LOU 18

Matra Magic · Post by **Matra Magic** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 5:07 pm

Hi everybody,

first post on the forum...question for Jazz or AC riders. Do you know where I can find a copy of LOU18 (agreement between Jazz and Air Canada concerning employement). I asked to ALPA but they told me they are not involved in this agreement. All kind of information will be appreciated. Thanks in advance and fly safe.

Matra Magic

Lost in Saigon · Post by **Lost in Saigon** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 7:30 am

Check your PM (Personal Message) for some info......

Localizer · Post by **Localizer** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 12:28 pm

Hey,

Could you pass that info along to me aswell .. thanks ..

Cheers,

Loc

loadshed · Post by **loadshed** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 1:31 pm

and me?

thanks!

Lost in Saigon · Post by **Lost in Saigon** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 7:56 pm

LOU 18 - 1
LETTER OF UNDERSTANDING 18
between
AIR CANADA and the
AIR CANADA PILOTS ASSOCIATION
TRANSITION OF CONNECTOR PILOTS
TO THE AIR CANADA PILOTS SYSTEM SENIORITY LIST
It is hereby agreed that the opportunity of orderly advancement onto the Air Canada Pilots’System Seniority List shall be made available to all pilots employed by Air Canada Connector Airlines in accordance with the following provisions.

L18.01 It is acknowledged that the intent of this provision is for Air Canada to consider offering positions to pilots from the Air Canada Connector Airlines, while respecting the law and in particular the requirements of the Employment Equity Guidelines of the
Government of Canada.

L18.02 Pilots in L18.01 above will be offered position vacancies in order of seniority from the Combined Seniority List of Air Canada Connector Airlines. This list will be compiled subject to the Labour Laws of Canada.

L18.03 A pilot will be required:

L18.03.01 To meet the published basic requirements and minimum’s that relate to employment with Air Canada as a pilot and to successfully complete the assessment process.

L18.03.02 To meet the performance standards established by Air Canada that apply to newly hired pilots.

L18.04 Pursuant to an agreement between the Air Canada Connector Airline and CALPA, a pilot who fails to qualify for a position on the Air Canada Pilots’ System Seniority List may have the option of returning to the position held at the Air Canada Connector Airline.

L18.05 Subject to L18.03, a Connector pilot who applies for a vacancy offered in L18.01 whose Combined Connector Seniority entitles him to such a vacancy but whose induction is delayed on the basis of L18.05.01 or L18.05.02 below, may have a seniority number reserved for him on the Air Canada Pilots’ System Seniority List. The respective time served as a pilot with the Connector Airline will be treated as Air
Canada service (excluding pension) when he joins Air Canada.

L18.05.01 If the pilot has not been on the current equipment and/or status with the Connector Airline for 24 months Air Canada may delay his induction for up to the remainder of the 24 month period. Information required to verify the application of this provision will be provided in advance to the MEC Chairman, ACPA.

L18.05.02 Effective the date of ratification of this agreement, if a Management pilot at a Connector Airline is essential to that airline for operational reasons, Air Canada may delay his induction for up to six (6) months. This provision will be applied on a case by case basis with prior mutual agreement between Air Canada and the MEC Chairman, ACPA. Such agreement will not be unreasonably withheld.

LOU 18 - 2
L18.05.03 A Pilot joining Air Canada subsequent to the period of time specified in L18.05.01 and .02 above will be assigned a position, as determined by the CMSC, such that no Air Canada pilot will be displaced from his base nor furloughed as a result.

L18.06 A pilot transitioning to Air Canada from an Air Canada Connector Airline will be paid in accordance with Articles 3 through 10, as applicable.

L18.07 If there is a total sale or divestiture of any Air Canada Connector Airline, then the pilots of that carrier will be removed from the Combined Seniority List of Air Canada Connector Airlines, subject to the Laws of Canada.

IN WITNESS WHEREOF, the parties hereto have signed this Letter of Understanding this 1st
day of November, 1998.
FOR: AIR CANADA FOR: AIR CANADA PILOTS ASSOCIATION

LOU 18 - 3
PAY CLARIFICATION TO TRANSITION/SENIORITY AGREEMENT
TRANSITION AGREEMENT/LOU 18 CLARIFICATION
The following list is provided to clarify how an individual’s benefits and employment conditions are affected by Flight Staff Employment Date or the implementation of LOU18.05:

LOU 18.05 Implementation Date
Flight Staff Employment Date
1. Seniority number & date 1. Job (Position) selection (equip/base)
2. Flat Salary duration & amount 2. Air Canada insurance & benefit coverage
3. Formula pay commencement
4. New Hire Freeze expiry (Article 25.17)
5. Pass Service date & entitlement
6. Vacation entitlement (includes up to 4 yrs.
connector credit)
NOTE: This date will also govern all items listed under
L18.05 for any pilot not subject to L18.05.

Localizer · Post by **Localizer** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 8:08 am

Ok .. So with all of that said .. Why has the interview process for Jazz pilots pretty much come to a stop? I know they are still interviewing ... so?? ... any light to shed? Also ... are we suppose to just keep our profiles updated to get sequenced? Or do we have to fire a resume off to someone inparticular?

Cheers,

Loc

prop2jet · Post by **prop2jet** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 12:18 pm

Having contacted AC HR myself I can say they keep a running list of those who have applied through Jazz. If you had previously submitted your application directly to HR a year ago last may and kept your file up to date on the website, you are in the system. That being said, the system is far from perfect. Apparently it is paramount to check ones junk mail regularly as "invitations" are sent out via mass email... which is usally interpreted as junk by some mail servers.

Why the freeze... one can only surmize collusion at the senior mgmt level... not that they will ever admit to it or that it could ever be proven. I have heard through the grapevine that AC pays for the training costs. If this is actually the case than it is obvious they have no interest in paying twice. Under the new way of doing things, bean counters only think short term, not long term. I guess they are willing to accept the higher than normal attrition rate amongst the junior ranks as a cost of doing business.

jazzpilot · Post by **jazzpilot** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 10:31 pm

so does that mean we go straight into year 3 pay as well?

. . · Post by **. .** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 10:48 pm

prop2jet wrote: Apparently it is paramount to check ones junk mail regularly as "invitations" are sent out via mass email... which is usally interpreted as junk by some mail servers.

Oh man how bad would it suck to miss the call because the email got sorted as junk mail. I had never thought about that possibility before.

twinpratts · Post by **twinpratts** » Sat Aug 04, 2007 12:15 am

Yikes!

swampie · Post by **swampie** » Sun Aug 05, 2007 4:55 pm

Just remember a letter of understanding is NOT a legally binding document.

abflyguy · Post by **abflyguy** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 5:51 am

Jazz Pilot

What pay you go in at depends how long you have been at Jazz. If you have been here less than 2 years and get the call you get 2 year pay for a few months and then goe to third. It is very confusing but here is an example.

You had PPC at Jazz in Feb 2006 get a seniority number in May 2007 and of course released in Feb 2008.
From Feb 2008 until May 2008 you get 2nd year pay then third in May. The reasoning is that when you were hired at Mainline (given a number) you didn't have 2 years in, only 1.5 so you can't go to third year.
It is a very sneaky way to save money for a few months and follow the LOU and the contract to the letter.

Brick Head · Post by **Brick Head** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 7:10 am

Remember this LOU is an agreement between ACPA and Air Canada. It has nothing to do with ACE or Jazz. When it was written and amended Jazz was a wholly owned subsidiary of Air Canada. Be careful relying on the LOU as a guarantee. There are already new hires starting to ask about the validity of the LOU and the frozen numbers ahead of them. Does anyone remember back to the mid 90's when a similar agreement was grieved over validity and the frozen numbers were revoked.

It is hereby agreed that the opportunity of orderly advancement onto the Air Canada Pilots’System Seniority List shall be made available to all pilots employed by Air Canada Connector Airlines in accordance with the following provisions.

L18.07 If there is a total sale or divestiture of any Air Canada Connector Airline, then the pilots of that carrier will be removed from the Combined Seniority List of Air Canada Connector Airlines, subject to the Laws of Canada.

teacher · Post by **teacher** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 7:25 am

To those that have been contacted are all invites via email or do they call as well?

uncleron · Post by **uncleron** » Wed Aug 08, 2007 6:18 am

L18.07 If there is a total sale or divestiture of any Air Canada Connector Airline, then the pilots of that carrier will be removed from the Combined Seniority List of Air Canada Connector Airlines, subject to the Laws of Canada.

Was told by Air Canada that this provision means that the frozen pilot will be removed from the Jazz list ("of the Air Canada CONNECTOR airline) and the freeze will be over.

Someone also asked what happens if hiring slows down...AC told me that if they have 100 openings to fill they subtract the number of frozen pilots and hire the difference OTS. For example 100 openings -30 frozen pilots =70 hires OTS.

The only group that benefits from the freeze is Jazz.AC wants the pilots and the frozen guys don't want their career held back, but nothing we can do.

Stinky · Post by **Stinky** » Wed Aug 08, 2007 8:42 am

AC told me that if they have 100 openings to fill they subtract the number of frozen pilots and hire the difference OTS. For example 100 openings -30 frozen pilots =70 hires OTS.

Maybe that's why there's no more interviews for Jazz guys. AC only has a limited number of spots left and they don't want frozen guys clogging things up.

Brick Head · Post by **Brick Head** » Wed Aug 08, 2007 8:44 am

[quote="uncleron"]L18.07 If there is a total sale or divestiture of any Air Canada Connector Airline, then the pilots of that carrier will be removed from the Combined Seniority List of Air Canada Connector Airlines, subject to the Laws of Canada.

Was told by Air Canada that this provision means that the frozen pilot will be removed from the Jazz list ("of the Air Canada CONNECTOR airline) and the freeze will be over.

quote]

Don't get me wrong I don't think either AC or ACPA plan on changing the way the LOU is administered. That is not the problem. The problem is that the language is out of date for the present corporate structure.

You are correct. The original intent was to remove groups of pilots that were no longer Air Canada regional pilots from the hiring pool. This happened to NWT and would have happened to CRA had they been sold during CCAA. At the time all Air Canada regionals were a subsidiary of Air Canada.

But the LOU language uses the term "total sale or divestiture" as a trigger point for removing pilots from the hiring pool. So who is in the hiring pool? Jazz has not been a subsidiary of Air Canada the whole time hiring has been going on. So does the LOU even apply to Jazz pilots? Actually since Air Canada no longer owns any regionals does it apply to anyone. Since Air Canada doesn't own Jazz why doesn't CMA get the same treatment? What is the difference between the two? You get the idea.

All it will take is one grievance and then it will be left to an arbitrator to decide. As you know that turns it into a crap shoot. This same scenario over frozen numbers and an inadequate agreement resulted in an arbitration in the late 90's. That arbitration resulted in everyone being switched back to their actual DOH.

fasteddie · Post by **fasteddie** » Wed Aug 08, 2007 11:06 am

Remember that the ACPA membership does benefit from the LOU.

If during the last round of contract negots ACPA wanted to get rid of it, management would have wanted something in return. Conversely, each time was put in place / kept in place, Jazz Mgmnt, AC mgmnt, and/or ACE stood to gain so the ACPA membership probably gained something in another area.

In the give and take of negotiations, ACPA decided to keep this LOU.

ACPA is allowing us to be frozen, yet some of your membership have a problem with it. The time to address it is when the contract comes up for negotiations. You made the deal, live with it.

I can pretty much guarantee that every pilot at Jazz would prefer that going from Jazz to AC was like going from CMA to AC. Build a resume, get an interview pass/fail, go/stay.

The LOU 18 process is cumbersome and limiting. Not only would we have been in groundschools earlier, the selection process would have taken less time without the constraints of LOU 18.

If a CMA pilot and a Jazz pilot interview at AC on the same day and are successful with equal scores, it will take longer for the Jazz pilot to get a groundschool date than the CMA pilot. Then the Jazz pilot gets frozen. The OTS candidate wins every time.The Jazz pilots lose out, not the OTS people.[/i][i][/i]

The real losers are the people staying at Jazz that are behind frozen people, why should they get stuck whit a crappy schedule behind someone who should be at another company?

Brick Head · Post by **Brick Head** » Wed Aug 08, 2007 4:24 pm

Fasteddie,

You are preaching to the choir. I was down the same path as the frozen pilots at Jazz, only it was 12 years ago. Held back due to my apparent indispensability. Junior pilots went first and then grieved the fact that their former senior peers held numbers senior to them at AC. They won due to an inadequate agreement. I lost almost 200 numbers.

The CRA flow through ended with the same problems. We have CRA pilots that had protected numbers at Canadian side by each that are now over 1000 numbers apart on the AC list because of an arbitrary date a labour board official came up with.

From experience I have seen these agreements go south twice now. In all cases due to an unforeseen circumstance not addressed in the actual agreement.

The first agreement did not address going out of seniority.

The second did not contemplate a merger

Now we have a third that did not contemplate that Jazz one day would not be a subsidiary of AC.

And as you rightly pointed out no one at ACPA really cares to fix it which means it is only a matter of time before it is challenged.

Jaques Strappe · Post by **Jaques Strappe** » Wed Aug 08, 2007 7:42 pm

You are preaching to the choir. I was down the same path as the frozen pilots at Jazz, only it was 12 years ago. Held back due to my apparent indispensability. Junior pilots went first and then grieved the fact that their former senior peers held numbers senior to them at AC. They won due to an inadequate agreement. I lost almost 200 numbers.

Right on the money Brickhead

I was in the same sinking boat. The real winners at the time were the guys who were so junior, they were on furlough at the time and therefore ready to accept an immediate slot while the rest of us were held back. So been there, done that. As you say, Canadi>n had their own version of events with regard to CRA flow through and OTS.

At the moment, I fail to see how the ACPA membership benefits from the LOU. If anything, in its' present state, it creates a headache for both Management and ACPA.

Like it or not, LOU 18 has outlived its' intent. The landscape no longer supports it and I am sure we won't see it beyond 2009.

uncleron · Post by **uncleron** » Thu Aug 09, 2007 5:09 am

Jacques,

Agreed, it appears the only beneficiary of this LOU is Jazz management.
Hopefully if there are any changes they will grandfather those with reserved numbers that are frozen, but who knows what can happen.

Lost in Saigon · Post by **Lost in Saigon** » Thu Aug 09, 2007 6:06 am

Jazz pilots who go to AC on LOU 18 have better pay and vacation than OTS pilots.

Is that not a benefit?

Lost in Saigon · Post by **Lost in Saigon** » Thu Aug 09, 2007 6:12 am

[quote="uncleron"]L18.07 If there is a total sale or divestiture of any Air Canada Connector Airline, then the pilots of that carrier will be removed from the Combined Seniority List of Air Canada Connector Airlines, subject to the Laws of Canada.

quote]

I don't think that there has been a sale or divestiture here.

It is only a corporate restructuring and Jazz still falls under the ACE umbrella.

If not, then how do you explain that Jazz employees have the same pass priority as Air Canada employees?

Jaques Strappe · Post by **Jaques Strappe** » Thu Aug 09, 2007 7:35 am

Lost in Saigon wrote:Jazz pilots who go to AC on LOU 18 have better pay and vacation than OTS pilots.

Is that not a benefit?

I believe it was in regard to how does it benefit ACPA?

I don't think that there has been a sale or divestiture here.

It is only a corporate restructuring and Jazz still falls under the ACE umbrella.

If not, then how do you explain that Jazz employees have the same pass priority as Air Canada employees?

Milton has publicly stated that ACE is only a temporary holding company that will eventually disappear allowing various branches of the old Air Canada to function anatomically. When this happens, perhaps there will be a change in pass priorities, who knows?

I notice that the wording says "If there is a total sale or divestiture of any Air Canada Connector Airline" At this point, I think it is only a majority or minority stake, not a complete divestiture, depends on interpretation. The way I see it, Air Canada no longer has any ownership in Jazz anyway, it is ACE and an Income Trust fund that are the owners but I am just a pilot. I think this is why Brickhead has stated that all it will take is a grievance and an entire kettle of worms will be spilled on the tarmac.

WF9F · Post by **WF9F** » Thu Aug 09, 2007 5:16 pm

Jazz comes to AC making more than any OTS pilot. If you start on the same course as a JAZZ pilot both pilots should start equally.

Because of LOU 18 we now have JAZZ guys hired after OTS guys , flying the same aircraft type making double the money of the junior to them OTS pilots. How is that for a benefit.
LOU 18 needs to be changed or chucked.