SOWIND 301, LITTLE GRAND RAPIDS 10 YEARS ALREADY

[bobcaygeon]

http://www.tsb.gc.ca/en/reports/air/199 ... 7c0236.asp


It's been 10 years already

Still hoping for a miracle Steve

RIP

[sameasyou]

I was a previous employee at Sowind and knew the pax that died very well having flown them to ZGR and other places many times. I was also flying at the time of the accident(different company) and also happened to be at Big Sand Lake when the accident captain ran off the runway in very wet conditions. couple of weird coincidences. I will pray for the victims and their families today and may all RIP.

[xsbank]

I only read the precis to this report, but isn't the process supposed to be, fly to your destination, execute an approach to mins/DH, look to see if there is a runway environment suitable for landing; if not, execute the missed approach and then go to your alternate?

What part of this is so hard to understand?

Sad tale, for sure.

[wanderer]

What part of this is so hard to understand?

62 year old CP with 15,000 hours who knew that a company ho arrived 10 minutes earlier.

Should that have any impact on the bandit's crew's respect for adhering to SOPs? Not at all.

Do you think that those factors played a role in this accident?

Do you think that a lesson was learned by a great many aviators as a result of this accident? I do. I really do think that the industry is a safer one because of this tragic event.

[Cat Driver]

Reading the history of both pilots as outlined in that report is interesting.

[Doc]

Was a lesson learned? We're still ignoring minimums on a regular basis. As xsbank said, "Whats so hard to understand?"

[Cat Driver]

Do you think that those factors played a role in this accident?

Do you think that company culture had any role in this accident?

[Doc]

Cat, "company culture" is just another "warm, fuzzy" term. The guy driving went below limits and rolled it up in a ball. Everything else is an excuse.

PUSH PUSH PUSH PUSH PUSH.....are there any questions?

[planett]

I can only hope that there are proportionally fewer flights conducted this way now than 10 years ago. Unfortunately, all of these things still take place all over the north every day. The very same people who knew this crew, conduct operations in this fashion today. They won't have an accident because they "know where the towers are" they "know the area" they "know how low they can go" they "know the aircraft will outperform the manual" etc, etc...

I hope I'm wrong, but that accident is waiting to happen again, possibly to someone secure in the knowledge that their extra edge will protect them every time they try just a little bit harder.

[Cat Driver]

Cat, "company culture" is just another "warm, fuzzy" term. The guy driving went below limits and rolled it up in a ball. Everything else is an excuse.

Yes Doc I agree the word " culture " is just another feel good word...but the industry has been educated to accept these words...

However........it may not really be a culture but it sure seems like they had utter disregard for the legal way to do things...note both airplanes were from the same company.

After the aircraft had climbed back above the cloud layer, a second Sowind Air Ltd. aircraft, a PA31-350 Navajo, Flight 318, arrived in the vicinity of Little Grand Rapids, operating under VFR. The Navajo pilot reported that he flew over the airport from the southwest at a height of about 300 feet agl, turned, and made a successful landing on runway 18. He then advised the Bandeirante crew by radio that the visibility on final for runway 18 was two miles and that he was on the ground. The Navajo was clearly seen, by witnesses, over the lake to the south of the runway. The approach flown by the Navajo was described as west of the normal approach path to runway 36, but conforming to about the altitude usually observed.(4) The Navajo was observed flying over the runway at low level before turning for an approach to runway 18. One witness described the Navajo as appearing as a vague outline; another observer stated that the Navajo appeared to "pop out" over the runway.

[Cat Driver]

When you do something successfully 50 times, there's no reason to believe it won't work the 51st time. Simple as that.

Taking off 1000 pounds over gross did not help the situation either.

2) Community had been isolated for many days due to bad weather. There was enormous pressure to "get in" with supplies, etc, esp. since the 'ho made it in while being flown by a pilot with significantly less experience.

Pressure from who?

[planett]

Often pressure is self imposed. I have observed these characters operate at new jobs where there is no pressure to get in. They still operate as if they are "under the gun". Old habits die hard.

Inside sources tell me there was frequently pressure at this company, if not on this flight.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Old habits die hard

.

Which brings us full circle, pilots with these habits should be weeded out of the industry before the habits become ingrained and copied by their brethern in the business.

But that of course does not happen.

[Tak]

One definition of culture is ‘the beliefs, customs, practices, and social behavior of a particular nation or people’. All of these affect decision making.

Of course, ‘cockpit culture’ is just as fascinating a topic.

I was a corporate culture instructor for our company. Classes went from 08:00 to 22:00. Believe me, it was most interesting to see how quickly some new cultural ‘norms’ appeared after a few stressful 14 hour days. (Hey, that sounds like aviation!!!)

The Tenerife incident with KLM and Pan Am as well the more successful Sioux City incident with Captain Al Haynes were included in our studies.

Anyways, I took my instructor preparation course from Dr. Dianne Hill. I have to say that she was the most amazing and interesting person I have ever met. She did major CRM engagements with the FAA and several airlines.

Here is some info…

http://diannehill.com/pier.htm


Cheers,

Tak

[snoopy]

An interesting read - thanks for the refreshment.

Just curious as to what this means: "Still hoping for a miracle Steve"

Whatever became of the co-pilot and the injured passengers?

Snoopy

[Liquid Charlie]

This threat sure went from remembrance to the soap box in a hurry.

[bobcaygeon]

[quote="cpl_atc"][quote="Doc"]

3) Can someone verify this? The GPS in the Bandit was previously installed in a company Beaver, and the fix for the ZGR "airport" was actually the water base and not the actual field, which led to suspected crew confusion while manoeuvring in the final moments. A theory was that this change in coordinates *may* have unexpectedly placed a forest fire spotting tower between them and the airport, and that the a/c stalled while manoeuvring to avoid the tower that suddenly appeared out of the slag.

quote]

I put that waypoint in the Beaver GPS, the report says last waypoint was CZGR (the airport) we'll never know what they had in the box before that.

"Company pressure" was not the cause, how come the 600 hr 185 pilot was smart enuf to turn around "the owners private a/c" in the report.

[bobcaygeon]

Do you think that those factors played a role in this accident?

Do you think that company culture had any role in this accident?

I don't think culture caused it, more like one guy making a really stupid decision and took his FO and 15 pax with him along for the ride.

As the report states ,the company didn't make the transition from 703 to 704 well, not intentionally, but just got in over the head of the people who operated it.

Why does Transport thinks pilot's make good managers. It's proven over and over that often they don't.

[bobcaygeon]

Reading the history of both pilots as outlined in that report is interesting.

The report doesn't paint the FO well but I would say that the lack of organized training contributed greatly to his Initial PPC woes.

I know I went thru that kind of training once or twice early in my career and when I finally got to an organized company, it was night and day.


What they shouldn't have been left out about the FO in this report, is that he refused to fly with the former CP because of the way he did things.
Not just once or twice but pretty much always.

How many of you 500 hr pilots would refuse to fly with your boss????



PS Last I heard Steve is in a long term care facility for severe head injury patients

[Anonymous1]

Why do companies insist on hiring these old men who have washed out of normal career progression? Pilots begin their careers on light aircraft and move up, eventually getting on with corporate / airline etc. Yet there is a small segment that consistently fail and end up as bitter, pissed off chief pilots at bush outfits, spending their days playing solitaire and telling grand tales to the new hires about their "glory days". These guys are useless yet Transport encourages their hiring because of their "experience". I flew with 3 of them and 1 is dead, the other is well know in ZF and should be dead, the last is probably dead and took 4 tries to transition from a DH6 to a BE20, and was still committed to VFR low level which was his comfort zone. These old men should be greeters at Walwart, not showing new hires the ropes while scaring FOs into not wanting to fly with them.

Where are the President and Ops Manager now? Do these people just move from company to company or do they give up entirely and just go into a new line of work? It would be interesting to have a listing of all the ex Presidents, Ops Managers and Chief Pilots from all these bush outfits from the 80s and 90s and see what has become of their lives. Sabourin, Tomahawk, Sowind, .... they just seem to disappear with the companies they ran but they are still somewhere......

[Doc]

For every one of these "old men" who roll an airplane up in a ball and kill a bunch of folks, I can name 10 young Turks who have done the same thing. Age has nothing to do with it.
Some "old men" could fly your ass off. Some, are doing what they want to do...not everyone wants to be strutting around an airport like a bloody peacock! Can you think of anyone who gave up the airlines to run a bunch of 'hos out of the north? I can.

And, when I read excuses like "the community had been isolated for many days..." it make me want to PUKE!!! Aw, gee, nobody could get the pop and chips in? Any pilot who "pushes" harder than they would "push" to get to Walmart for a loaf of bread is an IDIOT!!!!!

[shimmydampner]

Why do companies insist on hiring these old men who have washed out of normal career progression? Pilots begin their careers on light aircraft and move up, eventually getting on with corporate / airline etc. Yet there is a small segment that consistently fail and end up as bitter, pissed off chief pilots at bush outfits, spending their days playing solitaire and telling grand tales to the new hires about their "glory days".

You may be correct about a few of them, but overall, that is one of the most incorrect, arrogant, moronic, small-minded, immature, inexperienced posts ever. Congrats. Have fun with your "normal career progression" and enjoy striving to be the average small fish in a big pond.

[double-j]

For every one of these "old men" who roll an airplane up in a ball and kill a bunch of folks, I can name 10 young Turks who have done the same thing. Age has nothing to do with it.
Some "old men" could fly your ass off. Some, are doing what they want to do...not everyone wants to be strutting around an airport like a bloody peacock! Can you think of anyone who gave up the airlines to run a bunch of 'hos out of the north? I can.

And, when I read excuses like "the community had been isolated for many days..." it make me want to PUKE!!! Aw, gee, nobody could get the pop and chips in? Any pilot who "pushes" harder than they would "push" to get to Walmart for a loaf of bread is an IDIOT!!!!!

Doc, I think Anonymous1 was not trying to paint 'old' pilots with a tar brush. But I think we can all admit to seeing 'that guy' who (perhaps was older) was going from small outfit to small outfit, touting himself as some sort of skygod, hired only because of his questionable resume and grey hair in a sea of 'turks'. Only to show his true colours in the airplane, then..just as quick as he came, leave only to surface at another outfit a few communities over.

It happens...I can think of two I flew with in the nineties. Company said they wanted a little 'grey hair' in the seat. These guys come in like phantoms..and leave as quick. Bad pilots, no doubt.

[Liquid Charlie]

well boys here is my plan -- fly the 'til I'm 65 then retire and come and fly the "little stuff" just to piss you off -- lmfaooooooo --- and oh ya -- I'll need a swamper.

[Cat Driver]

I commented on how interesting it is to read the history of the pilots in that accident report.

I will try and see if this makes sense.....

anonymous1 wrote:::

Why do companies insist on hiring these old men who have washed out of normal career progression?

Based on the report this question is legitimate.

Pilots begin their careers on light aircraft and move up, eventually getting on with corporate / airline etc.

Not all do, however most do.

Yet there is a small segment that consistently fail and end up as bitter, pissed off chief pilots at bush outfits, spending their days playing solitaire and telling grand tales to the new hires about their "glory days".

This is a fact, we all have met them.

These guys are useless yet Transport encourages their hiring because of their "experience".

Now we are getting to the report....how did this guy get approved with so many red flags in his history?

I flew with 3 of them and 1 is dead, the other is well know in ZF and should be dead, the last is probably dead and took 4 tries to transition from a DH6 to a BE20, and was still committed to VFR low level which was his comfort zone.

That is quite believable.

These old men should be greeters at Walwart, not showing new hires the ropes while scaring FOs into not wanting to fly with them.

That might be what triggered Doc, the second time this poster focused on " old men " which might show a bias by this poster against " old men ".

Where are the President and Ops Manager now? Do these people just move from company to company or do they give up entirely and just go into a new line of work? It would be interesting to have a listing of all the ex Presidents, Ops Managers and Chief Pilots from all these bush outfits from the 80s and 90s and see what has become of their lives. Sabourin, Tomahawk, Sowind, .... they just seem to disappear with the companies they ran but they are still somewhere......

Once again we must examine the wording of the above......the question is legitimate, but may reflect the experience time frame of the poster, note he focuses on the 80's and the 90's which could mean his understanding of this problem is limited. This has been systemic in this sector of aviation for ever.

But then we all have our prejudices based on our own place in the scheme of things...I'm an old man.