I find this page very interesting and it brings up some points for discussion:

http://bst-tsb.gc.ca/en/reports/air/stu ... sa9301.asp

Dragged wing accidents are generally associated with cross-wind, high wind, or glassy water take-offs and landings, for which no training is required by Transport Canada (TC) before the issuance of a seaplane rating

This surprises me... In BC it is easy to find glassy water so why wouldn't a competent operator teach glassy water procedures.
I did glassy water and crosswind takeoffs and landings during my five hour course and have done a few since then. I also landed in a strong wind in a sheltered bay ("Maple Bay'?), David Boon was a good instructor.

Many of the points raised by the above web page are directly related to pilot decision making.
PDM should be emphasised much more during a pilot's training.

When training a student pilot to do a short field takeoff, the use of a decision point 'go - no go' is taught, so why do some of these accidents relate to not making the decision soon enough to abort the takeoff from a lake?

The overload situation is too common in the bush where going back on another trip is too much of a bother, so why don't we just crash here then we don't have to do it?
Like many pilots, I have flown an overloaded aircraft, but how overloaded? Not that much, it scares the hell out of me!
I once did two trips to Powell River because the guys turned up with tools and equipment that would have put the aeroplane well over gross.
But Powell River is not too far from here...
I told the operator he needed a Cessna 185 and not a Hawk XP!

Whether we fly floats or wheels, we still have the same decisions to make in most situations.

They compare wheeled and float accidents with each other... But I wonder if this would be different if it were float and tailwheel aeroplanes, or just aeroplanes operated away from certified airports?

Currency requirements have been historically weak in Canada, and the subject of safety critique on a number of occasions

Again, this is PDM, we can make the decision to get some training review or we can go!
I remember people who were somebody ten years or more back being given the Tiger Moth, "Oh you are so and so, sure you can go and fly the Tiger eh!" "Off you go...." SMASH!

Are you sure competent operators dont teach it?(thats not a sarcastic remark, im actually curious)

Im not sure thats why im asking, I would hope they do. I got some glassy water training when i did my float rating, however It took some time to feel comfortable doing it afterwards.

Yes, what we might consider a competent operator would teach it...
TC implies that trainers for float ratings don't, based on the statistics, and the fact it's not a requirement.

Perhaps based on the TC stats, many operators don't...

It's perhaps like the club here that grounds its aircraft if the wind exceeds 15 knots, the students are required to be taught crosswind landings, but not to the maximum demonstrated book figure...
Does 5 knots crosswind count?

Some people get their float ratings in two days, if these are gentle breeze, ruffled water days what have they learned?

Excellent point, I have to agree with you 100%

Reading this got me to thinking about how many different airplanes and helicopters I have flown that were sea planes......

......maybe some day I will try and remember and write a list...

The helicopters are easy to remember, there were only two that were capable of landing on the water....the R22 on floats that I used for helicopter training when I owned the flight school and the Sikorsky S61 and the S61 was the last helicopter I flew.

The airplanes will take a lot of remembering.

Maybe I should break the airplanes up into float planes and flying boats to make it easier to remember........

....naw fu.k it it would be to boring because I don't think I could remember them all.

Highflyinpilot wrote:Are you sure competent operators dont teach it?

MichaelP wrote:Dragged wing accidents are generally associated with cross-wind, high wind, or glassy water take-offs and landings, for which no training is required by Transport Canada (TC) before the issuance of a seaplane rating

Although I do not have a Float Rating, and would love to do one in the near future (these threads are interesting to discuss, btw); it seems that the majority of the folks here agree that the standards are to low and that there is a lack of experienced teachers out there.

*I* would certainly hope that operators would teach it. As an Instructor, to send a student out in the "real world" without all the "tools" available to them, to deal with the situation at hand, is is asking for another statistic.

As an aside, from what I dug up on TC's site, what the Instructor is required to teach ....

Instructor Guide - Seaplane http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/gener ... 8/menu.htm

It's not that there are too few experienced floatplane instuctors. It is that there are few students who are willing to pay for an experienced instructor.

Most of what i read on these forums is "go out and get the cheapest rating that you can" or "anything more than 7 hours is too much, you'll get that experience on the dock" and such.

This coast is loaded with very experienced high time pilots who would be excellent instuctors. It is just that the mentality of the industry is to pay instructors very little and people looking for the cheapest deal. How is it possible to cover all of the aspects of seaplane flying in 6 hours? (the other one is for the solo) You can't expect to find glassy water over 3-4 lessons. If you do, you won't find other conditions to cover. The 7 hours are really a licence to learn.

Why should an experienced pilot instruct for a very low wage? We don't feel this way about school teachers with our children. This IS the reason there are few experienced instructors out there and why most instructors are low time pilots looking to get hours paid for by another low time pilot so that they can move up the chain, rather than stay because of they enjoy teaching. There simply isn't the money to stay if you have a family and such.

Most of the time you get what you pay for.

Why isn't there a floatplane safety association in BC? My memory banks tell me that someone told me one had been attempted in the past ...

Since I'm of the opinion that egress training (amongst other things) should also be a part of commercial float training, I'd be interested in learning how to go about "officially" advocating regulatory training improvements.

Since I'm of the opinion that egress training (amongst other things) should also be a part of commercial float training, I'd be interested in learning how to go about "officially" advocating regulatory training improvements.

widow, if we who have spent a life time in aviation trying to bring about change are unable to do anything period, how do you think you could make any change?

I'll make you a deal..lets go to Ottawa together and meet with Jim Dow and present our ideas to him......

no..I won't do that your children need a mother and I would not want you to commit suicide trying to deal with that mentality.

I just did a float rating for a nice fellow with a homebuilt this summer. I spent about 2 hours with him doing probably 15 or so glassy water landings until I was satisfied that he was proficient. We also did engine outs, aborted take-offs, short fields (real ones ), cross-winds, etc. I charged him a real nice bottle of scotch (really really nice) when he did 7 solo take-offs and landings with his water rudder down. I think he will remember

Interesting topic.

I remember after I'd had my sea-plane endorcement with the ink still wet on the licence, I got my first early evening trip into a short lake with glassy water.
I approached my boss who just happened to be the late and legendary Rusty Myers. Rusty had provided me with my rating and I would do anything for the guy. He was a tough no nonsence man with a heart of gold. I told Rusty I really didn't want to do the trip because of my lack of experience. ( I'd never done a for real glassy water landing ) Rusty agreed and sent another pilot and then he called his son up to get over to the base and give me a good solid hour of glassy water training.

I've trained a few pilots in the art of float flying. I teach aircraft sailing as well as the stuff 1000 HP mentioned in the reply above. I also teach how to tie knots and rope handling. Don't laugh, improper rope wrangling has caused more damage to aircraft than most would imagine. I've seen guys tie loads down and aircraft up with such little thought process it's a wonder they could tie their shoes.
After a good dig on landing the load would be in their lap or smash the back of their heads in.
Like 1000hp, I don't ususally charge money but trade for something I could use. If they own the airplane I usually trade for an hour or two in it.
I agree, egrees training should be part of the rating and done before training begins.

This may sound like a stupid question, and I can't believe I've never asked it before but ...

Are there any differences in the TC requirements to fly floats privately as opposed to commercially?

Widow wrote:This may sound like a stupid question, and I can't believe I've never asked it before but ...

Are there any differences in the TC requirements to fly floats privately as opposed to commercially?

A rating is a simple 7 hours (your mileage may vary) plus five takeoffs and landings.

Commercial operations require 50 hours in the class of aircraft (read seaplane) and so many hours on type before you can fly commercially.



Glassy water was one of the first landings I did as we had lots of it available within a few minutes flying in the Okanagan on any given day.

So, 50 hours on type, but no specific extra training?

Widow: here's the link to TC.
http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/gener ... 8/menu.htm

This is what is supposed to be covered. Good luck getting all of this donee in 7 hours including the solo portion...

The commercial float operator's insurance company usually has a bit of a say in the matter...

iflyforpie wrote:Commercial operations require 50 hours in the class of aircraft (read seaplane) and so many hours on type before you can fly commercially.

Not always, many operators have an open pilot clause that allows them to judge when the pilot is ready to go. I was flying with 25 hours.

ST

I got my first float flying job at Northcoast Air in Prince Rupert with only 6 hours on floats.
Lets say there was a steep learning curve the first couple of months.

I got my first float flying job at Northcoast Air in Prince Rupert with only 6 hours on floats.
Lets say there was a steep learning curve the first couple of months.

Must of been in the good old days...

Believe it or not, I got my first job with the min., 5 hrs of float time, on the North Island. Yeah, talk about learning curve! .

All licences/ratings, when first issued, are a licence to learn.

eg PPL, float, night, multi, CPL, IFR, etc.

If anyone is thinking of doing a float course, do it with David Budd at Ocean Air. I did a 50hr with him last year before going out east. We did weather days, glassy water, high alttitude mountain lakes, and all in and around the Victoria / Vancouver area. Really good training if you can afford it. (about $12,000)

I would like to second the reccomendation for David Budd, his training has served me very well!!

As far as the 50 hour requirement goes, I was under the impression that it was an insurance requirement for most of the smaller operators, nothing to do with transport. The bigger companies usually have a different type of insurance that allows for the odd low time guy to fly for them.

As many people have mentioned already on this topic, its impossible to cover all the aspects of float flying in a seven hour course. That being said its also impossible to cover all the aspects of float flying in a fifty hour course. Simply put there is no substitute for real world experience. I can honestly say that I learned more about float flying and flying in general in my first week of flying commericaly on floats then I did in my entire CPL. Theres just something to be said about figuring it out ! So I wouldnt stress to much about the outfit you pick or the exact lessons they cover. Most good FTU's will teach in whatever conditions they can find to make you as proficient as possible. When it comes time to fly in the real world dont fly beyond your comfort level and you should be ok, Good luck and fly safe!

Back in the day (...say 30 years ago?), I was sent out to do the rating, since the company din't want me going solo on their 185. I'd started out on it on skiis since I had taildragger time. Even with a couple hundred hours of tailwheel time, my learning curve was pretty abrupt.


When I got back to Red Lake, I went on the Norm Wright float rating course. I'd have to look, but it was a lot longer than my navajo checkout. I didn't know how to read the wind, or the water. I couldn't tie a knot. I couldn't walk across the Jesus wire without a shriek, a splash and excruciating pain. Couldn't judge my altitude... and that was the nicer part of my daily debrief! Maybe a week later, I was sent out on the easy trips. Total strangers were asking me for position updates. Dock rats would saunter down to the airplane to see if I had pumped the floats. I had. They'd check again. We weren't a money-making airline, but between the boss with 20000 hours of floats, and the chief pilot with 25000, when they finally cut me loose with no supervision, I felt as confident as I ever had, before or since.

I took the underwater egress course a couple weeks ago. The advise I got 30 years ago was bang on. I wish I had taken it while I was flying floats, but Norm was right. Thinking back on it, he usually was.


JC