short to get the flaps up in a t&g. Just not enough time. So in the interest in getting the most training for a student at a critical time, flapless t&g's.

Of course later when we move to obstacle clearance and soft field langings we are stuck with full stop landings for all. But by then, the student is already somewhat profficient at landing the aircraft, so it is now simply landing differently. Plus more practice at obstacle clearance and soft field t/o's

my $.02

[Vancouver Pilot]

Ya, I'm not yet at that point where I can sideslip down to the runway, I've just started out. We're also practicing emergency landings with power off, so doing no-power landings is good practice for that. I'll be using flaps soon though, I trust the instructor. It may be a school-wide thing, not just an instructor thing.

My instructor is pretty good as far as I can tell. I'm not worried about the no-flap thing.

Thanks for your input guys.

[niss]

How long are these runways you guys are doing flapless T/O and Landings on?

[Hedley]

Some schools and instructors refuse to do any touch-and-go landing practice. I think that's a bit draconian. As long as you have lots of runway, touch and goes are ok.

However, with a short runway, touch and goes are a questionable practice. Dual with an experienced instructor, maybe. Definitely NOT a good idea for a low-time solo student. Sooner or later some tin is gonna get bent.

[niss]

Reason I ask is because our runway is 2100' and I have never departed or arrived with less than 10 Flaps. My partner TO and came in with 0. I have never gotten off that runway so late in my lifetime and if there was anything taller than an SUV on Anne st. off the end of 07 I am convinced we were going to hit it. We got on and off but damn near pissed myself in the process.

[Vancouver Pilot]

How long are these runways you guys are doing flapless T/O and Landings on?

Runway length:
12/30: 3755 x 100 feet
07/25: 5606 x 100 feet

Lots of room to do it safely. I think once I get good at these flapless landings, landings with them will be easier (lower speed, steeper approach...)

Peace.

[200hr Wonder]

Where I fly our of which is significantly less than 2000ft we initially teach flap less landings mainy in the event that a go around is called for power can be applied and you can be climbing a fair bit quicker than without, the point being that the end of the runway comes up pretty quick. We also have a marker at the center of the runway that is a definitive go no go point, if you are not firmly on the ground by the markings you go around. This being a safety issue.

As for a larger runway I use to teach that if the wind sock is dropping down so are you flaps, if the wind sock is trait out so are your flaps IE not deployed. This is of course only for normal landings.

[Spokes]

How long are these runways you guys are doing flapless T/O and Landings on?

Courtenay Airpark
13/31 1800x60

No problems doing touch and goes flapless. Of course this does not leave enough room to retract electric flaps for a t&g. So I would do full stops and then practice a performance t/o.

I found that doing a gliding approach to this runway made students very quickly get good at touching down on target and judging glide for forced approaches.

[PTP]

Flapless landings give a better feeling for the glide ratio of the AC. In theory this makes your forced approach skills better down the road. Plus it stops stupid students from taking off with full flaps, especially those who look like they are going to melt down if one more thing is added.