Pilotos... if you're asked something by ATC, answer safely..
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- invertedattitude
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Pilotos... if you're asked something by ATC, answer safely..
Not with pride or "what the computer says"
If a controller asks if you can meet a restriction be it a climb/ descent restriction or a time restriction or whatever it may be, answer safely please!
If you're given a restriction and you see you're not going to make it, advise ATC as soon as you become aware of it.
The last thing personally I want to hear is "Well the computer says we should be able to do it" That's nice, but I'm expecting the pilot to know his/her aircraft using their onboard equipment to assist them and if he/she has any doubt about the abilities to meet a restriction, don't accept it, it's that simple.
Yes we are monitoring and if it's not working out we're going to take further action to fix it, but chances are a crews inability to meet a restriction will normally mean at least one if not more other flights being inconvenienced for one crews mistake. Not to mention it obviously creates a higher risk of two airplanes getting too close to each other!
If a controller asks if you can meet a restriction be it a climb/ descent restriction or a time restriction or whatever it may be, answer safely please!
If you're given a restriction and you see you're not going to make it, advise ATC as soon as you become aware of it.
The last thing personally I want to hear is "Well the computer says we should be able to do it" That's nice, but I'm expecting the pilot to know his/her aircraft using their onboard equipment to assist them and if he/she has any doubt about the abilities to meet a restriction, don't accept it, it's that simple.
Yes we are monitoring and if it's not working out we're going to take further action to fix it, but chances are a crews inability to meet a restriction will normally mean at least one if not more other flights being inconvenienced for one crews mistake. Not to mention it obviously creates a higher risk of two airplanes getting too close to each other!
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Re: Pilotos... if you're asked something by ATC, answer safely..
More than one controller was caught in days past by the computer... Some people used to refer to it a getting "Bussed", as in Airbus. This was particularly true back in the days of non-RVSM, with 4,000' climbs between altitudes...
AC698: "Centre, AC698 requesting FL390"
Ctr: "AC698 roger, maintain FL390"
AC698: "AC698 leaving FL350 for FL390"
<three minutes pass, AC698 now passing through FL383 with opposite direction traffic at FL370 35 miles ahead>
AC698: "Centre, AC698 is unable FL390, guess the computer led us astray there"
Ctr: "AC698 roger, turn right 50 degrees, maintain FL350, expedite your descent, traffic twelve o'clock, 30 miles...."
Ctr: "AC595, turn right 30 degrees for traffic descending from FL383 to FL350"
Most important thing is to advise the controller asap if it's not going to work. Next most important thing is to ask why the computer flying the plane is unaware of the plane's capabilities...
AC698: "Centre, AC698 requesting FL390"
Ctr: "AC698 roger, maintain FL390"
AC698: "AC698 leaving FL350 for FL390"
<three minutes pass, AC698 now passing through FL383 with opposite direction traffic at FL370 35 miles ahead>
AC698: "Centre, AC698 is unable FL390, guess the computer led us astray there"
Ctr: "AC698 roger, turn right 50 degrees, maintain FL350, expedite your descent, traffic twelve o'clock, 30 miles...."
Ctr: "AC595, turn right 30 degrees for traffic descending from FL383 to FL350"
Most important thing is to advise the controller asap if it's not going to work. Next most important thing is to ask why the computer flying the plane is unaware of the plane's capabilities...
Re: Pilotos... if you're asked something by ATC, answer safely..
Heh.
You'll get to the stage in your ATC career when, if you ask "Are you able.......?", the reply will tell you all you need to know. If it isn't an immediate "Affirmative", perhaps you should be thinking twice.
You'll get to the stage in your ATC career when, if you ask "Are you able.......?", the reply will tell you all you need to know. If it isn't an immediate "Affirmative", perhaps you should be thinking twice.
Re: Pilotos... if you're asked something by ATC, answer safely..
No disrespect but in case it hasn't occurred to you, putting computers aside, sometimes we need a minute to pull out a performance chart and actually calculate whether or not it is a doable or even feasible option. When asking for a higher altitude or faster speed there are other considerations besides simply knowing whether or not the aircraft can do it.Jerricho wrote:Heh.
You'll get to the stage in your ATC career when, if you ask "Are you able.......?", the reply will tell you all you need to know. If it isn't an immediate "Affirmative", perhaps you should be thinking twice.
Re: Pilotos... if you're asked something by ATC, answer safely..
When asking for a higher altitude or faster speed there are other considerations besides simply knowing whether or not the aircraft can do it.
Amen to that!
Amen to that!
Re: Pilotos... if you're asked something by ATC, answer safely..
@TFE731
You'll get to a stage when you'll realise that someone is perhaps talking a little tongue in cheek

I do know what you mean though, but if a controller asks the question "Are you able?", and receives a reply of "Ahhhh, errrrr, ummm, I think so" and gets burned separation wise because of it.........I think you might get my drift.
You'll get to a stage when you'll realise that someone is perhaps talking a little tongue in cheek

I do know what you mean though, but if a controller asks the question "Are you able?", and receives a reply of "Ahhhh, errrrr, ummm, I think so" and gets burned separation wise because of it.........I think you might get my drift.
Re: Pilotos... if you're asked something by ATC, answer safely..
I think the message here is that when performance is in question and it will take more than 2 seconds to confirm the ability to climb, just say "no".
I'd go so far to say that if you're happy and comfortable at the current assigned altitude, also just say no.
I'd go so far to say that if you're happy and comfortable at the current assigned altitude, also just say no.
Re: Pilotos... if you're asked something by ATC, answer safely..
Hopefully, the controller has let you know what they are asking if you can make the restriction.
"Are you able FL230 by *wherever*......opposite direction traffic/traffic holding etc".
One I see fairly regularly is an arrival that has hung up at nosebleeds for what ever reason, with not many track miles to go straight in for the active. You tell the driver "You've got 25 miles to the field, is that sufficient for the height". Response "Uhhhh, arrh, we should be ok"............hmmm, hows about I give you a few more miles to take the "should" out of it.
"Are you able FL230 by *wherever*......opposite direction traffic/traffic holding etc".
One I see fairly regularly is an arrival that has hung up at nosebleeds for what ever reason, with not many track miles to go straight in for the active. You tell the driver "You've got 25 miles to the field, is that sufficient for the height". Response "Uhhhh, arrh, we should be ok"............hmmm, hows about I give you a few more miles to take the "should" out of it.
Re: Pilotos... if you're asked something by ATC, answer safely..
man, i'd love to have a heads up on how many miles ATC is planning me to the threshold!
Drinking outside the box.
- invertedattitude
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Re: Pilotos... if you're asked something by ATC, answer safely..
That case I had which prompted this recently was:
Departure requesting FL360, that time of night FL340 and 360 are structured eastbound levels.
It was a "If you're not able 380 it's going to be 320"
Which in itself is a bit of a trap on the control side... seems some crews would rather be vectored all over hells creation that get restricted by 5000-6000 feet for 20-30 minutes.
Departure requesting FL360, that time of night FL340 and 360 are structured eastbound levels.
It was a "If you're not able 380 it's going to be 320"
Which in itself is a bit of a trap on the control side... seems some crews would rather be vectored all over hells creation that get restricted by 5000-6000 feet for 20-30 minutes.
- invertedattitude
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Re: Pilotos... if you're asked something by ATC, answer safely..
cpl_atc wrote:Exactly.CID wrote:I think the message here is that when performance is in question and it will take more than 2 seconds to confirm the ability to climb, just say "no".
Am I the only one who's a bit disturbed by that statement? Controllers do not move airplanes on a whim, and changing altitudes is usually towards the bottom on my list of options.CID wrote:I'd go so far to say that if you're happy and comfortable at the current assigned altitude, also just say no.
Yea, normally if I ask an airplane "Are you able FLXXX for traffic?" If the answer is no, I'd say about 50% or more of the time he's going to get descended, which quite often leads to "Well I guess we can make XXX after all"
To which my reply usually is : "Very good, descend FLXXX"
"Are you able" isn't a question of if you'd like it or not, I'm not going to move you unless I have to, why would I? It creates more work and complexity for me for nothing.
So I'd suggest instead of "If you're happy with your level say no" How about "If you don't want to get descended even lower answer correctly"
Re: Pilotos... if you're asked something by ATC, answer safely..
Ditto! Just remember, some pilots like to think they are the only aircraft in the sky. The most important part of your statement is ATC doesn't move an aircraft from it's altitude, route, etc. unless there is a reason, and unless the aircraft's safety comes into play, they are required to adhere to your clearance/instruction.invertedattitude wrote:cpl_atc wrote:Exactly.CID wrote:I think the message here is that when performance is in question and it will take more than 2 seconds to confirm the ability to climb, just say "no".
Am I the only one who's a bit disturbed by that statement? Controllers do not move airplanes on a whim, and changing altitudes is usually towards the bottom on my list of options.CID wrote:I'd go so far to say that if you're happy and comfortable at the current assigned altitude, also just say no.
Yea, normally if I ask an airplane "Are you able FLXXX for traffic?" If the answer is no, I'd say about 50% or more of the time he's going to get descended, which quite often leads to "Well I guess we can make XXX after all"
To which my reply usually is : "Very good, descend FLXXX"
"Are you able" isn't a question of if you'd like it or not, I'm not going to move you unless I have to, why would I? It creates more work and complexity for me for nothing.
So I'd suggest instead of "If you're happy with your level say no" How about "If you don't want to get descended even lower answer correctly"
Re: Pilotos... if you're asked something by ATC, answer safely..
Back at you. Sometimes a simple "are you able" creates more work and complexity in the cockpit too. From the original post, it's obvious to me that ATC doesn't want to hear "I'll try". They want to hear "yes" or "no". If I can't determine a yes in a reasonable amount of time, then it's "no". If you force me to descend, that's your perogative. We're ALWAYS "able" to descend and it's not a huge chore because performance ability is guaranteed. A friggen rock can descend at will."Are you able" isn't a question of if you'd like it or not, I'm not going to move you unless I have to, why would I? It creates more work and complexity for me for nothing.
We all know that when we're in an airplane we're ATC's bitch and everyone tries to comply with ATC's requests. It might be worth your while to become familiar with the performance of many of the newer little airplanes out there. Maybe you'll learn that many of them are operating at the edge of the performance envelope and what may seem like a simple climb request may in fact involve a lot of analysis . So go ahead and tell me to descend. It may save alot of time and angst on your part.
Re: Pilotos... if you're asked something by ATC, answer safely..
From now on, I shall call you Sally........come Sally! Sit! SIT!CID wrote:We all know that when we're in an airplane we're ATC's bitch

Re: Pilotos... if you're asked something by ATC, answer safely..
The only time this is an issue is during climb or descent. Controllers are fully aware themselves when a plane is pressed to make an altitude when they've been left high and have to make like a space shuttle on approach so you shouldn't have to ask in that case. For a climb if I don't know for certain within a couple of seconds then I will tell you no. And I NEVER trust what the computer says because changes in wind and temperature often dramatically change the climb profile from the predictions.
Re: Pilotos... if you're asked something by ATC, answer safely..
[quote]it's obvious to me that ATC doesn't want to hear "I'll try". They want to hear "yes" or "no". If I can't determine a yes in a reasonable amount of time, then it's "no". If you force me to descend, that's your perogative.[/quot
I think the point trying to be made is that the chances of the aircraft meeting the restriction are directly related to the confidence in the answer to the request. If I offer an aircraft anything out of the ordinary to make their life easier and I don't get anything other than a quick affirmitave, it isn't going to happen!
I think the point trying to be made is that the chances of the aircraft meeting the restriction are directly related to the confidence in the answer to the request. If I offer an aircraft anything out of the ordinary to make their life easier and I don't get anything other than a quick affirmitave, it isn't going to happen!
Re: Pilotos... if you're asked something by ATC, answer safely..
And then there is US ATC.... a completely different experience than Canadian control.
Re: Pilotos... if you're asked something by ATC, answer safely..
The US ATC on the east coast-descend down to FL250 even though your still 400 miles from your destination!
Re: Pilotos... if you're asked something by ATC, answer safely..
AIRCRAFT PERFORMANCE DOES NOT EQUAL SEPARATION. Day one of school at NCTI. I still operate by this rule today, it has served me well.
Re: Pilotos... if you're asked something by ATC, answer safely..
until the 2nd aircraft shows uptesox2 wrote:AIRCRAFT PERFORMANCE DOES NOT EQUAL SEPARATION. Day one of school at NCTI. I still operate by this rule today, it has served me well.

- tripleseven
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Re: Pilotos... if you're asked something by ATC, answer safely..
That's funny, I've been on the receiving end of that question more than a few times coming into Winnipeg. I've even looked over at the captain, and said, "so?"Jerricho wrote:Hopefully, the controller has let you know what they are asking if you can make the restriction.
"Are you able FL230 by *wherever*......opposite direction traffic/traffic holding etc".
One I see fairly regularly is an arrival that has hung up at nosebleeds for what ever reason, with not many track miles to go straight in for the active. You tell the driver "You've got 25 miles to the field, is that sufficient for the height". Response "Uhhhh, arrh, we should be ok"............hmmm, hows about I give you a few more miles to take the "should" out of it.
Re: Pilotos... if you're asked something by ATC, answer safely..
re: track miles to landing
My understanding is that it is common practice in Europe to give this info to arrivals in terminal airspace. It would be great if we were given this info here, too. But I'm sure there are multitude "big picture" excuses why this is not possible from Nav Canada's end...training, staffing, management apathy, blah blah blah.
My understanding is that it is common practice in Europe to give this info to arrivals in terminal airspace. It would be great if we were given this info here, too. But I'm sure there are multitude "big picture" excuses why this is not possible from Nav Canada's end...training, staffing, management apathy, blah blah blah.
Re: Pilotos... if you're asked something by ATC, answer safely..
The track miles given in the UK is to ensure compliance with noise procedures for Continuous Descent Approaches (CDAs). In the London TMA, from 6000 feet down, aircraft are expected to maintain a continuous descent right up to the Localiser and down the glide path.
@TripleSeven If you're in a Lawn Dart (or similar), not a prob. An A320, not so much.
@TripleSeven If you're in a Lawn Dart (or similar), not a prob. An A320, not so much.

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Re: Pilotos... if you're asked something by ATC, answer safely..
Here here,TFE731 wrote:No disrespect but in case it hasn't occurred to you, putting computers aside, sometimes we need a minute to pull out a performance chart and actually calculate whether or not it is a doable or even feasible option. When asking for a higher altitude or faster speed there are other considerations besides simply knowing whether or not the aircraft can do it.Jerricho wrote:Heh.
You'll get to the stage in your ATC career when, if you ask "Are you able.......?", the reply will tell you all you need to know. If it isn't an immediate "Affirmative", perhaps you should be thinking twice.
If your wanting an immediate answer to an altitude change I am sorry to say I don't have a computer telling me I'm good for the new altitude.
In our cockpit a higher flight level request by ATC requires us to pull out the quick reference chart, and ask ourselves in the cockpit how close are we to optimum weight for the higher altitude? what are the cruise thrust limits and how close are we to that? Even a quick thought of the distance remaining and would it be fuel effecient to take the higher altitude or possibly the lower flight level if required and reduce speed. If we weren't expecting to climb to a higher flight level on that particular leg it could take a few extra seconds.Oil is 100 dollars a barrel, I like to help ATC out when I can, they do so much for us with the direct routings and such, but not at the expense of good sense and economics for our airline.
I had an oppurtunity to visit ATC land awhile back and I consider myself better for the experience. For example if I request something direct further down the line and there is a pause it's because you are checking ahead with the next sectors. I understand that.
I wish I could take you on board our aircraft in our flightdeck so you could benefit from the same experience.
Re: Pilotos... if you're asked something by ATC, answer safely..
If I ask a pilot are you able FLXXX, I certainly don't expect an instant response, I understand the process you guys have to go through to determine that. I am asking to solve a conflict that I see is coming up at some point in the future and the request should not really have a sense of immediacy or panic
to it. Having said that,and in line what I believe the real gist of thread was, I am expecting a yes or a no. Nothing in between. This allows me to go to plan B in plenty of time if required and not rely on reacting to achieve separation.
