Tailwheel aircraft on Vancouver Island

Grantmac · Post by **Grantmac** » Thu Aug 16, 2007 3:57 pm

Looking for a checkout and rental of a conventional geared aircraft on the Island. Looking to put in some hours in a plane that won't fly itself.
Cheers,
Grant

mdh · Post by **mdh** » Thu Aug 16, 2007 4:19 pm

Looking for a checkout and rental of a conventional geared aircraft on the Island. Looking to put in some hours in a plane that won't fly itself.
Cheers,
Grant

I'll second that request. I'm also looking to do some tailwheel time in the Victoria area....

(And just as a P.S. the Victoria Flying Club no longer offers tailwheel training and has decided to sell its Citabria due to lack of demand)

cheers, mdh

Grantmac · Post by **Grantmac** » Thu Aug 16, 2007 4:42 pm

I *heard* through the rumour mill that someone may have overstressed their Cit and they were selling it as is without the intention of getting a replacement.
I think I'll just have to go to one of the schools on the mainland and then eventually find someone who is interested in partnering in something old.
GrANT

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Fri Aug 17, 2007 6:24 am

IMHO, doing aerobatics in a Citabria is about as sensible as doing aerobatics in a 172. Yes, both of them will do it, but neither was designed to do so originally.

Grab a Citabria by the wingtip sometime, and give it a wiggle. Watch the sinusoidal wave propogate through the wooden spar from the tip to the fuselage and back again.

Now, a Super Decathlon is a horse of a different colour. An excellent tailwheel/aerobatic basic trainer.

North Shore · Post by **North Shore** » Fri Aug 17, 2007 3:40 pm

IMHO, doing aerobatics in a Citabria is about as sensible as doing aerobatics in a 172. Yes, both of them will do it, but neither was designed to do so originally.

I thought that was the whole idea behind Citabria, no? Airbatic spelled backwards and all?

Standing by to be corrected..

mdh · Post by **mdh** » Fri Aug 17, 2007 3:55 pm

Now, a Super Decathlon is a horse of a different colour. An excellent tailwheel/aerobatic basic trainer.

Forget about the aerobatics in a Citrabria, I would be happy with an old Piper Cub with a 65HP engine to do some old-fashioned tail wheel training on the island.

Looks like Boundary Bay might be the only solution.

cheers

Puba Maxwell · Post by **Puba Maxwell** » Tue Aug 28, 2007 4:45 pm

Boundary bay eh? Couldn't find anything there for tailwheel....

But i second the question, i want tailwheel rating and time. Can anyone help out? Im in Victoria BC.

Thanks

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Tue Aug 28, 2007 5:09 pm

Hmmm....

I sold my Aerobat but can still use it, it is at Delta Airpark right now....

.....but I may be talked into doing some tail wheel training after I get back from Greece if I'm not to busy with that program.

How much an hour is it worth?

One thing for sure there would be no solo due to the extra insurance cost.

A couple of questions:

What is the normal time schools sell tail wheel check outs for, how many hours do they suggest?

The ideal place to do them would be Port Alberni where there is no traffic and you can do one minute circuits so as to save flying time, not to mention hone your flying skills.

Puba Maxwell · Post by **Puba Maxwell** » Tue Aug 28, 2007 7:17 pm

I think 5 hours is the norm.

And if the prices aren't too restrictive, id love to take you up on that offer.

I've had a look around but cant find any prices for 152 aerobat rental yet....

Lommer · Post by **Lommer** » Tue Aug 28, 2007 9:53 pm

It took me about 10 hours in a citabria before I really felt comfortable soloing in it on pavement. I was felt ok on grass before that though. This was after doing a PPL and accumulating about 100h TT in nosedraggers, mostly 152s. I think the school reccomends 7-10 hours as the "normal" conversion time.

ProIFR in boundary bay has a citabria that they do tailwheel conversions on, and rent out both dual and solo once they've checked you out. I too would love to partner with someone on a cub or similar, I just don't have the funds nor the time to justify it.

Luscombe · Post by **Luscombe** » Wed Aug 29, 2007 6:06 am

Seems to me we used to do tailwheel checkouts on a Supercub which took a minimum of 10 hours before solo. This was mostly to keep the insurance company happy and in all honesty I found that I would be loathe to let someone take it solo in less time.

The club I was at found that even with a 10 hour minimum checkout, the Supercub seemed to spend more time in the shop being rebuilt due to a groundloop than it did on the line. It wasn't so much the dual instruction that was the problem, rather it was the solo rental. I can see why clubs that still have a tailwheel airplane offer it for "dual instruction only". It's unfortunate, but a reality. You don't have to be a superman to fly them, just a moderate pilot with moderate skills and a good checkout. Currency doesn't hurt either.

I hope you find one to rent, they sure are a lot of fun.

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Wed Aug 29, 2007 6:23 am

moderate pilot with moderate skills

A rare combination these days. Few pilots in Canada could aspire to that level of mediocrity. Recently a retired Air Canada captain I know of groundlooped a taildragger and bent the landing gear. I am sure he had proudly logged many tens of thousands of hours on jets, but his stick & rudder skills were sh1t.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Wed Aug 29, 2007 8:07 am

The club I was at found that even with a 10 hour minimum checkout, the Supercub seemed to spend more time in the shop being rebuilt due to a groundloop than it did on the line. It wasn't so much the dual instruction that was the problem, rather it was the solo rental.

This statement supports Hedley's observation.

The problem of pilots with poor hands and feet is systemic and getting worse.

The poor hands and feet skills level of so many pilots is because far to many in the instructor pool are not qualified to teach flying.

The reason there are so many inept instructors is very simple, here it is in someone elses words.

The biggest problem with the TC way of flight training is it does not create pilots with good decision making skills! They want the drool infested barf back. Which is why most checklists in FTU aircraft seem to be laminated I think.

With a mindset such as evident within TC there can only be one result....poor to dangerous flight instructors due to having to conform to a system run by morons.

There is no justification for ground looping a tail wheel airplane any more than there is justification for wheel barrowing a nose wheel airplane, it is just piss poor training..period.

When I learned to fly there were only tail wheel airplanes to learn on and in all the years I spent at the Toronto Island airport I can only recall one student ground looping an airplane and it was in a new Luscombe a school just brought on line.

The conversion from nose wheel to tail wheel can be done in a couple of hours if the instructor knows the subject and the student has average skills........
..
......but reading Hedleys comment I'm beginning to re think this.

mdh · Post by **mdh** » Wed Aug 29, 2007 9:23 am

I too would love to partner with someone on a cub or similar, I just don't have the funds nor the time to justify it.

That's the double shame. Even the minority of PPLs out there who want to improve their stick and rudder skills and who recognize that we have a lot to learn (such as myself) have to work extra hard nowadays to find a tailwheel airplane and an instructor who knows what they're doing.

I think it perpetuates the view that it's not worth the effort and that tailwheel planes are a "relic" of the past.

cheers, mdh

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Wed Aug 29, 2007 9:39 am

Hey! Don't go dissin Relic!

StudentPilot · Post by **StudentPilot** » Wed Aug 29, 2007 12:50 pm

Cat Driver wrote:The conversion from nose wheel to tail wheel can be done in a couple of hours if the instructor knows the subject and the student has average skills.

I think this is quite accurate, perhaps up to 5 hours depending on the conditions. I soloed a Citabria after 3.5 hours (in fairly calm conditions) and I am definitely not God's gift to aviation, just your average pilot.

I think decision making is an important factor in flying/learning to fly taildraggers. I know I had to turn my stop-and-go/touch-and-goes into bounce-and-goes numeous times on my first tailwheel solo for several different reasons. Also be sure you can handle the crosswind while you're still on the ground...or take an instructor along with you.

Puba Maxwell · Post by **Puba Maxwell** » Fri Aug 31, 2007 1:42 pm

Yeah, personally im pretty confident i can handle a taildragger. Getting over 30 hours on floats has also sharpened my rudder skills. My goal is to eventually get into firefighting, via Agricultural flying. So floats and taildraggers for me, all the way.