Minimum Vectoring Altitudes (MVA) issued by ATC

[NewtonCentre]

We've long been told not to clear aircraft to MVAs when they are not on vectors. We (as controllers) have gotten around this by giving approaches early, and informing the pilot what the MVA is (ie cleared to CYLW for an RNAV RNP RWY 16 APP, MVA 8,300 until IGSOB). Other controlers have used the phraseology "Safe to 8,300 until IGSOB" or the equivalent. Our argument in these cases has been that we are not clearing aircraft to an MVA, we are just informing them of it...

We have just been told that we are no longer allowed to issue, clear, inform etc. any aircraft of a MVA unless they are actually being vectored. I am curious how/if this will affect pilots since we'll have to leave you at higher altitudes, even though we have lower ones published on our radar displays.

The argument has always been that if we issue an MVA, and there is a communication failure, that pilots don't know when they've reached the edge of a particular vectoring block, and wouldn't know when to climb.

To get around this, we could issue relevant sector (25nm safe) altitudes, however, though legal, this wouldn't solve the problem either. We could issue sector altitudes from the Salmon Arm approach plate, then a sector altitude from the vernon approach plate until you are within the sector altitude from the Kelowna approach plate (though not listed on your RNP approaches) - this would enable us to give you a lower altitude prior to the approach, but wouldn't solve the problem of what you would do in the event of a communication failure...

Any thoughts?
What would you (as pilots) think of being cleared to the 100 NM safe altitude of 12600 going into CYLW, then being given the approach with no further altitude instructions.

If we clear you to sector altitudes for airports that you are not going into (and wouldn't have those respective approach plates available) do you want us to tell you what minimum IFR altitude we're using? (ie. "maintain 9,000 CZAM sector altitude" - then two minutes later we could tell you that you are past the boundaries of CZAM sector altitude, but you are now within the sector altitude boundary of CYVK etc.)

Would you prefer that we actually vector you for each approach so that we can give you lower altitudes?

Obviously the easiest thing for us to do is to leave all aircraft at 12,600 (100 nm safe altitude) until clearing aircraft for the approach - I guess it's probably the safest solution too, but it doesn't seem like we'd be giving very good customer service...[/i]

[Captain Esq.]

How about clearing a guy direct to, using your example, direct IGSOB. Once the aircraft has established itself on a direct course to IGSOB, then reclearing it as follows, "Cleared to IGSOB for the RNP RWY 16 at Kelowna via radar vectors, fly present heading, maintain 8300 feet at pilot's discretion". That way the aircraft knows where they're going to end up, they're basically flying their direct track, though 'technically' they're under radar vectors, whereby they're allowed to decend lower by the only available means. I'm not ATC, but from my perspective, that would cover all the points in question. What do you think?

[wordstwice]

!

[jjj]

If you fly the ILS 16 into Kelowna via the transitions prior to WTMAN (Tosus or Humek I think???) there is no problem.

jjj

[Flightlevels]

I simply draw my 25 nm circle. It will leave you a little high if the controller fails to advise you of your safe altitude, but is made up easily. The last cleared altitude is usually 11000 I think, then just as you are approaching IGSOB the 25 nm ring gets you a little lower then of course once on the published segment you are golden for putting in field elevation.

[NewtonCentre]

Wordstwice: We can definately just clear you to the CYLW 100NM safe altitude of 12,600 and then the approach. The problem with this is that in nice weather, you might be level at 12,600 for quite a while and wanting to cancel IFR, but at 12,600 you aren't allowed to. The 100nm safe from Kamloops is 12,100 though and covers most of the area. Also, the 100nm safe altitude is from the ILS approach, there isn't a 100nm safe altitude published on the RNP approaches.

Flightlevels: We used to always clear aircraft to 8,300 approaching IGSOB or 11,000 approaching MATIP - which we're no longer allowed to. So the option is either to leave you at 12,600 until those points, or to clear you lower using other minimum IFR altitudes.

Captain Esq. : We could change our phraseology - which is probably what will happen. It would have to be like this "vectors for IGSOB, fly your present heading, maintain 8300, at IGSOB resume normal navigation" the problem being that your present heading may not take you to IGSOB if the wind starts acting up as you descend. Of course you could compensate and fly direct (which would be nice) but if you follow our clearance, you could end up either side of IGSOB by a few miles - also it would be hard for us to adjust your vector because we can only issue headings in multiples of 5 degrees, and that would probably be too much.

Most WJA pilots, when we issue an approach, ask us specifically what the minimum vectoring altitude is. Our guess is that it's because you don't want to stay at a higher altitude until the approach point...

Thanks for all the feedback - more feedback is still welcome.

[CCR]

The RNP for 16 requires us to be in VNAV PATH by LW564 for the IGSOB transition and LW516 for the MATIP transition. This means I have to cross those waypoints at their hard altitudes in the PATH mode. In both cases, the prior two waypoints are AT or ABOVE. As long as I can cross IGSOB at somewhere close to the 25nm MSA of 9700, I can manage the aircraft to meet the LW564 requirement. Once I cross IGSOB I set field in the MCP Altitude window and would use speed/drag to capture my VNAV path prior to the LW564. We'll have to see how these new restrictions on you affect us. If they do, I'm sure guys will file AQD reports to the company and someone on the WJ second floor will make some phone calls. The only alternative is to accept a vector to intercept the lateral path between IGSOB and LW564. This will get us down lower and then we can set the Field Elevation once on the path.

[Legacy]

The argument has always been that if we issue an MVA, and there is a communication failure, that pilots don't know when they've reached the edge of a particular vectoring block, and wouldn't know when to climb.

Shouldn't be a worry because in a comm failure the pilot is to climb to minimum safe altitude and that does not include a MRVA.

I guess our chart builders should extend IGSOP out another 10-20 miles in order to give us the time to descend.