Circuits question - maintaining runway heading

[MyMeowCat]

Hi Everyone:

Say the active runway is 34 and you have a wind coming from 330. On the departure for a standard left hand circuit -- we're supposed to maintain the runway heading while climbing to 500 feet above the aerodrome elevation then do a 90 degree turn left for crosswind.

My instructor told me I was drifting off of the runway track -- he didn't tell me how exactly to stay on the runway track during the departure leg and I can't find anything in the reading material about this (other than looking out your back window -- but I can't imagine continuously doing this through the entire departure leg).

I tried using the heading indicator to keep the runway heading but that doesn't work since the wind will cause you to drift. I'm not sure if you can use any landmarks since your Vy is 70 knots and your nose is pitched up so you may only see sky. My thinking is that it may not matter anyways because once you turn left and have a "visual" on the runway -- you can then align yourself perpendicular (which may require a greater than 90 degree turn).

Example: Take off Rwy 34, winds coming from 330, at 500 feet above airport elevation you find your Heading Indicator reads 340 but you're actually travelling 320 degrees magnetic because of the wind. Could you not just adjust yourself to be perpendicular to the runway during the crosswind climb (which eventually amounts to a 110 degree turn to the left instead of 90 degrees -- correcting for the drift)?? That should set you up good for the turn into downwind.

I'll be getting into the cockpit again in a few days -- just wondering if I had missed something before asking the instructor yet again and looking like an idiot?

MyMeowCat

[V1RotateV2]

In a visual circuit you may want to crab into the wind before you are over the opposite end of the runway. You know that you will need to crab right or left, so anticipate this and after rotation slightly turn into the wind to track the center line. The amount of crab will depend on the wind strength and direction, but with a little practice you will get it right.

On the other hand remember that if a controller or departure instructions are to maintain runway heading you do not compensate for the wind. Just hold the heading. The controllers will expect all planes to drift the same way and not have every pilot compensate differently.

Happy flying.

[Stinky]

IFR departures maintain heading and drifting is acceptable. They must calculate obstacle clearence requirements based on strong crosswinds.
As for VFR I crab into the wind and use landmarks to maintain a nice rectangular pattern.
If your instructor is telling you to maintain runway heading on your heading bug and not to drift at the same time you're in for some frustrating lessons.

[Connor M]

To maintain runway centre line as you climb out on departure you certianly need to crab as soon as you leave the ground. Just like the others have said anticipate and make the correction before you pass the departure end. I like to keep the wings level and allow the ship to weather cock, But a shallow co-ordinated turn works well as well. Then you can use land marks for the climb out. But land marks off the nose are not very usefull if you can't see them so use your side windows too. Pick your land marks offset from the extended centre line but parallel and use all the windows you have in the plane. Once you can see the runway it is all a ground reference manouver.

[tower controller]

From My point of view, looking out the window watching you, I'll use "maintain runway heading" so I have a predictable placce for you to be. If it's really windy I don't want you drifting into where the "downwind" would be, but other than that is doesn't much matter to me if you're a few degrees off the runway heading.

Usually when a controller uses this technique it's because he has somebody joining downwind on the side you're turning to and he/she wants to keep you away from their flight path until they are by you.

I hope that helps.

[pontius]

" like to keep the wings level and allow the ship to weather cock, But a shallow co-ordinated turn works well as well" ........Connor M.

If you keep the wings level and the ball in the middle, and you are airborne, your "ship" will not weathercock. If you want to maintain the extended centre line of the runway, your "co-ordinated turn" to a likely heading is the only way to go.
Landing in a crosswind, especially in a tail-dragger, is when you will weathercock, only it`s called a ground-loop.

[Lost in Saigon]

You need to ask your instructor how he would like you to do it.

A good instructor should tell you how. Usually in a pre-flight briefing before you do your first hour of circuits.

At the very minimum there should be a comfortable Student - Instructor relationship where you would not hesitate to ask if you don't understand something. The fact that you have to ask on a forum seems to indicate that you might need to work on your Student - Instructor relationship.

Don't be afraid to change instructors if there is any sort of tension or lack of communication. Lots of instructors get burnt out and hate their job. Find one that still enjoys their job.

[2R]

There are no stupid questions only stupid answers

Some questions ;
What is the purpose of a circuit /pattern ???
What are the benefits of doing circuits /patterns ???

Knowing the purpose of circuits/patterns will answer most questions you will have .Knowing the benefits will give you the motivation to do them .

Twenty degrees of drift on the upwind leg may mean you are at a school that does not limit crosswind training to less than 5 knots ,ENJOY as some schools do not believe in training in winds and your first experience in wind will be by yourself in your own plane.I always train pilots in the worst wind i can find .

[KnownIce]

I think if you make an estimate based on the reported winds, and then take a quick look out the back window after ~100-200 feet to adjust as needed you should be pretty close. If it is windy enough to make a signficant difference in track by 100' despite a resonable estimate of crab angle the odds are you are already quite aware of the crosswind based on the control inputs needed during acceleration, rotation, and the changes needed upon lift-off but before the point in which your nose is high enough to block your view.

Hope this helps.

[MyMeowCat]

I agree with Lost in Saigon.

The place I'm at seems just way too busy and some people describe it as quite a "Gong Show". It's like they have too many customers and won't mind losing a few. I'd bet the instructors are pretty burnt out as well. It's so busy that you have to book with multiple instructors just to finish off your PPL before you turn another birthday .

I should probably check into other options.

I'll have another go at the circuit and hope things make sense from there.

[Red Line]

Wow

Remember, YOU are the customer, paying big bucks for a service, not the other way 'round. Any other flight schools on the field?

[black hole]

You should start the practice of tracking the runway heading and not allowing the A/C to drift. Imagine the possible conflict potential at a place like Pitt Meadows with parallel runways.????

[MyMeowCat]

Thanks for the tips...It'll be a while before I get back into the aircraft and this circuit thing was bugging me in the meantime. I thought I'd post a question like this since most of the books I've read didn't really explain this particular aspect of it (and to save some instructors grief by being as prepared as possible for the next run).

In response to Red Line -- it's busy here in Calgary (I'm thinking it's not just the school I'm at). I guess people here have so much money -- even the not-so-serious folks are signing up for aviation.

I've considered going over to Harv's Air in Manitoba for a couple of weeks every month for 3 months or so and just jam in as many hours there as I can. They are appareantly flexible to your schedule -- but it'll be such a pain in the arse to keep travelling back and forth between provinces. Anybody try something like that before?

[scrambled_legs]

From My point of view, looking out the window watching you, I'll use "maintain runway heading" so I have a predictable placce for you to be. If it's really windy I don't want you drifting into where the "downwind" would be, but other than that is doesn't much matter to me if you're a few degrees off the runway heading.

Usually when a controller uses this technique it's because he has somebody joining downwind on the side you're turning to and he/she wants to keep you away from their flight path until they are by you.

I hope that helps.

Uh... I hope you just wrote a confusing post and really don't think that rwy heading is going to keep the plane on the extended rwy centerline. And black hole, you can't practice tracking the runway heading. You either practice flying rwy track or rwy heading, they are two very different things.

Rwy heading is simply that, rwy heading. If the rwy is 34, you point the plane to a heading of 340 and let the wind take you where it takes you. You do not compensate for drift when assigned rwy heading. If the wind is 250 at 40kts, you point the plane heading 340 and let it drift you as far to the east as it drifts you.

If you want aircraft to avoid converging into the downwind due to a strong crosswind, don't assign rwy heading, assign rwy track. When you've been told to climb rwy track you must crab. When flying rwy track, if you look back at the runway on departure, both thresholds should be perfectly in line with each other so that if you drew an extended center line, it'd run right through the middle of your plane.

If you are flying a circuit you don't fly rwy heading you fly runway track. You crab to compensate for wind drift on departure, on crosswind, downwind, base and final. No matter what the winds are doing, your path over the ground should be a perfect rectangle and the exact same path as the day before when the winds were blowing from the other side of the runway.

Hope that clears it up.

[bob sacamano]

Once you lift off, pick a landmark that's right off your nose and go towards it, don't even look at the heading indicator. In the VFR world, you're flying by looking outside, so don't even bother with your heading. Crab any way you have to, to keep that plane going towards that geographical landmark.

[skydivepilot]

I would take "remain on rwy hdg" as just that. Hold the runway heading no matter what the winds were doing to you. If I was unsure of what the controller wanted me to do, I would simply ask him if he wanted me on the rwy hdg or rwy track. I guess you did have your instructor with you so that complicates who you ask but I always double check with the controller if things aren't clear to me. I'm sure the controllers would rather you ask to clarify what they want you to do instead of guessing and maybe doing something wrong. That's my $0.02 anyway.

[scrambled_legs]

Just to add to what Bob said. I like to tell fresh pilots to pick Two landmarks that are right off your nose and keep them in line. An experienced pilot has no problem flying a straight line towards a single landmark but when you're learning, you'll often fly a big C to get to that landmark. If you have 2 landmarks that you have to keep in line, you'll always be on the same track. If you only have 1, you can simply keep the nose pointed at it and still have the wind drift you in a big arc. It's the same as flying towards an NDB without compensating for drift. The other way to check if you're staying in a straight line with using only 1 landmark is to take a look back at the rwy and make sure that if there was a line extending from the rwy to the landmark, that you're right on it.

Flying circuits is done by looking outside only, don't worry about headings.

Unfortunately in todays congested VFR world, there are many times that you are told to fly a specific heading so it isn't all looking outside. If you're told to climb rwy heading and maintain 6,000, do exactly that. Ignore the drift and nail whatever heading rwy heading is on your HI or compass if not equipped.