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Will helicopters take over from floaters?
Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 7:51 am
by Landlocked
Just wondering what everyone's thoughts are on the future of float equipped aircraft. I know there will always be a use for them but I can't help but think between insurance and maintenance on aging aircraft, the helicopter may be a more versitile and less cost-prohibitive option? ie. would an old 185 be more or less expensive to operate than a newer rotary wing? (yes, I admit, I'm clueless so go easy on me
)
Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 9:34 am
by sky's the limit
The short answer is No.
The reason being, helicopters are much more expensive to run/hr than older FW float planes, they are also much more expensive to purchase new.
Take a Beaver for example. You can by one of those nice Kenmore ones from Seattle for under a Million still I think, someone may correct me there, but the comparable helicopter in terms of load capacity, say the Astar B2 is about 2 Million to purchase, and charters for about $1600-$2000/hr. These are of course very rough numbers off the top of my head. A 185 carries about 1000lbs, as does a Bell 206. The Bell is $1000/hr, not many 185's going out the door for that money.
The other thing bush planes have over helicopters in that application, is the ability to carry both freight and Pax. We sling most "gear" we carry, and you can't sling with Pax on board.
So, imho I wouldn't worry about the old bush planes going anywhere anytime soon. Helicopters are used for more specific jobs, planes bring the gear.
stl
Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 10:40 am
by ScudRunner
Choppers are always going to need fuel brought to them in remote locations to do there thing. Its just like STL says economics,
Always loved hearing an old chopper guy get asked by tourists "how much for a chopper ride"?
.50 Cents a Whop ............whop whop whop whop whop.
Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 10:53 am
by Cat Driver
You shouldn't suggest that fixed wing pilots try flying helicopters because there wouldn't be anyone wanting to fly fixed wing anymore.
Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 10:53 pm
by shimmydampner
Funny you should mention that. I've been thinking about converting to a fling wing license, just for the sake of something new and challenging. What kind of commitment (financial and time) would I be looking at? Any tips?
Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 11:51 pm
by husky
Well in BC, helicopters have nearly taken over...but I think the nature of operations in other parts of the country mean that floatplanes will still have a place there.
Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 2:05 am
by Highsea
Helicopters taking over in BC? I don't see that at all. Harbour Air is buying more Otters all the time, WCA added a twotter from back east and Tofino added a otter year or two ago. Helicopters are used for a very specific market in BC. I have to say like SLT said cost is the biggest thing with helicopters.
Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 4:29 am
by Driving Rain
Most of my bush time has been NWO, east and west coast of James and Hudsons Bays, Nunavut. About 35 years working in these parts. The helicopter has made many inroads.
Just looking at the MNR. When I started with them in 1981 1/2 of our initial attack was done with fixed wing. About 12 to 15 years ago all of our water bases for float planes were closed and all of our intial attack is now done with rotary wing. In fact by about 1987 100% was helicopter.
When I worked the mineral exploration stuff in Nunavut back in the mid 70's about 50% rotor and fixed wing. Those numbers have shifted to about 85% helicopter today.
The tourist trade will remain fixed wing dominant for a good while. Helicopters can't compete in the price per seat mile yet but givin time and new markets to capture helicopters are making inroads in the passenger and tourist trade too.
Look at the Canadian Forces. The search and rescue used to done with amphibs and mainly fixed wing. Now they still have a mix but it's mostly helicopters in my short time on this planet.
Don't hate me because I can't hover.
Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 9:58 pm
by husky
I realized after I posted that, it wasn't quite true. With the exception of the coastal transport industry, much of the flying WORK previously done by floats in BC is now done by helicopters. There will always be a place for the coastal float industry and of course transporting hunters points north.
Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 11:33 am
by Mr. North
How long will these bush planes fly for though? The beaver I flew this year turned 50, is it concievable to think it'll last another 50? Somehow I don't think so... What will happen when most of these birds are simply too old to fly? Will they enter reproduction or will something else come along to fit the bill?
Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 11:48 am
by CLguy
Here in the Maldives the helicopter was tried when the tourism industry was first taking off about 10 years ago. They also had Caravans and single Otters that were tried. There was a terrible crash on one of the first trips in the helicopters that killed everyone on board including the crew. Helicopters are now banned in the Maldives and there are 40 Twin Otters on floats flying out of here this season.
Answer to your question, no helicopters won't ever replace float planes!!
Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 1:24 pm
by Driving Rain
Couldn't you come up with a better aviatar than that, or are you just trying to show off your tan?
Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 8:36 pm
by shimmydampner
Mr. North wrote:How long will these bush planes fly for though? The beaver I flew this year turned 50, is it concievable to think it'll last another 50?
How many of the components critical to it's airworthiness were 50 years old?
How many completely crashed and wrecked Beavers, Otters etc. are still flying today?...............Lots.
Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 9:53 pm
by Widow
Been sitting on this article ... it seems to fit the bill here ...
Officials: Floatplanes can last forever with proper upkeep
Safety - The NTSB is investigating whether a broken strut resulted in a fatal crash in the Willamette
Tuesday, July 31, 2007
PETER ZUCKERMAN The Oregonian Staff
Although the Taylorcraft floatplane that crashed into the Willamette River Saturday near Willamette Falls was 66 years old, federal officials said maintenance is more important to aircraft safety than age.
Many floatplanes flying today were manufactured in the 1940s and '50s, and the aircraft will last forever if properly maintained, said Federal Aviation Administration spokesman Allen Kenitzer. "There's no reason to think a well-maintained older plane is dangerous," he said.
Commercial carriers used to fly planes several decades old, aviation experts noted, but that's less common now because better technology makes the newer planes cleaner and less expensive to operate.
*snip*
In 1994, state and federal authorities considered tightening regulations of seaplanes after two Portland-area canoeists were killed by a Piper Cub on the Willamette River. Wiley, the instructor who died in Saturday's crash, successfully lobbied against such regulations in Washington and Idaho, saying the new laws wouldn't actually make people safer.
Once the seaplanes have taken off, they fly about the same as wheeled planes, but tides, waves, obstacles and the lack of brakes make takeoffs and landings trickier, pilots said. Plus, seaplane pilots and inspectors must pay closer attention to the possibility of water corroding and weakening the plane's body.
The FAA doesn't specifically track crashes of seaplanes, and Windus said accidents with seaplanes caused by structural failures -- as appears to be the case in Saturday's crash -- occur less than once a year in the United States.
The number of seaplanes in Oregon isn't specifically tracked. In the 1920s, when airports were scarce and waterways available, such planes were more common, but now there are fewer than 1,000 in Oregon, said Harold Clark, field director of the Seaplane Pilots Association.
The Oregonian
Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 9:03 am
by J31
CLguy wrote:Here in the Maldives the helicopter was tried when the tourism industry was first taking off about 10 years ago. They also had Caravans and single Otters that were tried. There was a terrible crash on one of the first trips in the helicopters that killed everyone on board including the crew. Helicopters are now banned in the Maldives and there are 40 Twin Otters on floats flying out of here this season.
Answer to your question, no helicopters won't ever replace float planes!!
Actually helicopters were the first airborne inter island tourist transport in the Maldives. In the early 90’s Hummingbird Helicopters operated a Sikorsky 61 there for a bit which evolved into operations with Russian MI-8’s. Seagull Helicopters also jumped in with MI-8’s. Then a Danish group with help from Kenn Borek Air started Maldivian Air Taxi (MAT) operating Twin Otters.
The MI-8’s had some serious mechanical problems and had a couple of fatal crashes. The local aviation authority (DCA) soon banned the Russian machines from the Maldives.
The resorts wanted night time transfer capability so MAT brought in a Bell 212. Sadly the Canadian Bell 212 had a fatal crash on its first night time transfer and that has been the end of heli operations.
The Twin Otter on floats has been the most successful in the Maldives.
Re: Will helicopters take over from floaters?
Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 6:53 pm
by cessnafloatflyer
Couldn't you come up with a better aviatar than that, or are you just trying to show off your tan?
No shoes?? No jumping out onto the dock and pulling ropes! (Can you say slivers! Ouch!)
Re: Will helicopters take over from floaters?
Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 9:02 am
by CLguy
We don't have to worry about jumping out onto the dock and pulling ropes because there are people to do that for us!!!
Re: Will helicopters take over from floaters?
Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 11:57 am
by Driving Rain
CLguy wrote:We don't have to worry about jumping out onto the dock and pulling ropes because there are people to do that for us!!!
Really? Would you be so kind as to have your people call my people.
Re: Will helicopters take over from floaters?
Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 5:29 pm
by CLguy
Sure no problem!! I must caution you though, we still have to do up our own seatbelts but we are working on getting someone to do that for us as well!!!