How long til the Kids are flying at Jazz?

Four1oh · Post by **Four1oh** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 2:12 pm

What's the timeline for the new college hotshots?

Inverted2 · Post by **Inverted2** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 2:47 pm

They're finishing up some night circuits this week and have a few more precautionary approaches to do. Off to the Sunglass Hut this weekend to get fitted for some Ray Ban Aviators and should be training by next week.

Four1oh · Post by **Four1oh** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 3:01 pm

cut loose before christmas then?

RB-211 · Post by **RB-211** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 3:27 pm

Heh guys, 200 hour wonders flying Dash 8's and CRJ's the world over. Canada does not and should not demand anything different.

I fly with skippers that STARTED their flying careers out of college on the following types. B747/777/767/757/737, A319/320/321, DC10, L10-11, BAC 111 blah blah blah. Some of them are the best pilots I have ever had the pleasure to share a flight deck with.

My guess is that if this all works out for Jazz, AC and WJ amongst others may follow suit. AC has 2500 hour turbo prop pilots that bid for and get the left seat not long after joining. Is this any different?

jjj · Post by **jjj** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 3:42 pm

I wonder how well the wonder pilots at Jazz will be treated. Are you guys gonna give them a hard time or just treat them fairly and professionally as you should your other peers?

skyhigh · Post by **skyhigh** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 5:33 pm

RB211, you're missing the point....other countries do it because they have a legitimate shortage of pilots....Jazz does it because they refuse to pay a decent wage so no one is applying. And why on earth would Westjet do this program!!! they have 2000 resumes on file and over 700 with internal recommends that exceed the min qualifications.

Inverted2 · Post by **Inverted2** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 5:38 pm

Apparently MC called Westjet and asked them if they would be interested in the program as well and they said no. He also asked if they would stop taking all of Jazz's pilots and they said no!

anyways · Post by **anyways** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 6:02 pm

Why is it that we have to refer to these people as 'wonder pilots' and 'hot shots', or speculate on their treatment because they applied for a job and had the wherewithal to land it? This is entirely hypocritical on our part, considering the fact that any one of us would have accepted said job had it been offered to us in that stage of our career. I suspect these comments are mostly being perpetuated by the arm chair quarterbacks among us.

Whether right or wrong, this policy has everything to do with the company in question, and nothing to do with the 'hot shots' being hired.

If your idea of a college grad is a RayBan wearing prima donna, then you haven't met too many of them, or you met one of the few that sadly give them that reputation. So how about we let up on the 'kids'?

Four1oh · Post by **Four1oh** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 6:37 pm

anyways wrote:Why is it that we have to refer to these people as 'wonder pilots' and 'hot shots', or speculate on their treatment because they applied for a job and had the wherewithal to land it? This is entirely hypocritical on our part, considering the fact that any one of us would have accepted said job had it been offered to us in that stage of our career. I suspect these comments are mostly being perpetuated by the arm chair quarterbacks among us.

Whether right or wrong, this policy has everything to do with the company in question, and nothing to do with the 'hot shots' being hired.

If your idea of a college grad is a RayBan wearing prima donna, then you haven't met too many of them, or you met one of the few that sadly give them that reputation. So how about we let up on the 'kids'?

Well, I can attest to 'some' of how the college guys act, being a college grad myself, I got to see some of these clowns first hand. I will say they were in the minority, as far as I'm concerned. But the little shots I take at these guys going to jazz are based on the few guys that are now posting in avcanada. One even named himself after a Top Gun character, and acts the part, so what can I say?

Traf · Post by **Traf** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 7:09 pm

Everyone keeps talking about countries doing it like they are comparing apples to apples. Not the case here. Other countries (apples) have programs designed to train and educate the cadet extensively before ever flying the line. You wanna know what Jazz is doing? Basically nothing more than an experienced pilots course before turning them loose. There might be a little extra line indoc and a couple of weeks of G/S but that is it.

They are playing the cross your fingers safety game and expecting regualr line pilots to act as instructors to what is essentially an unqualified pilot.

MC has since bailed back to AC and will never have to fly with these guys. I can only hope that he has to deadhead in the near future and has to sit in the back of a dash with the product of his cheap bastard program at the controls!

highlander · Post by **highlander** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 7:33 pm

The only problem I have is that Jazz claims that they can't find anyone. But there are still PFO's going out to some pretty good/qualified people.

bcflyer · Post by **bcflyer** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 7:40 pm

One thing that alot of people seem to overlook when mentioning the ab initio programs of other major airlines is that, for the most part, the cadets start off as cruise pilots. They sit in the back for T/O and landing and will likely not even touch the controls below 10,000 for quite some time. Again as many have mentioned already, its apples and oranges...

flyincanuck · Post by **flyincanuck** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 10:15 pm

anyways wrote:Why is it that we have to refer to these people as 'wonder pilots' and 'hot shots'

Because its just too easy when comments such as this one are published in the National Post:

Air Canada Jazz to hire pilots from school
Tom Blackwell, National Post
Published: Sunday, August 26, 2007

...There's a whole bunch of us going in there with very minimal flight time. Is that going to pose a big problem? But we kind of make up for lack of experience with personal skills, management skills, and we're pretty adaptable."

!!!!!!!!!!!!

Inverted2 · Post by **Inverted2** » Tue Sep 11, 2007 3:34 am

You know, like nunchuck skills, bowhunting skills, computer hacking skills... Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills.

My Name is Earl · Post by **My Name is Earl** » Tue Sep 11, 2007 5:54 am

The best part about the PFO is the line of shit they feed you (a 3000 hour turbo prop captain who has been in the "workforce" for about 10 years) is that they have candidates whose "experiences" and "qualifications" are more suited to the job.
RRRRIght

RB-211 · Post by **RB-211** » Tue Sep 11, 2007 2:14 pm

Most ab initio pilots are in fact FO's from day one. The last time i checked the Dash8/CRJ/EMJ/737/320 were not long range and required only two pilots. Most major carriers who take cadet pilots from day one no longer run their own colleges and contract the work out to private firms. Some of the top (5 or so) colleges in Canada provide the same level of training as these outfits. There is no reason WHATSOEVER that a 200 hour pilot, with solid training, a good attitude and above average skills can't do the job. Which brings me to the last point of that sentence. Maybe some of these kids could fly circles around you apples and oranges types.

Jaques Strappe · Post by **Jaques Strappe** » Tue Sep 11, 2007 3:01 pm

RB

Before you get all condoscending......oh sorry, too late for that.

I think what people are saying is that Jazz is not interested in hiring and qualifying a "quality" pilot. They are only interested in filling a seat with as little cost possible.

As you say, there are some fine Cadet programs out there that provide a "quality" pilot at the end of the training. Unfortunately,I don't think this is it. This is simply a preview of what is to come which is happening in the U.S already. Won't be long before the back cover of Canadian Aviation Magazine will have an ad explaining how the inevitable pilot shortage is upon us and for an extra 20 grand, you can secure your spot in the right seat of a Dash 8 or for 25 grand, a CRJ along with some bogus aviation degree.

This attempt doesn't even come close to the Cadet program of B.A or KLM or the like. I agree with you, those are top notch, however, we are no longer talking Apples and Oranges.

60N · Post by **60N** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 8:18 am

Question to anyone. Would you go to India and get on an Airbus or RJ with one of these 500 wonders behind the C/C? I thought not. I wouldn't either. I think it would be safer on the train over there and we all know how safe that is.

skyhigh · Post by **skyhigh** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 9:51 am

Well, its not just Indian Airlines my friend....those cadet programs are also at British Airways, Aer Lingus, Singapore Airlines, Cathay Pacific, Olympic Airways, Lufthansa, KLM, Qantas, AeroMexico, Air Asia, All Nippon, Japan Airlines, Ansett Australia, British Midland, Emirates, Scandinavian...and a whole slew of others that I can't think of right now....so you might as well boycott those airlines as well.....oh hell to be on the safe side, why even leave your home!! For god sakes, don't compare the Jazz watered down program to a real cadet program. It ain't the same.

Four1oh · Post by **Four1oh** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 10:34 am

it's funny, you list all those world class airlines... then throw in Jazz into that list. Doesn't fit. I guess that there's lots of jazz-type airlines in the US doing the same thing though.

complexintentions · Post by **complexintentions** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 12:44 pm

Jaques Strappe wrote:RB

Before you get all condoscending......oh sorry, too late for that. I think what people are saying is that Jazz is not interested in hiring and qualifying a "quality" pilot. They are only interested in filling a seat with as little cost possible.

As you say, there are some fine Cadet programs out there that provide a "quality" pilot at the end of the training. Unfortunately,I don't think this is it. This is simply a preview of what is to come which is happening in the U.S already. Won't be long before the back cover of Canadian Aviation Magazine will have an ad explaining how the inevitable pilot shortage is upon us and for an extra 20 grand, you can secure your spot in the right seat of a Dash 8 or for 25 grand, a CRJ along with some bogus aviation degree.

This attempt doesn't even come close to the Cadet program of B.A or KLM or the like. I agree with you, those are top notch, however, we are no longer talking Apples and Oranges.

heheh fantastic post. If RB211 is willing to concede that Seneca College = BA/SIN/EK cadet programs then he has a point. Otherwise...uhh..notsomuch. As far as being condescending, try not to hold it against him. It's bred into the Nigels - they literally can't help it.

Chuck D · Post by **Chuck D** » Thu Sep 13, 2007 10:31 am

Most of the 200 hour "wonder" pilots in Europe don't graduate from the big KLM and Lufthansa type flight colleges. They go to a flying school get their PPL, CPL, Multi IFR and write the exams and go applying for jobs. Much like what most Canadian pilots do.

Four1oh · Post by **Four1oh** » Thu Sep 13, 2007 3:10 pm

sooo, anyhow, back on thread, I was just wondering when they'd be online.

wallypilot · Post by **wallypilot** » Thu Sep 13, 2007 4:06 pm

. D wrote:Most of the 200 hour "wonder" pilots in Europe don't graduate from the big KLM and Lufthansa type flight colleges. They go to a flying school get their PPL, CPL, Multi IFR and write the exams and go applying for jobs. Much like what most Canadian pilots do.

That's true, except for the fact that the JAA ATPL gets them into the airline mentality from day one. Then, with the MCC training, all frozen ATPL pilots have much more airline "experience" (by experience, i mean a couple dozen hours in a level b or c type sim....king air 200, dash 8, something like that) than canadian 250 hr pilots. Not discrediting Canuck pilots here by any means, it's just different over there, even if you go and do it on your own.

The whole system there is driven by demand for airline pilots. that isn't so here. even though there is the sucking sound from the top at AC, a majority of pilots never go that route and end up flying floats, bush, medevac, corporate, remote sensing, etc, after years and years of doing everything but airline flying. Europe is mostly airline flying, some corporate, and a tiny bit of other stuff.

just my .02

otherwise, yes, back to the main topic...what's going on with the new college folks?

RB-211 · Post by **RB-211** » Sat Sep 15, 2007 4:23 am

Strappe and all,

You guys are missing the point. First off if I seem condescending then I am sorry. Take your panties off and suck it up. Jazz hiring young pilots with low time to save money? An airline that struggles to make a healthy operating profit year in and year out wants to make money. That is a new concept! This is a privately owned operation who has to answer to only one group of people. These are their SHAREHOLDERS.

As for the arguments about things in Canada being different than in other parts of the world I can so this is FALSE. The top colleges in Canada produce and excellent product which is why the likes of CMA/BOREK/BEARSKIN/PERMITER etc etc hire their pilots with 250 hours. Why would Jazz be any different? Why would AC or WJ for that matter be any different? The CAF will take pilots from these colleges at an advanced stage, why would it be any different in the civilian world? Now before any more people go off on the ‘Its different here in Canada’ BS and these schools are ‘Different to cadet programmes in Europe etc’ I will say this. I am very familiar with the standards of the pilots graduating from a number of colleges in Canada. Some of them have been looked at by training operations throughout the world to train cadet pilots for their MAJOR CARRIERS. I am also very familiar with the hiring practices of my current employer and the standard for which they are seeking. Graduates from top Canadian Colleges would be VERY COMPETETIVE (given the JAA licence was in hand) to join British Airways as an FO on the 320/737. Why do I say this you ask? The head of recruitment of the airline has told me over a cup a tea and a few laughs. The next time I see him I will just make sure that he meant what he said for all you skeptics.

Good luck to the young lads/ladies going to work for Jazz. You have done well to make your achievements thus far and will need to continue to work hard to succeed. Don’t let bitter, twisted and ignorant people ruin your experience and it will only be a matter of time before even the biggest critics of this plan see, you are there for a very good reason!