Ideal Glider Tow Plane?

[DHQ]

I'm looking for opinions on what the best tow plane for launching gliders would be. The Pawnee is on the top our list at the moment, but looking for some other good ideas.

Cheers.

[ottawa,kan]

The Glider club at my airport uses a C-150 Aerobat. Works but it sure isn't a Pawnee. Must be tons cheaper though.

[Carrier]

PA18 Supercub with 180hp engine works well.

[ch135146]

[Blue Side Down]

I towed for a couple of hours in a Pawnee a few years back. IIRC, turnaround for 2000' tows ranged from 5-8 minutes if there was a line of gliders ready to go. I've also towed with a 180 horse Citabria- both do a fine job, but the Pawnee has some extra brawn that really makes a difference. In comparison, I'd estimate that the Citabria's turnaround was 3 to 6 minutes longer than the Pawnee.


Adam Oke's bound to see this thread sometime- he's currently flying tow on the type, and would be a good guy to get a review from...

[looproll]

if you have money to spend, the Wilga 2000 is pretty slick

http://www.sealandaviation.com/sealand-eads.htm

[jspitfire]

Air Cadets in BC have used the Cessna 305 bird dog quite sucessfully for many years. The PZL Wilga 2000 was meant to replace them, but only one aircraft was bought before production was cancelled.

[nickirsch]

I've got a few hours in L-19's and a Citabria 7gcbc with a 180. Out of those two I would choose the Citabria as it performs nearly just as well but will run cheaper considering fuel burn and maintenance etc. We ran the Citabria hard 7 days a week for 6 months last summer and not once had any more than a minor problem with it.

[linecrew]

Antonov An-2?

[Adam Oke]

I’d say that the Pawnee is, over all, the ideal towing aircraft so far. Cheap, Efficient, Ugly, Durable, Easy to fly … I could go on. Having only flown tug in the Citabria and Pawnee (235, 250, and 260), my personal experience to various tug aircraft is limited … having lived at gliding clubs both in Canada and New Zealand, I can enlighten you on some hanger talk.

The Pawnee climbs like a homesick angel. It will easily run between 4-8 mins for a 2000 ft tow (Including take off roll and landing roll to stop) … if that’s all you’re after. A 235, 250 or 260 will do 800ft a min in stable air with heavy glass, and 1000ft/min for most others. It all depends on the driver as well. If the driver is a glider pilot, than they know to tow in the shade as opposed to the blue, and know to descend in the blue as opposed to the shade … tight, descending downwind … no Boeing circuits (BIG waste of time and money)… but that’s all the finer details of pilot efficiency, not aircraft specific. The Pawnee having such a dirty landing configuration gives it optimal short field performance for clearing fences at 200-300ft, yet still landing prior to the grid stack (if the airfield allows) … if not, it’s still minimal breaking to get that thing stopped and turned around.

As for those who put 150hp 0-320’s in their Pawnee’s, anyone care to let me know how that’s working for yea? I can’t see it being pretty.

The Slowtabria … errm …. Citabria 7GCBC (hopped up to a 180hp 0-360) will run almost as well in the climb as a Pawnee, but the Pawnee beats in the climb, and by a LONG shot in the decent. As knife edge as you can get that Citab, it still will not decent nearly as fast as a Pawnee in level flight. Another thing is that the Citab CHT runs a bit hot and you’re asking quite a bit from that 0-360 … thus on the let down procedure you have to be a lot nicer so at not to start cracking metal that you don’t want cracks in. On the flight line Pawnee drivers will easily lap the Citabria on the Grid. The flaps are garbage in comparison to the barn doors the Pawnee has. The Citab has a tendency to float a bit further down the runway, making turn around time just that much longer.

After flying through holes in tree lines and hopping power lines from off field landings, I must say having that 0-540 instead of the Citabs 0-360 is much needed in particular situations … or should’ve been used rather. There have been hot muggy days where I wouldn’t even think twice about driving the Citab … not worth the risk.

I will be bold enough to say the Scout, Cub, and L-19 run similar if not the same as the Citab. Not having flown them, this statement is to be held loosely. The C150 ... no. Just .... no.

I shouldn’t call the Citabria PURELY slow though. For XC retrieves and tow, it’s by far much more efficient for obvious reasons. Granted, if the strip is long enough.

Someone stated "must be alot cheaper" .... keep in mind about how long it take a smaller aircraft to get to altitude. You can't think about it as operating costs in the mind set of burn rate, but instead by how many launches per given amount of fuel. As for comparisons for fuel consumption the 260hp Pawnee is still more efficient than the 180hp Citab (And others that I would class in the same category), because of more bang for your buck. With the same amount of fuel, you can get more gliders up in the air using a Pawnee.

Recently at the Grand Prix Gliding Championships in Omarama, New Zealand we had our 250 Pawnee up against a “Fatman” Gippsland GA-200C. The “Fatman” is loosely designed around the Pawnee … unfortunately it’s a little bit sleeker than and not nearly as draggy as the ‘ol PA-25. Needless to say the climb performance was the same, but the Pawnee out performed the Fatman in the decent. That being said; Pawnee vs. Fatman having 0-540’s in both … Pawnee wins.

Anything less than 180HP just spells inefficiency to me … I could be wrong, but if the 0-540 in the right plane is still beating anything smaller.

As for the Wilga, it seems to be widely used in the European Gliding Community when they’re not operating winch. It’s loaded with a 300hp IO-540 … not too sure how much more efficient the I0-540 is to the O (or vice versa). Never flown one. I’ve heard nothing but good about them, but I haven’t heard any comparisons to the all mighty Pawnee. The Wilga looking (quote) "slick" is going to be it's downfall. As stated earlier; the ugly the better basically. I’m a Pawnee lover, so you would know my opinion … but I don’t know how they officially would compare … I would guess the Pawnee still falls out of the sky better.

[bmc]

Here in Switzerland, the 235hp Maule is a very popular towplane. The Pawnee is everywhere and some of the Robin aircraft are common as well.

[Jungle Jim]

I heard the Gray Lakes Gliding Club near Tottenham is looking at switching to a European plane called the Samba. It's got a 912S engine and is able to tow quite well. They have been using a Pawnee for years.

Jim

[Hedley]

Antonov An-2?

Ha ha, very funny. Certainly elsewhere in the world,
but never, ever in Canada, which is historically odd
given how closely aligned Canada was with the former
Soviet Union and Cuba.

[DHQ]

Thanks for the input. All roads seem to be leading toward the Pawnee, so we'll likely buy one of those.
Does anyone know about these experimental type conversions where they put a more modern automotive engine on an airplane, geared down to drive the prop? It seems to me that type of thing would make a good towplane, being liquid cooled and more fuel efficient.

[Jungle Jim]

Check the Gray Lakes Gliding Club. Their's is probably for sale.

Jim

[MUSICMAAN]

We use a Champ 7GCB with an O-320 (150hp) and a Borer Seaplane Prop... No word of a lie, it tows a 2 seat Blanik at 7-800 fpm in on a warm Okanagan day. We used to use a 280hp Cessna 182, it worked well but was a faster tow.

[ahramin]

L-19s are a very decent towplane. L-19 flaps make the pawnee flaps seem ... impotent. On higher tows it will beat the pawnee on the way down, though total time up and down the pawnee is faster.

The downside is acquisition and operating cost. The L-19s, being warbirds, are sometimes over 6 figures and C-305s are not far behind. They average up to 50% more than a pawnee. In addition the pawnee has a very low operating cost compared to the L-19s. While L-19s are great for air cadet and civil air patrol operations (2 seats, can be parked outside in the rain, macho warbird factor) they are simply too pricey for most gliding clubs to justify.

The Robin are great towplanes because of the large wing and light weight when empty, they are just very rare in north america. Tow heavy glass just as well as a pawnee on the way up.

The only 2 downsides to the pawnee are the inadvisability of parking them outside in inclement weather, and the chemical spray stink and equipment. If you can find one that has already been converted to glider towing and does not smell like cat driver great, but for a spray plane even after removing the hopper, spray booms, flagger, etc you are left with a plane that nobody wants to spent the day sitting in because of the funk.

[SeptRepair]

I’d say that the Pawnee is, over all, the ideal towing aircraft so far. Cheap, Efficient, Ugly, Durable, Easy to fly … I could go on. Having only flown tug in the Citabria and Pawnee (235, 250, and 260), my personal experience to various tug aircraft is limited … having lived at gliding clubs both in Canada and New Zealand, I can enlighten you on some hanger talk.


As for those who put 150hp 0-320’s in their Pawnee’s, anyone care to let me know how that’s working for yea? I can’t see it being pretty.

I was talking with a couple of buddies of mine who fly the Pawnee for our local glider guy, and the only complaint they have is oil temp problems. The Pawnee they use is a 150 hp. It has that dinky little brass oil cooler up front. I thought about throwing a little water injection in front of it to help with the climb temp problems but they didn't think it was really that much of an issue to warrant adding that mod. Other than that they have no complaints using it to tow.

[mellow_pilot]

This one's got a hook... There are probably better tow planes, but can they do the upside-down thing? Cause that's kinda fun when you're not towing...

[linecrew]

Antonov An-2?

Ha ha, very funny. Certainly elsewhere in the world,
but never, ever in Canada, which is historically odd
given how closely aligned Canada was with the former
Soviet Union and Cuba.

Well there is this airworthy Canadian registered one at Buttonville...maybe the owner could be convinced to sell?

[Panama Jack]

the chemical spray stink and equipment. If you can find one that has already been converted to glider towing and does not smell like cat driver great, but for a spray plane even after removing the hopper, spray booms, flagger, etc you are left with a plane that nobody wants to spent the day sitting in because of the funk.

I have noticed that about glider towing pawnees. Even ones that have been towing gliders for years. I am wondering, is this smelly stuff hazardous to human health?

[ahramin]

Well, . says he literally washed his hands with the stuff and he is still alive, but i have heard of sprayer pilots wearing gas masks. I would certainly think working around this stuff everyday would take several years off a person but i doubt flying an empty one around can be that bad. Especially considering how well ventilated they are.

[Adam Oke]

Yea, I have flown about 5 different ex spray plane pawnees and have never found any issue with smell. Heck, a couple have still had the hopper on with no stink. Just got to watch for corrosion in my opinion, particularly on the flap hinges because that is where I've seen some serious corrosion on a couple different pawnees.

[tiggermoth]

Extra 300!! Best towplane ever, check it out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=beu9QiOk3dE

Actually, the best ones I have seen are the pawnee and bellanca Scout. My dad used to tow with a Cessna 182.

[ei ei owe]

If you're running an L-19, don't forget the shorter TBO of the military Continental. That's serious cash.