FSS Direct Entry

[pokaroo]

Can we please not turn this into an ATC vs FSS debate once again...............

All rumour at this point but here's what I heard...........

No tuition
Paycheck right from day 1
$$$ to OJI upon qualification of student
Gift to student upon qualification
Grad dinner attended by upper management

that's it for now but very very interesting

I can't believe they are going to try this and that the FSS union is going to let this fly, the lack of sim time alone is an embarassment to the industry.

I can't wait till this company get's some new blood on the training side of things and actually makes a decision or two that makes sense.

[lilfssister]

I saw an e-mail about that a month or two back, as a pilot project in a few spots. (Well not the OJI $$$ (I assume you mean some kind of bonus on top of OJI pay?), the grad dinner with management, or grad gift).

Don't recall if trainees would be paid from day one.

IIRC the simulator training hours had been reduced so much at the place formerly called NCTI, that they were (somehow) intending to do simulation onsite at the individual FSS's, prior to beginning official OJT. Not sure how that is going to work, but if I am not mistaken it has already started in a place or two.

At least union VP expressed their less than favourable opinion of it, in a newsletter at the time it was announced.

Will have a look and see if I still have the e-mail next day I am at work, for details.

[sigmet77]

I really hope the money to OJI at check out is a crazy rumour. Having a pot of gold as a result of a sucessful checkout is just plain stupid. It can be money, but it is also the same if you are checking out the person that is replacing you at the site. The sooner they check out the sooner you get to move on, I've seen it and I've seen it go real bad. Direct entry, don't like it, but I'll bet they know exactly how much they'll save by doing it, ergo it is going to happen.

[atwork]

Happening in YPA and YQT starting this March, haven't heard if there is tuition or not but I'm sure the there will be OJI pay involved. Just did a quick search and found this link so I'm sure it's coming to an FSS near you, looks like we have to get used to it. As for less sim time, the way I look at it there will be more real life experience for the trainees which is a lot more valuable than fake sim time.

http://www.saskjobs.ca/pls/saskjob/skj_ ... ?id=186375

[grimey]

As for less sim time, the way I look at it there will be more real life experience for the trainees which is a lot more valuable than fake sim time.

Not for initial training. The 180/360 sims that are currently used for FSS and VFR training allow the trainee to screw up fantastically and see the effects, with no real world consequences. You can't do this if you're talking to real aircraft. At most, you can allow the trainee to make errors until it's reaching the end of the comfort level of the instructor to recover from. The current sims are realistic enough to provide a very smooth transition to real-world on the job training.

[thatdaveguy]

OK I know a fair bit about this program and most of the information you have is incorrect.

1) You still pay $1000 + tax tuition
2) Your paycheck does not start until you pass the basic course part... so you will be doing live aircraft radio work for zero pay. I believe the 'course' will be 60 days--it's unclear if they mean training days (I sure hope so...)
3) I have heard a lot about this program and I've never heard of checkout bonuses. The company does not bonus any other represented employees AFAIK in the company for anything, so I REALLY doubt this.
4) Gift to student on qualification? They probably haven't even decided on this because NO ONE WILL CHECKOUT ! It'll probably be a mug.
5) Grad dinner - yay.
6) Once you qualify, you WILL BE FORCED TRANSFERRED. PERIOD. No checkouts will be permitted to stay at the site they checked out at.

There are 5 initial sites for this pilot project -- Thompson, Brandon, Thunder Bay, Prince Albert and Gatineau.

Two sites have already 'failed'. Thompson found ONE applicant who passed the hiring tests, but then he decided he did not want to do it anymore.

The FSS Staff at Brandon have rallied together and declared they will refuse to do the program altogether. Kudos to them.

This is a horrible idea. They will be taking Specialists who have no interest in classroom instruction and forcing them to do it. Instead of having a team of five instructors like NCTI, you will only hear a single opinion on a subject. There will be woefully uneven training curriculum between the stations. The checkout rate will be abysmal.

This whole program is being spear headed by [decided to remove specific name] out of NCTI. Remember that name as a gentleman promoting reduced safety for the aviation community to try and get himself promoted to management.

As for our union stopping this... LOL, we are not the controller union. Our union has very little clout.

[lilfssister]

Sounds like "the pilot program to determine the viability of this training method" is going well

If the trainees are going to be force transferred at the end of training, it seems to make the part of the plan "to hire locally and involve the site in the selection of candidates" a waste of time?

"Training will include all of the same elements, however, students will receive up to 60 days of onsite aaprenticeship training to replace the four days of aviation simulation and seven days of weather observation practice currently provided at the Training anad Conference Centre" ( I knew the course had been shortened, but WOW! That's not near enough sim time IMHO.

"...allow students to practice ...under the guidance of an OJI before entering the Unit Qualification Training Program". With NO sim time? Scary.

^ ^ ^ ^ ^(The stuff in quotes is from that e-mail we got a few months ago)^ ^ ^ ^ ^

There's an awful lot wrong with the plan, most of which has been covered by previous posters.

[thatdaveguy]

They massaged those numbers quite a bit lilfsssister. Current NCTI FSS ab initios do 30 sim runs plus evals (about another 8 runs) prior to being released into the wild.

As for Weather Obs... there was at least four hours a week...which makes about 60 hours of weather obs

[W0XOF]

As far as SIM time goes, the two National Training Specialists indicated that a number of LCD monitors and software would be used at the local site as a simulator. Apparently the technology is there. Having said that I hope it fails horribly! Maybe Joe "The Rat" F****** will disappear with it!! He's no friend of FSS!

[ypamcvey]

I know this is quite old but I am the trainee from YPA involved in this program. I fully checked out about two months ago and am still here without any mention of transfer. It was a great program and had a lot of praise from everyone involved including the upper management. Definitey beats going to NCTI in my opinion(not that I've been there though). Apparently I did hundreds more Wx obs and had tonnes more hours of actual OJT than people in NCTI due to the fact that my "simulation" was actually sitting down at the positions and doing the jobs real time with real pilots everyday all day. Im thankful for the oppertunity and would reccomend it to anyone wanting to become an FSS.

[W0XOF]

I know this is quite old but I am the trainee from YPA involved in this program. I fully checked out about two months ago and am still here without any mention of transfer. It was a great program and had a lot of praise from everyone involved including the upper management. Definitey beats going to NCTI in my opinion(not that I've been there though). Apparently I did hundreds more Wx obs and had tonnes more hours of actual OJT than people in NCTI due to the fact that my "simulation" was actually sitting down at the positions and doing the jobs real time with real pilots everyday all day. Im thankful for the oppertunity and would reccomend it to anyone wanting to become an FSS.

Honest question for you. I know the intent with this "pilot" program was to hire locally. So, I'm assuming you are from the local Prince Albert area, how will you feel when you have to move? Were you told from the start that you would have to move?

Just an FYI for those who don't know, ATSAC has a seniority bid clause and CYPA is a seniority bid site.

[ypamcvey]

Honest question for you. I know the intent with this "pilot" program was to hire locally. So, I'm assuming you are from the local Prince Albert area, how will you feel when you have to move? Were you told from the start that you would have to move?

Yes I'm from the PA area. Yes I was told about relocation. How will I feel? I'm guessing the same way most people will feel.
Also my main OJI has stated many times on how much easier it was to train me than someone fresh out of NCTI who didn't deal with real pilots and some of the scenarios that come up in real life.

[square]

Did you get paid from day 1 with a bonus after checkout?

[ypamcvey]

Did you get paid from day 1 with a bonus after checkout?

From the start of class? No. I did get my tuition refunded though and that was great.

[bigfssguy]

[quote="W0XOF]Just an FYI for those who don't know, ATSAC has a seniority bid clause and CYPA is a seniority bid site.[/quote]



When did PA become a seniority bid site? I hasn't ever been before?

[Braun]

Did you get paid from day 1 with a bonus after checkout?

From the start of class? No. I did get my tuition refunded though and that was great.

WHHHHHHHHHHHHHAT? Why did you get it refunded?

[ypamcvey]

Did you get paid from day 1 with a bonus after checkout?

From the start of class? No. I did get my tuition refunded though and that was great.

WHHHHHHHHHHHHHAT? Why did you get it refunded?

It was a completely new test-bed kind of pilot project so they wanted to show their appreciation I believe for being guinea pigs. We weren't paid throughout the school term like NCTI students so that may be another reason?

[SpeedRacer]

It was a completely new test-bed kind of pilot project so they wanted to show their appreciation I believe for being guinea pigs. We weren't paid throughout the school term like NCTI students so that may be another reason?[/quote]


FYI Ab initio NCTI students don't get paid through the training program until they complete the basic course.

[ypamcvey]

It was a completely new test-bed kind of pilot project so they wanted to show their appreciation I believe for being guinea pigs. We weren't paid throughout the school term like NCTI students so that may be another reason?

FYI Ab initio NCTI students don't get paid through the training program until they complete the basic course.[/quote]
Basic course as in the actual schooling part? I swear I heard from one of the recent(3 years~) NCTI grads that they did get paid. Also you guys got room & board for "free", I didn't

[grimey]

it's been way more than 3 years since NCTI students got paid. 4 1/2 years ago we got a taxable benefit (free room and board), but we still had to pay tuition, and we didn't get paid. It's been over 10 since any NCTI/TCTI student got paid, IIRC.

[BlueQuill]

I don't think any Ab Initio students have been paid since at least as far back as privatization (Nov. '96). Some students were paid for AWBS if they directly continued on to that course before reporting to a station until about 6-7 years ago.

BTW, CYPA is definitely not a seniority bid site.

[ypamcvey]

Hm. My mistake then. Anyone else have any other questions?

[Braun]

lol, Can I get my tuition refunded??? hehe Good for you guys that it worked out, our course was pretty successful as well!

[ypamcvey]

lol, Can I get my tuition refunded??? hehe Good for you guys that it worked out, our course was pretty successful as well!

Hahah that's good to hear. Though I'd gladly take free room & board over getting my tuition back

Also there was an article on this apprenticeship program in the NavCanada news either last issue or the one before that I believe.

[pokaroo]

Well now that the precedent has been set if I were a newly qualified FSS or about to enter training I would think that the $1000 should be refunded, conditional to successful training. The Union should be jumping all over this.