I graduated from a mom-and-pop type operation, at my own pace, and I made out fine. I spent less
College Program vs. Flight School
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, I WAS Birddog
College Program vs. Flight School
For those who either ARE working as a pilot now, or HAVE worked as a pilot in the past, at any level in this industry (but preferably those who have made it to a comfortable place
), what is your opinion of these two possible routes? What did you do? What do you recommend in THIS day and age in order to best nail the first job, and then eventually move on up through the ranks?
I graduated from a mom-and-pop type operation, at my own pace, and I made out fine. I spent less
, got hired
, have had a great career through some very difficult times
, and can't see my lack of an aviation diploma ever holding me back (I do, however have a University Degree-non aviation). I know what I would recommend, and why, but I'm probably a little biased for more than one reason... 
I graduated from a mom-and-pop type operation, at my own pace, and I made out fine. I spent less
Aviation- the hardest way possible to make an easy living!
"You can bomb the world to pieces, but you can't bomb it into peace!" Michael Franti- Spearhead
"Trust everyone, but cut the cards". My Grandma.
"You can bomb the world to pieces, but you can't bomb it into peace!" Michael Franti- Spearhead
"Trust everyone, but cut the cards". My Grandma.
It's not where you learnt to fly.. It's who you learnt to fly with..
The pro's with the flight college programs, you'll have a few more people to add to your email address, and if they get a break they can keep you in the loop and get you in or help you out...
The flight school route, you're a loner(more or less).
Penny wise, the flight school route as you mentioned and you can do it at your own pace which is a big plus..
But in the end, being in the right place at the right time or/and knowing the right people is what it boils down to.
The pro's with the flight college programs, you'll have a few more people to add to your email address, and if they get a break they can keep you in the loop and get you in or help you out...
The flight school route, you're a loner(more or less).
Penny wise, the flight school route as you mentioned and you can do it at your own pace which is a big plus..
But in the end, being in the right place at the right time or/and knowing the right people is what it boils down to.
I don't think it matters, depending on what your goal is. It definately does not matter if it's your first job, how many people are there out there with a commercial and a college program without a job? Probably just as many with a commercial without a diploma. It all depends how bad you want it, if it's bad enough you will get it.
Don't worry about a diploma/degree, the license is what employers are looking for....well more like experience. My high marks in school didn't get me sh*t! I thought being top of my class would guarantee me a job, boy was I wrong. I'm sure you have heard it said before....its not what you know, its who you know.
- LastSamurai
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IRBF is right,
In addition, some college programs do give all the knowledge necessary to write the ATPL exams...the only thing is that when you are done the program, you dont have enough hours to write the exams.
If I got to do it all over again, I would definately do the college program again...best 2 years of my life
G
Those degrees and diplomas that you get out of places like Seneca and CP will be useful when it comes time to fly at the airline level as they (airlines) usually require a post-secondary degree or diploma.its not what you know, its who you know.
In addition, some college programs do give all the knowledge necessary to write the ATPL exams...the only thing is that when you are done the program, you dont have enough hours to write the exams.
If I got to do it all over again, I would definately do the college program again...best 2 years of my life
G
I don't think there is one answer for everybody. It depends on the person.
How old are you? Have you spent time in the work force after high school or done post secondary education already? A little maturing one way or the other helps. If I would have went right into flight training out of high school, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have been ready for it. I needed to grow up a bit and learn how to learn.
If your right out of high school, a diploma may be good as it is more structured. It's also easier to get student financing in diploma programs.
If your more mature and good at self motivating a good ol' fashioned flight school may be fine, and a little more affordable. In the end it's the same thing on the piece of paper.
Having said that, beware. There are flight schools and flight schools, as well as college programs and college programs . Many people fail to do reasearch before they commit to a place where you are going to spend tens of thousands of dollars. Beware of any place that wants you to lay down 20, 30 or 40 grand up front. Even the most reputable of the colleges are only looking for a semester at a time. There may be an advantage of laying a few ground on account, maybe you get an extra 10% value at some places. Never give anyone the whole wad.
Too many people, especially younger folks, make up their mind they want to be pilots, get suckered in by some slick talkin' sales folks, and lay down the wad. If you happen to still be a student when the ship sails, and it will eventually in those operations, you are screwed. Ask some of the unhappy students at ATI in Toronto or ACA in Halifax a few years ago. Many out tens of thousands. Some people on this board have personal experience with operations like that.
There are some organizations that do both types of training, diploma and license by license. If you go in there license by license you still benefit from the fact that most people there are studying and progressing on a structured environment. They may have better resources. Do your research.
I went to MFC in Moncton. Most of their students now are diploma, I wasn't. Very professionally run. Should be, they have been training professional pilots going on 80 years now. I am biased, and I make no bones about it. There are other quality operations in other parts of the country. However, if someone came to me here in Toronto, and said my son or daughter wants to go be a professional pilot, right out of high school, first I would tell them to apply to Seneca and Sault or another reputable Diploma. If they don't get in, try getting out of the GTA, and go to a quality professional program, whether diploma or not. BTW, Moncton has a very low cost of living if you want to train full time.
I intructed at MFC and then did some instructing in the GTA. I could't believe some of things I've seen, where students changed schools in the GTA because they had been seriously screwed by other area flight schools. Some are completely crooked IMHO. More than once I've seen 100+ hours, haven't soloed. Or 150+ hours, no recommend for a private flight test, and these students were full time. If the student truly can't get it in that kind of time, do the honorable thing and tell them flying is not for them. Don't keep stealing from them. Some students who are not Canadaian citizens really get taken for a ride because the school will hold it over their head about the student visa and being able to stay in the country. They get held captive.
DO YOUR RESEARCH. Visit, talk to instructors, talk to students. If you know pilots, ask where they trained, or places they know have good programs. Don't lay the money down at the first place you walk into without comparing.
How old are you? Have you spent time in the work force after high school or done post secondary education already? A little maturing one way or the other helps. If I would have went right into flight training out of high school, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have been ready for it. I needed to grow up a bit and learn how to learn.
If your right out of high school, a diploma may be good as it is more structured. It's also easier to get student financing in diploma programs.
If your more mature and good at self motivating a good ol' fashioned flight school may be fine, and a little more affordable. In the end it's the same thing on the piece of paper.
Having said that, beware. There are flight schools and flight schools, as well as college programs and college programs . Many people fail to do reasearch before they commit to a place where you are going to spend tens of thousands of dollars. Beware of any place that wants you to lay down 20, 30 or 40 grand up front. Even the most reputable of the colleges are only looking for a semester at a time. There may be an advantage of laying a few ground on account, maybe you get an extra 10% value at some places. Never give anyone the whole wad.
Too many people, especially younger folks, make up their mind they want to be pilots, get suckered in by some slick talkin' sales folks, and lay down the wad. If you happen to still be a student when the ship sails, and it will eventually in those operations, you are screwed. Ask some of the unhappy students at ATI in Toronto or ACA in Halifax a few years ago. Many out tens of thousands. Some people on this board have personal experience with operations like that.
There are some organizations that do both types of training, diploma and license by license. If you go in there license by license you still benefit from the fact that most people there are studying and progressing on a structured environment. They may have better resources. Do your research.
I went to MFC in Moncton. Most of their students now are diploma, I wasn't. Very professionally run. Should be, they have been training professional pilots going on 80 years now. I am biased, and I make no bones about it. There are other quality operations in other parts of the country. However, if someone came to me here in Toronto, and said my son or daughter wants to go be a professional pilot, right out of high school, first I would tell them to apply to Seneca and Sault or another reputable Diploma. If they don't get in, try getting out of the GTA, and go to a quality professional program, whether diploma or not. BTW, Moncton has a very low cost of living if you want to train full time.
I intructed at MFC and then did some instructing in the GTA. I could't believe some of things I've seen, where students changed schools in the GTA because they had been seriously screwed by other area flight schools. Some are completely crooked IMHO. More than once I've seen 100+ hours, haven't soloed. Or 150+ hours, no recommend for a private flight test, and these students were full time. If the student truly can't get it in that kind of time, do the honorable thing and tell them flying is not for them. Don't keep stealing from them. Some students who are not Canadaian citizens really get taken for a ride because the school will hold it over their head about the student visa and being able to stay in the country. They get held captive.
DO YOUR RESEARCH. Visit, talk to instructors, talk to students. If you know pilots, ask where they trained, or places they know have good programs. Don't lay the money down at the first place you walk into without comparing.
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tailgunner
- Rank 7

- Posts: 501
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Obvoiusly people will have a bias that will filter through their responses, so take each with a grain of salt.
I earned a Bachelor's degree from university then started flying. I can say that my education was definately non- aviation. Has my degree helped me? I cannot say for sure, but it certainly has not hurt. I am currently a captain in a coporate flight dept. One must realize that education enhances ones personality and outlook. This can often lead to opportunities even though directly ones education does not help per se.The one advantage of earning a non- aviation degree or diploma is security. If aviation goes tits-up in general, ones aviation management diploma is quite irrelevent, however if one has an education degree, or a trade, one can make ends meet until they return to flying. I would caution new pilots against thinking an aviation collage will ensure an airline job. Your first flying job will be so far removed from the coporate or airline world that it will seem , looking back, humurous. Hauling drunk rig crews in a 206 accross frozen tundra is not very glamourous. So in short I would encourage new pilots to get the most realistic, practical, and relevant training for their FIRST job, as opposed to learning systems on A/C for their FIFTH job. Getting your first job is the toughest, showing a prospective employer that you know how to cold weather prep an a/c, properly load cargo, wash an aircraft, short /rough strip flying, and practicaly navigate is more important than being able to recite FMS EFIS data. My Two Cents
I earned a Bachelor's degree from university then started flying. I can say that my education was definately non- aviation. Has my degree helped me? I cannot say for sure, but it certainly has not hurt. I am currently a captain in a coporate flight dept. One must realize that education enhances ones personality and outlook. This can often lead to opportunities even though directly ones education does not help per se.The one advantage of earning a non- aviation degree or diploma is security. If aviation goes tits-up in general, ones aviation management diploma is quite irrelevent, however if one has an education degree, or a trade, one can make ends meet until they return to flying. I would caution new pilots against thinking an aviation collage will ensure an airline job. Your first flying job will be so far removed from the coporate or airline world that it will seem , looking back, humurous. Hauling drunk rig crews in a 206 accross frozen tundra is not very glamourous. So in short I would encourage new pilots to get the most realistic, practical, and relevant training for their FIRST job, as opposed to learning systems on A/C for their FIFTH job. Getting your first job is the toughest, showing a prospective employer that you know how to cold weather prep an a/c, properly load cargo, wash an aircraft, short /rough strip flying, and practicaly navigate is more important than being able to recite FMS EFIS data. My Two Cents
I vote College
This is a really good question. My answer would be the College route. I graduated from Confed and was hired right away. Mind you, I only had a CPL and a float endorsement, no multi or IFR. So in a way I did both to get where I am today. But I had the unique view of both worlds by doing it that way and I can honestly say I wish Confed had the multi IFR training. Though the IFR and multi training I did do was quite good. I really had to hunt to find and instructor with a good amount of time and expearience. Not to bash instructors, but, I felt I needed to have an instructor with that real industry knowledge.
The instructors at Confed have been in the indusrty for years and have gone from being line pilots to instructors, not the other way around that you find at most Private Schools. And I mean most. There are some schools that do have some great instructors. Overall, anyone can teach you how to fly a plane, but having someone who has been out there and done it already and can pass along the real time info will improve your advancement qualities far and above anyone at just a good private school.
Adanac
The instructors at Confed have been in the indusrty for years and have gone from being line pilots to instructors, not the other way around that you find at most Private Schools. And I mean most. There are some schools that do have some great instructors. Overall, anyone can teach you how to fly a plane, but having someone who has been out there and done it already and can pass along the real time info will improve your advancement qualities far and above anyone at just a good private school.
Adanac
Good day, eh!
I like the line 'get a degree to fall back on in case flying doesn't work out.'
The reality is that most degrees these days will not get you a half decent job either - any BA or BSC is not good for much. I got tired a long time ago of seing my friends and I struggle to find anything good after that much work, time and money.
Having a degree does not hurt, but the student loans do. I would do it again as I want to fly for the airlines and it is good to be educated, but anyone going into a BA or BSC program would be wise to figure out what they want first.
University is a blast, no question. I loved my flight training also - with both I made life long friends and have no regrets except that I wish after all that I could get a decent job!
I don't think it makes any difference either way where you get your licences - I know many from both avenues that quit. I also know that those still in the game from both are those that have put up with a lot of crap to get where they are. How bad you want it counts for everything.
Foto
The reality is that most degrees these days will not get you a half decent job either - any BA or BSC is not good for much. I got tired a long time ago of seing my friends and I struggle to find anything good after that much work, time and money.
Having a degree does not hurt, but the student loans do. I would do it again as I want to fly for the airlines and it is good to be educated, but anyone going into a BA or BSC program would be wise to figure out what they want first.
University is a blast, no question. I loved my flight training also - with both I made life long friends and have no regrets except that I wish after all that I could get a decent job!
I don't think it makes any difference either way where you get your licences - I know many from both avenues that quit. I also know that those still in the game from both are those that have put up with a lot of crap to get where they are. How bad you want it counts for everything.
Foto
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wallypilot
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I also agree that in terms of aviation employment, nobody cares if you have an aviation diploma or not. But, my advice would be to do the diploma program if you never plan to go to university. I did a degree and it was an awesome time. I had considered going to a college program for aviation after i had finished my degree, but another experienced pilot reccomended against it. If you find a good flight school, you will also meet a lot of people and get some good networking connections and make some good friends, and save yourself a tonne of cash. So, as has already been hinted at, it depends on what you want, how much cash you have, and what would work best for you. Keep in mind that some of the most accomplished pilots I know today have neither university or a aviation diploma. And I am not talking about the old dawgs....you can make it happen if you want it bad enough.
cheers
wp
cheers
wp
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I'd Rather Be Flying
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Who you know rather than what you know seems to have made the difference for me. Every flying job that I've had has been because I've known someone.
I have a two year aviation diploma and some other education, but it hasn't helped me get into a specific line of work. Just knowing someone and being in the right place at the right time is what worked for me.
And it is nice to know that you have something to fall back on if things don't go as planned. And having a degree or diploma or a trade proves that you can achieve other goals (which may look favourable in an employers mind).
Either way, you're learning the same skills, just in a different environment.
It's all up to you!

I have a two year aviation diploma and some other education, but it hasn't helped me get into a specific line of work. Just knowing someone and being in the right place at the right time is what worked for me.
And it is nice to know that you have something to fall back on if things don't go as planned. And having a degree or diploma or a trade proves that you can achieve other goals (which may look favourable in an employers mind).
Either way, you're learning the same skills, just in a different environment.
It's all up to you!
"Come down, your head is in the sky, feet on the ground...come down."
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scubasteve
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I agree with Foto...A degree these days seems useless when it comes to looking for work. I have a BA and start at the bottom of the barrel, labour or retail jobs etc. A degree these days seems to get you a cashier job. I also know a ton of people that dont end up in the field that they studied. Looking back now, I wouldn't have switched from my engineering degree into the aviation one. I would have stayed in engineering and done my flight training on the side. There is a lot of pressure on kids these days to go to university but unless you have loads of money I suggest to kids I know to travel for a year or go work in the mountains or do something fun or just work and decide afterwards what you want to do. My parents didn't want me to take time off but now i'm majorly in debt and am being held back from travelling or pursuing other education and further flight training.
I think its an individual choice - what works for one may not work for someone else.
I think its an individual choice - what works for one may not work for someone else.
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Keyser Soze
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Graduated with a poly sci degree 10 years ago. Of the 10 years of flying, 3 employers and not one (including the current corporate gig) has asked a tinkers damn (liked the quote from King Ralph yesterday) about my ejamacation. Can’t spell worth a damn either, but hell, I can debate political issues so well, you will come out convinced Madeline Albright is a hottie.
It is all about time and experience.
It is all about time and experience.
- slowstream
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I agree with Crazy8.................well said!
Get the degree & have that to fall back on if you ever need it. Spend more time shopping around for a good flight school and instructor............now that's time well spent!
Too bad that in this society there is so much emphasis placed on that degree that often is not worth the paper it’s printed on and yet tens of thousands of young people go into debt and extreme stress loads to get that degree.
Get the degree & have that to fall back on if you ever need it. Spend more time shopping around for a good flight school and instructor............now that's time well spent!
Too bad that in this society there is so much emphasis placed on that degree that often is not worth the paper it’s printed on and yet tens of thousands of young people go into debt and extreme stress loads to get that degree.
- corn-shoot
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Sounds just like aviation...slowstream wrote:tens of thousands of young people go into debt and extreme stress loads to get that degree.
The bare meat of this subject is that NO person in aviation that lacks a higher form of education will tell you to go to school. Then they'll tell you the story about the school of hard knocks and give you a bullshit "there I was at 5,000ft in a 152" story about how they saved the world with a loran.
There's nothing stopping you from dabbling in both sides...get an education and get dirty, then tell everyone where to stick it.
How many formal educations do you have Corn?corn-shoot wrote: The bare meat of this subject is that NO person in aviation that lacks a higher form of education will tell you to go to school.
Then they'll tell you the story about the school of hard knocks.
Don't matter much anyway. You'll never know.
Nothing you know is what is seems. The truth will always comes to light.
I'll be in my barn like a 'hick' if you need anything.
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scubasteve
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Just a note...Found out about an old friend from highschool the other day who was doing his training about the same time as myself. He may have been slightly ahead as he worked p/t as a baggage guy for air ontario and I was full time in a university program while training. Anyway he went on to instruct...finished that rating a little less than a year ahead of me and my program...and he's now a cojoe for medevacs up north. I postponed my training for various reasons and of my classmates, one is now in the RCAF and there are two others instructing at the school we trained at.
My friend does not have a degree or a diploma but is probably a little under a thousand hours ahead of the highest time pilot from my class at the university.
The school also makes a difference...a school like Airtids that takes graduates on to do charters and instruct is different from a smaller school that does not need to hire its students back and is different from a school that has connections to an a/c factory where instructors are also asked to ferry planes to the new owners etc.
This is one of those no right or wrong answer things I think
My friend does not have a degree or a diploma but is probably a little under a thousand hours ahead of the highest time pilot from my class at the university.
The school also makes a difference...a school like Airtids that takes graduates on to do charters and instruct is different from a smaller school that does not need to hire its students back and is different from a school that has connections to an a/c factory where instructors are also asked to ferry planes to the new owners etc.
This is one of those no right or wrong answer things I think
- corn-shoot
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I am Birddog wrote:How many formal educations do you have Corn?corn-shoot wrote: The bare meat of this subject is that NO person in aviation that lacks a higher form of education will tell you to go to school.
Then they'll tell you the story about the school of hard knocks.
Just enough to know how much you suck.
Then I left Harvard and went back to Har-veys.
corn-shoot wrote:I am Birddog wrote:How many formal educations do you have Corn?corn-shoot wrote: The bare meat of this subject is that NO person in aviation that lacks a higher form of education will tell you to go to school.
Then they'll tell you the story about the school of hard knocks.
Just enough to know how much you suck.
Then I left Harvard and went back to Har-veys.
whoa!!
Last edited by ... on Sat Sep 04, 2004 2:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- corn-shoot
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4 Languages, so people from all over the world can tell you what a chump you are...EQUAL OPPORTUNITY! That's super-terrific. 
Last edited by corn-shoot on Sat Sep 04, 2004 2:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
corn-shoot wrote:4 Languages, so people from all over the world can tell you what a chump you are...EQUAL OPPORTUNITY! That's super-terrific.
Yeah I know when I am being told off, or being asked for my wallet without getting stabbed.
By the way...you know I'm on dial up and can't download pictures without going through a pack of smokes. You're not playing fair. However I am used to it....being educated in the school of hard knocks and all...
You're lucky I'm not 'trohwing' you a beatn'
Last edited by ... on Sat Sep 04, 2004 2:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- corn-shoot
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