n/a

[JS32]

[SQ]

hey JS32
there will allways be smart ass to do this because it's easier and shorter than instructing.
but the CP told the boss if that was going on, she would lost all her planes.
they're not going to do this anymore. anyhow everybody there thought it was unfair exepting the 3 jerks who did it.

SQ

[bandit1]

The 703 industry in Quebec is worse than anywhere else.

Guys from France coming in and buying PPC's. Paying to work basically. Any company (such as Max Aviation) that supports this looses my respect.

There's plenty of good pilots looking for work here, why hire people from somewhere else and leave our guys out of work?

Anyway, that's 703 and it will always be like that. Get out as quick as you can. Hopefully Jazz will take all the 703 captains in Quebec and the shit companies will be parking planes.

[THEICEMAN]

pays 30K left seat on a king air

That's not true....they pay more then that. I believe that Captains start at 40K & FOs at 20K.

Is it any better with the other guys in YHU? Look at Pascan...they pay 15K for a pc-12 FO! All I can say is welcome to Quebec...

Guys from France coming in and buying PPC's. Paying to work basically. Any company (such as Max Aviation) that supports this looses my respect.

I haven't heard of anybody buying PPCs in order to get the job, but there may have been? Usually, the French students build time through instructing, then go to Max.

To you guys, it may not be the best company, but it's not so bad by Quebec 703 standards.
I have a couple of internal recommendations, so I might be able to get a spot on the king air in March.
Am I gonna buy a PPC? No way, I already put in 40K to train there, why would I pay anymore?
I know I could get paid better if I moved to Alberta...but I want to stay Home & work, so it's not that bad an option.

To each, there own..

[Strega]

Ive never understood why people think paying for a PPC (or in other words paying for training) is so bad, yet the same person, will have no trouble taking money and "hours" for their logbook, from customers in a flight school enviroment. Basicly whats happening is junior instructors are learning to fly on the students dime, shouldnt the student be learning from the instructor?

Just my two cents.


S

[Odysseus]

Hey ICEMAN, get your facts straight. Pascan pays 25K for PC12 and KA FO's, and 30K for JS32 FOs. Salaries for for the captains at Pascan start at 45K now, and I'm not including the per diems. I've worked for both companies and I can tell you that Pascan is not only superior in terms of salary and per diems, but that they treat their people better as well. You wont see Pascan selling PPC's to kids with 200hrs like Max Aviation does with the KA's and Navajos. The reason Max Aviation gets away with this is by taking advantage of foreign (french) students, basically telling them they need to pay for there PPCs to get a shot at a right seat. I wont name names but I know guys who had 1500hrs of instructing at Cargair (Max Aviation's flight school) who still had to pay 6K for their PA31 PPCs.

[Dash-Ate]

just dropping by to say...this is a good time for ISTP's post:

(never paid for training but also never screwed an employer )

AvCan cat is pissed!!

http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... 54&t=38317

[Rudder Bug]

I got paid to get my Navajo initial PCC. Was hired, trained and sent on a contract, paid from the day I left home. The BS mentioned above drives me banana

[Cat Driver]

Even better there was a time when we never had to get a PPC....the chief pilot determined what we flew by flying with us...

[Rudder Bug]

Yeah ., I remember these good ol days too. Then someone came up with these PPC or PCC's

[SQ]

Guys from France coming in and buying PPC's. Paying to work basically. Any company (such as Max Aviation) that supports this looses my respect.

i'm afraid to tell you 2 persons of the 3 buying PPC were quebecer
1 is family related to max's boss, payed for a navajo AND b100 PPC
the other one bought 25hrs on aztec then bought a b100 ppc

it seems you have betrailers in your own province dude

[Cat Driver]

Rudder Bug the PPC thing is just another fiasco thought up by people in TC who couldn't make it as pilots themselves.

And the PPC fiasco has been used as a lever against pilots with no real safety or any other positive gain.

Must make you guys really appreciate aviation huh?

[THEICEMAN]

hey Odyssey....thanks for the update, I guess my info is a bit outdated. I don't know if you noticed, but many at Max talk about Pascan being the worst of them all.

I wont name names but I know guys who had 1500hrs of instructing at Cargair (Max Aviation's flight school) who still had to pay 6K for their PA31 PPCs.

Don't worry, I know Cargair. 38K my cash went there!

How long ago was this? I know many at Max & none of them paid a dime for a PPC.
From what I am told, they won't be hiring Pa31 pilots since they are gonna dump them. It will be an all King Air fleet in the next few years.
Word is, they are looking for J31s........not many would be able to afford a PPc on that?

The reason Max Aviation gets away with this is by taking advantage of foreign (french) students, basically telling them they need to pay for there PPCs to get a shot at a right seat

They are not the only one's buying PPCs you know! Check out what SQ wrote...

[Rudder Bug]

Must make you guys really appreciate aviation huh?

Yup and I have quit that a few months ago. Next time I drive, I'll own the seat

[bandit1]

Quebecers have to pay for PPC at Max too. BUT- if it wasn't for all the french pilots there, they wouldn't have to- just like everywhere else.

[Benwa]

Quebecers have to pay for PPC at Max too. BUT- if it wasn't for all the french pilots there, they wouldn't have to- just like everywhere else.

No one ever HAS TO buy a PPC. They do so on their own, and it's wrong.

[SQ]

BUT- if it wasn't for all the french pilots there, they wouldn't have to- just like everywhere else.

this is why quebec aviation is fucked up : because you only want to do business beetwen quebecers. how come you do business without opening yourself to the world?
you just get what you deserve; stop whinning and saying french or english are buying your country : you can't even upkeep it.

read history and learn how older countries get developped : by opening its frontier/ market/mentalities...

[THEICEMAN]

this is why quebec aviation is fucked up : because you only want to do business beetwen quebecers. how come you do business without opening yourself to the world?
you just get what you deserve; stop whinning and saying french or english are buying your country : you can't even upkeep it.

read history and learn how older countries get developped : by opening its frontier/ market/mentalities...

I can agree with some of your points.
But I would like to remind you, that a big chunk of Quebec's exports is to the U.S. Business between Quebec & the U.S, is at an all time high. Especially in the import business, since the dollar is so high.

Most Quebecers have been reading the history books. They just see things differently then the rest of Englsih Canada.

[bandit1]

I understand that Max/Cargair makes a huge amount of money with the students from France and the reason they get all of them is because they ''promise'' them jobs after their training. Taking jobs away from us Canadians.

It will help them out in the near future when all the Canadians are out of 703, they will still have a good supply of pilots.

Jazz is hiring alot of foreign pilots too. That blows my mind but anyway.... Mind you, they are also hiring guess whithout any multi or turbine PIC time too. Which blows my mind as well. I guess that's the industry now and we have to accept it and adapt. No point being bitter about seeing guys getting spoonfed careers that alot of us busted our balls to get.

[Cat Driver]

bandit1, I share your disgust with the way aviation is going.

Maybe the cost for these airlines will end up more in the end?

[THEICEMAN]

Check this article out....from the Montreal Gazette's business section.

Fortunately for her, she can recruit instructors from her own flying school to fill the vacancies.
"That's one of the reasons we're still here today. I don't know how some of the smaller players do it," she said. "The shortage (of pilots) right now is severe, and it'll be that way for the next five years. That's why we're investing a lot in the school."

http://www.canada.com/montrealgazette/n ... =36472&p=1

[Odysseus]

From what I am told, they won't be hiring Pa31 pilots since they are gonna dump them. It will be an all King Air fleet in the next few years.

Good to know they're getting rid of the PA31s, MRG was the definition of a clapped out 'ho.

I don't know if you noticed, but many at Max talk about Pascan being the worst of them all.

Yeah, that probably has to do with a certain someone who got their King Air PPC at Pascan and ran away to Max two months later. Don't believe everything you hear about Pascan, especially stuff coming from people at Max. I worked the ramp at Max while I did my flight trainning, and I got to know people there pretty well. All I know is I'm glad I'm not working there anymore. As for people at Max buying their PPC's, I know of 4, 1 of them is from Quebec.
This was all a long time ago, I hope, but at the same time I doubt, that things there have changed.

[auto4]

It's simple...If you have to buy you're job(PPC),that shows that otherwise you would'nt be able to get it by your competency....So that shows you're lack of professionalism, knowledge, skills and respect of our profession. That mean's you're the lowest form of human being...

[bandit1]

Most of the professional industries right now are doing whatever they can to get young workers and keep them. Great conditions, pay and benefits. They know that they will be short workers soon and are investing in the most valuable asset- good workers.

The stupid whore of an industry we call 703 is doing just the opposite. Pay sucks, conditions are even worse. I sure hope they all get fucked cuz they deserve it and have seen it coming for a while. All they have to do is get the wages up, more days off and better conditions. Maybe a pension plan or some other sort of benefits. Guys would stay. Just like bush flying was a career years ago.

If I see one company complain that they don't have any qualified captains, I think I'm going to go out of my way to go up to the owner and say ''HA! Bet you didn't see that one coming!!!!''

what goes around comes around.....

[tool84]

Yes Max Aviation does sell PPC, but I guess those kids buying them dont give a damn what others think about it, hey they will get to Transat or Air Canada faster, no? I know one of those kids that bought 100 aztec hours, after the navajo and king air PPC, and he's a relative to Max Aviation's boss on top of that. I guess it's fun to be loaded.

But it's not like anyone will do anything about it, it's not like the human ressource department from Air Transat or Air Canada will look if that kid bought some PPC and say no we wont hire you. He will get in a big airline because he bought his first job and then progressed faster than the one that became an instructor or someone that did ramp time.

So those that have money or want to pass in front of everyone else will continue to buy PPC and no matter what people will say, it wont stop those kids from doing it. I guess it will stay like that until there is such a shortage of pilots that companies wont have any choice but to pay to get pilots, pay their training and pay a good salary.

Not sure if that will ever happen but that would be another topic to discuss.

On a side note I'm wondering what you guys (those that talk badly on this forum about the pilots who buy their jobs) do when you know a pilot that bought his job. I mean it's not like you can do much about it, I guess you can give him a hard time, but it's not going to stop that pilot from getting a job and progressing faster than others that dont buy their job.