northern thunderbird flight into terrain?

air-heart · Post by **air-heart** » Sat Oct 06, 2007 7:49 pm

Hi there,
Looking for the TSB report that came out of the King Air accident near Squamish a few years ago with NTA. Tried looking on their web site but couldn't find it. Does anyone know where I could review the report? Thanks

SAR_YQQ · Post by **SAR_YQQ** » Sat Oct 06, 2007 9:22 pm

Here you go:

[quote=Cadors Number: 2005P1500 Reporting Region: Pacific]

Occurrence Information
Occurrence Type: Accident Occurrence Date: 2005/07/28
Occurrence Time: 1710 Z Day Or Night: day-time
Fatalities: 2 Injuries:

Canadian Aerodrome ID: Aerodrome Name:
Occurrence Location: Between Vancouver and Smithers Province: British Columbia
Country: CANADA World Area: North America

Reported By: NAV CANADA AOR Number: 58907-V1
TSB Class Of Investigation: 3 TSB Occurrence No.: A05P0189
Event Information
Missing aircraft
Collision with terrain
Aircraft Information
Flight #: NTA202
Aircraft Category: Aeroplane Country of Registration: CANADA
Make: BEECH Model: 200
Year Built: Amateur Built: No
Engine Make: Engine Model:
Engine Type: Turbo prop Gear Type: Land
Phase of Flight: Unknown Damage: Destroyed
Owner: NORTHERN THUNDERBIRD AIR INC Operator: NORTHERN THUNDERBIRD AIR INC. (11492)
Operator Type: Commercial

Detail Information
User Name: Binnema, Gerry
Date: 2005/07/29
Further Action Required: Yes
O.P.I.: System Safety
Narrative: Northern Thunderbird flight 202, a Beech Kingair 200, was a re-positioning flight from Vancouver to Smithers. It departed YVR on a VFR flight note ETA CYYD 1710Z but did not arrive. Comm search and audio review failed to locate aircraft. Last position on radar was 57 nm North of Vancouver. No further information as of 29/0200Z.

User Name: Pike, Lisa
Date: 2005/08/12
Further Action Required: Yes
O.P.I.: System Safety
Narrative: Update from the TSB: The Northern Thunderbird Air Beechcraft King Air 200 (NTA202 / C-FCGL) departed Vancouver at about 08:45 PDT on 28 July 2005 for a VFR flight to Smithers, BC, with a crew of 2 on board. The aircraft did not arrive at destination and a search was commenced at 11:30 PDT. The aircraft was found on 30 Jul 2005. The crash site was on the side of a mountain, just below a saddle at about 3900 feet elevation, in an area of very high terrain. Both occupants were deceased. A post-crash fire destroyed most of the aircraft. [/quote]

co-joe · Post by **co-joe** » Sat Oct 06, 2007 11:00 pm

You're surprised that NT doesn't publish this report on their own website? That wouldn't be very good advertising.

app flap · Post by **app flap** » Sun Oct 07, 2007 12:45 am

sad to read, keep it real while keeping it safe this fall - we all know the weather gets sporty in an instant.

a wise man once told me: 'its better to have small balls an live to make fun of yourself, than to have big balls and disappear'

GilletteNorth · Post by **GilletteNorth** » Sun Oct 07, 2007 7:33 am

SAR_YQQ, in the report it says "further action required". Is that an administrative term for TSB doing follow-ups and issuing new regs etc? Or are they missing a phone number?

The report says the aircraft crashed "just below a saddle". Any info on weather conditions at the time in that region?

grimey · Post by **grimey** » Sun Oct 07, 2007 7:45 am

GilletteNorth wrote:SAR_YQQ, in the report it says "further action required". Is that an administrative term for TSB doing follow-ups and issuing new regs etc? Or are they missing a phone number?

It's just the CADORS report saying something has happened, the TSB's class 3 investigation report hasn't been released yet. It'll show up here when it's completed. That, or their webmaster is lazy:

http://tsb.gc.ca/en/reports/air/2005/index.asp

1900guy · Post by **1900guy** » Sun Oct 07, 2007 8:25 am

Wx was beautiful blue skies, sunny day.

Widow · Post by **Widow** » Sun Oct 07, 2007 10:57 am

It won't necessarily show up. Some reports are issued and never posted. If you make a request through the form at the bottom of this page ... http://www.tsb.gc.ca/en/common/contact_us.asp ... quoting the TSB number, they should send you a copy if it is finished. They may, alternately, tell you the investigation is not yet complete.

SAR_YQQ, in the report it says "further action required". Is that an administrative term for TSB doing follow-ups and issuing new regs etc? Or are they missing a phone number?

If I'm not mistaken, that means that TCCA needs to do "further action", since this is the CADORs report. As the accident was given a "Class 3" Occurance rating, a Minister's Observer should have been appointed on behalf of the Minister of Labour to follow up on any Labour Code/Aviation OH&S issues. There may also have been "administrative" anomolies or part problems which TC System Safety, etc. would need to investigate further.

200hr Wonder · Post by **200hr Wonder** » Sun Oct 07, 2007 11:16 am

Weather was sunny, not even a cloud to be seen. I was on the Squamish river rafting it on the 29th, the day after the crash and saw the Buffalo from Comox doing a search grid, very sad in day. I knew the FO from my time in flight school.

The last conclusion was that on the repositioning flight they where flying low in the mountains and either something broke or it was pilot error. The actual cause will never be known there was not much left of the plane to do an investigation on.

CD · Post by CD » Sun Oct 07, 2007 11:39 am

Widow wrote:It won't necessarily show up. Some reports are issued and never posted. If you make a request through the form at the bottom of this page ... http://www.tsb.gc.ca/en/common/contact_us.asp ... quoting the TSB number, they should send you a copy if it is finished.

The TSB Occurrence Number is A05P0189. According to the following document, the report was released in 2005/2006:

Annual Report to Parliament 2005-2006

ahramin · Post by **ahramin** » Sun Oct 07, 2007 8:35 pm

Holy crapper

I had not realized that they had finished reports that were not published on the tsb site. Going to request that one right away. Thanks CD.

Why wouldn't they publish them all on the site?

wrench turner · Post by **wrench turner** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 11:28 am

the pilot at the time of this accident was showing off to a new FO trying to "scare" him. This company was one of the worst for screwing arround and it happens all the way to the top. I have heard many horror stories from past and present pilots who worked there.This individual was bragging about doing this the few days before.He took an innocent life with his, all for a few kicks

There are no old bold pilots
There are good professional pilots who do their job safely and have a long rewarding career.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 11:48 am

If it is in fact true that this type of behavior is know about in any company that operates a commercial air service then there should be a full investigation into the management of such companies.

If it can be proven that the chief pilot was aware of such behavior and did nothing about it and there was an accident attributed to reckless operation of the airplane then the chief pilot should do jail time for failure to perform the duties he/she are responsible for.

pelmet · Post by **pelmet** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 2:31 pm

The report isn't public yet because it hasn't been translated into french yet. From what I remember of the report, there is no positive conclusion as to why they flew into a mountain on a nice day. You have to read between the lines or ask yourself...what the heck were they doing there?

fogghorn · Post by **fogghorn** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:51 pm

From what I hear, the cowboy mentality prior to the accident was fairly systemic around that outfit. That included buzz jobs, low flying etc. I was also told by a company employee that the accident aircraft had just come out of repair following a horrendous icing episode where it should have been written off. To bad it hadn't been, two lives may have been spared because nothing about the accident makes any sense. It seems very evident that the cp was not doing due diligence (otherwise why would the plane have been spotted flying over Squamish at 2000' going to Smithers), neither for that matter were any of the upper mgmt. Also, why was the aircraft reportedly more than 90 minutes overdue before even a comm search was started? As cat driver said, there should be a full investigation into this crash.

disengage · Post by **disengage** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 11:27 pm

this topic has come up once before about NTA about this particular incident and i believe it was around the same time last year. Words being repeated again.

v6g · Post by **v6g** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 7:31 am

Interesting to note that this thread has almost 2500 views but only 15 posts. Such a high views-to-posts ratio speaks volumes.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 7:46 am

Maybe the new expert on Avcanada can give us the facts on the reason this airplane was operated in the way it was. Where is diesel-10 when you need him?

diesel · Post by **diesel** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 7:53 am

I think the blame on this accident has to go right to the top. That place was an accident waiting to happen for a very long time and I'd be very surprised if anythng has really changed for the better.

dhc6driver · Post by **dhc6driver** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:07 am

So next time I fxxx up I'll blame the CP. If I die then I'll leave it up to you.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:55 am

This is what I was commenting on DHC6.

the pilot at the time of this accident was showing off to a new FO trying to "scare" him. This company was one of the worst for screwing arround and it happens all the way to the top. I have heard many horror stories from past and present pilots who worked there.This individual was bragging about doing this the few days before.He took an innocent life with his, all for a few kicks

The duties of a chief pilot are to ensure this type of culture does not exist in the company he/she is responsible for.

What exactly is wrong with that?

altiplano · Post by **altiplano** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:56 am

That place was an accident waiting to happen for a very long time and I'd be very surprised if anythng has really changed for the better.

BS-

NT Air is a good group flying in some of the most challenging stuff in the country.

I'm not making any comment on the circumstance of this accident - I don't know anything except it was tragic.

I knew Mike B and he was a quality guy. I've met their CP and general mngr and I known several others who have flown for NT Air in recent years and they are good people and a good operation by all accounts.

Widow · Post by **Widow** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:58 am

ahramin, if you happen to get a copy of that TSB report, would you be kind enough to share?

dhc6driver · Post by **dhc6driver** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 1:23 pm

I can just talk from personal experience. On empty legs flying in the mountains it nice to drop down and look at the scenery. I do it all the time . I also know of other pilots who like to buzz around low level whenever the opportunity presents itself. Is it unsafe, am I a daredevil? I don't think so. Am I risking the co-pilots life when I do go low level? Not anymore than what is encountered in our day to day operations. Am I risking the co-pilots life landing on a 400 ft. long piece of earth that looks like the dark side of the Moon and then taking off from it. Maybe, but we do it all the time. With 15 years flying Twin Otters I never once had a co-pilot tell me that he/she was not happy about being low. I know, that doesn't mean anything but what else do I have to go by. The only advice I can give to co-pilots is that if you are not comfortable with what is going on then you had better speak up. Not saying anything is a sign of approval.

As for the Chief Pilot how can he stop people that want to do some horsing around-especially when both crew are on the same page? Maybe check the flight recorders after each flight. I know borek has a flight tracker on every machine and they can look at exactly what you are doing (altitude, speed etc.)in real time and talk to you immediately via the sat phone. Perhaps the day is coming when all aircraft will have such devices. Until that day arrives, Happy Buzzing.

fogghorn · Post by **fogghorn** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 2:33 pm

Low level flying is a stupid practice, too many accidents attest to that.