This is a tough one to watch, I wasn't able to make it through till the end. Click on the "watch video now" image of the raccoon for a reality check.
http://www.furisdead.com/feat/ChineseFurFarms/
Fight fur animal rights
Moderators: North Shore, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister
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corporate joe
- Rank 8
- Posts: 754
- Joined: Mon May 29, 2006 8:18 am
- Location: the coast
Fight fur animal rights
The 3 most important things to remember when you're old:
1) Never pass an opportunity to use a washroom
2) Never waste a hard on
3) Never trust a fart
John Mayer
1) Never pass an opportunity to use a washroom
2) Never waste a hard on
3) Never trust a fart
John Mayer
Re: Fight fur animal rights
Co-jo, I think you might be barking up the wrong tree here. I don't like watching videos like that any more than anyone else on here, but I think that you will find it hard to find honest sympathy on here.
No, I don't agree with cruelty to animals, but everyone has to make a living. And for some of those people that is probably the only way they know how to make a living. So maybe instead of trying to "Speak for those who can't speak for themselves", maybe we need to try to educate PEOPLE!!!
I was raised in northern Canada, and hunting was a way of life for a lot of people there....and it still is and it will be for a very long time.
We had a large family so we had to shoot at least one moose a year in order to survive.
Now, I enjoy hunting as a hobby and I am VERY proud to say that I am raising my kids the same way.....AND THEY ARE BOTH GIRLS!!!! The oldest is 4 now and every fall, we go for walks and go grouse and rabbit hunting. They have both gone duck hunting since before they were a year old.
You might think that is cruel and inhumane, just to go hunting, but to take my little kids out there is probably atrocious to you.
I would rather have my kids out in the woods with me, spending quality time as a family, exploring the wonderful world that we live in and know so little about, than sitting in front of a TV watching some movie where they are killing people for no reason....
THINK ABOUT THAT
No, I don't agree with cruelty to animals, but everyone has to make a living. And for some of those people that is probably the only way they know how to make a living. So maybe instead of trying to "Speak for those who can't speak for themselves", maybe we need to try to educate PEOPLE!!!
I was raised in northern Canada, and hunting was a way of life for a lot of people there....and it still is and it will be for a very long time.
We had a large family so we had to shoot at least one moose a year in order to survive.
Now, I enjoy hunting as a hobby and I am VERY proud to say that I am raising my kids the same way.....AND THEY ARE BOTH GIRLS!!!! The oldest is 4 now and every fall, we go for walks and go grouse and rabbit hunting. They have both gone duck hunting since before they were a year old.
You might think that is cruel and inhumane, just to go hunting, but to take my little kids out there is probably atrocious to you.
I would rather have my kids out in the woods with me, spending quality time as a family, exploring the wonderful world that we live in and know so little about, than sitting in front of a TV watching some movie where they are killing people for no reason....
THINK ABOUT THAT
Nature is a Mother.
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corporate joe
- Rank 8
- Posts: 754
- Joined: Mon May 29, 2006 8:18 am
- Location: the coast
Re: Fight fur animal rights
1) there is a difference between shooting an animal to feed yourself and skinning one alive for a fashion accessory or torturing it unecessarily. Comparing northern Canada's hunting techniques with Chinese fur farms is like comparing apples to oranges.
2) You've said it yourself, "Educate people"! Well, spreading the word on what's behind that nice fur coat is a good way to start educating our people here. The chinese wouldn't be doing it if we weren't buying it.
3) You don't agree with unecessary cruelty to animals? Good that's the whole point of this post. The fact that "everyone needs to make a living" shouldn't nor does it contradict that belief. How good of an argument is: I don't believing in stealing other people's shit, but everyone needs to make a living.
4) Not looking for sympathy.
5) Co-joe is someone else.
2) You've said it yourself, "Educate people"! Well, spreading the word on what's behind that nice fur coat is a good way to start educating our people here. The chinese wouldn't be doing it if we weren't buying it.
3) You don't agree with unecessary cruelty to animals? Good that's the whole point of this post. The fact that "everyone needs to make a living" shouldn't nor does it contradict that belief. How good of an argument is: I don't believing in stealing other people's shit, but everyone needs to make a living.
4) Not looking for sympathy.
5) Co-joe is someone else.
The 3 most important things to remember when you're old:
1) Never pass an opportunity to use a washroom
2) Never waste a hard on
3) Never trust a fart
John Mayer
1) Never pass an opportunity to use a washroom
2) Never waste a hard on
3) Never trust a fart
John Mayer
Re: Fight fur animal rights
Sorry C-O-R-P-O-R-A-T-E J-O-E,
I still don't think that posting video's like that on here will really make any difference. Nor will stopping someone on the street and asking them if they know where there coat came from.
If you want to make a difference and change the way these animals are treated, I think that you will have to go to China and show these people a better way of making a living.....that is probably all they know.
Have you ever thought about what the people in India must think about the way we treat our cows??? The way they are put in a stock trailer and then sold at an auction like they are already just meat.
Think about the way that so many fish are killed each year....YANKED out of the water with a big steel hook in there mouth, (You might as well take a defenseless fox and drown it) thrown on the deck of the boat only to slowly die because they are not in the water.
If fish weren't slimy and had sad little eyes, I bet we would see videos of them posted on here too.
Yankee Bravo Pappa
I still don't think that posting video's like that on here will really make any difference. Nor will stopping someone on the street and asking them if they know where there coat came from.
If you want to make a difference and change the way these animals are treated, I think that you will have to go to China and show these people a better way of making a living.....that is probably all they know.
Have you ever thought about what the people in India must think about the way we treat our cows??? The way they are put in a stock trailer and then sold at an auction like they are already just meat.
Think about the way that so many fish are killed each year....YANKED out of the water with a big steel hook in there mouth, (You might as well take a defenseless fox and drown it) thrown on the deck of the boat only to slowly die because they are not in the water.
If fish weren't slimy and had sad little eyes, I bet we would see videos of them posted on here too.
Yankee Bravo Pappa
Nature is a Mother.
Re: Fight fur animal rights
I've noticed that anti-fur people always focus on the individual animal. Well when we catch an animal in
a trap to make some clothing that is only one animal gone. When they clear the land to build a factory
for your nylon jacket that is an area where there will never be wildlife again. So who is the real villain?
I come from a family that trap,hunt and fish. Mother nature is much more cruel. It's not like a cartoon
out there. Animals don't die peacefully of old age.
Wildlife's biggest enemy is urban sprall.
a trap to make some clothing that is only one animal gone. When they clear the land to build a factory
for your nylon jacket that is an area where there will never be wildlife again. So who is the real villain?
I come from a family that trap,hunt and fish. Mother nature is much more cruel. It's not like a cartoon
out there. Animals don't die peacefully of old age.
Wildlife's biggest enemy is urban sprall.
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tiggermoth
- Rank 4
- Posts: 220
- Joined: Fri May 04, 2007 11:00 pm
- Location: little bit west, little bit north
Re: Fight fur animal rights
What about the thoudands of deer/moose/elk/bear etc killed every year by hunters who ONLY take the head or antlers as a trophy? Personally I don't really care as long as the animal is not endangered, or becoming endangered due to these activities. In fact I wouldn't mind a snarling bear head on my wall 
As for the animals in these videos, I agree with Corp. Joe 100% about how it is cruel that they are skinned alive. That being said, I also agree with ybp about educating those who are actually doing this. Why? Because you have to remember where this is happening. In a country where HUMAN rights are ignored, to say nothing of animal rights. Telling those who buy the fur coats what happened to get them their stuff will not help because they will just get it from a different source that does the same thing. If these people were taught how to humanely kill the animals BEFORE skinning them, great, no more problem, more power to them. They have found a product people want, and are providing it in the form of furs specifically farmed for this purpose, just the same as a cow or chicken.
Now, how come nobody ever gets upset when a head of lettuce is ripped apart, and other veggies are tore out of their homes (the garden) and hacked up just to make somebody a salad? Plants are living things to 
Nobody cares when these very same animals crap all over the poor little bushes and flowers in the forest!! 
GO PLANT and FLOWER RIGHTS
As for the animals in these videos, I agree with Corp. Joe 100% about how it is cruel that they are skinned alive. That being said, I also agree with ybp about educating those who are actually doing this. Why? Because you have to remember where this is happening. In a country where HUMAN rights are ignored, to say nothing of animal rights. Telling those who buy the fur coats what happened to get them their stuff will not help because they will just get it from a different source that does the same thing. If these people were taught how to humanely kill the animals BEFORE skinning them, great, no more problem, more power to them. They have found a product people want, and are providing it in the form of furs specifically farmed for this purpose, just the same as a cow or chicken.
Now, how come nobody ever gets upset when a head of lettuce is ripped apart, and other veggies are tore out of their homes (the garden) and hacked up just to make somebody a salad? Plants are living things to
Nobody cares when these very same animals crap all over the poor little bushes and flowers in the forest!! GO PLANT and FLOWER RIGHTS -
corporate joe
- Rank 8
- Posts: 754
- Joined: Mon May 29, 2006 8:18 am
- Location: the coast
Re: Fight fur animal rights
Wow.
YPB:
1) you may not think posting a video like this here makes a difference. That is your opinion, I respect it. I disagree with it though. I think that things like this only continue to exist because of desensitization and ignorance. People choose to ignore. Sometimes it's good to be reminded. I don't think there is only way to change things. You've suggested the way you think would work best, and yes that's fine, but there are many other ways that can yield results. Discussing it on a public forum is one of them.
2) Ignorance is not an excuse. These people don't know better isn't an argument as far as I am concerned. These people don't see that animal bleeding on the floor? Bullshit. There's a lot of poor people in China trying to survive, and not all of them are fur farmers. It's about choice and principles. They know better, they just don't care.
3) India's view of our meat industry is a comparison that is flawed. Yes we are still talking about animal rights, but the difference is still fundamental. India may frown at us because we kill cows. But we kill cows to FEED ourselves. Even though our meat industry is far from perfect, it is still used to fill an essential need. Skinning animals while they are alive with no regards for their suffering, only to fill a cosmetic need is completely different. Like I said, if you can't see the difference between that, and our northern hunting, fishing or our meat industry, nothing I will say here will change that.
4) Don't give me this bullshit about people being poor, and skinning animals alive is what they need to do to survive. There's people all over the world with much less who get by without having to resort to such methods. People selling crack use the same argument: "I did what I had to to get by". No mister crack dealer (or chinese farmer), you tried to make more money with less effort, and to advance yourself you were willing to do it at the cost of others, with no regards for anyone but yourself, and to do so you resorted to questionable methods. Screw that kind of thinking. It's not an excuse.
Mustard:
1) Urbanization kills many more animals. Agreed. However urbanization comes at a cost, but also yields benefits. If you were to compare the benefits of urbanization vs the benefits of wearing a hat made with dog fur instead of look alike dog fur, you'd also notice that both things are completely different. But just for the sake of argument let's assume that urbanization is just as bad as furs used for cosmetic purposes. One being really really bad (urbanization killing many more animals), doesn't mean that the other one is not also bad. In other words, because there is one "bigger" problem it doesn't mean we can't address the other "smaller" problems, unless you are suggesting the problems can only be addressed one at a time. So first we get rid of urbanization, THEN we can start worrying about the fur industry? That makes no sense.
2) Mother nature is cruel. Mother nature is also a fictitious entity that does not think, unlike we humans who have choices. Mother nature is also a balanced ecosystem where the death of one being means life for many others. If you come from a background of hunter's and trappers than I assume that you above anyone else can see the difference between killing by necessity and killing for vanity. Also the way these animals are killed shows a complete disrespect for life because they are treated like objects. None of the cultures that I know of that live of the land (killing animals for meat and fur) show this type of disrespect. On the contrary, they show more respect towards the animal they have just killed more than any of us city folk. When an animal dies nothing is wasted.
Tiggermoth:
1) I partially agree with you. The hunters taking just the antlers as a trophy or killing just for sport wasting the carcass of the animal are half as guilty as the Chinese fur farmers. Even though they kill for vanity, I don't think they kill with such a disregard for life. If those hunters ripped the antlers off while the animal was still alive to save a bullet, and then let it bleed to death, then I would compare them to what the video shows.
2) I agree with you again. Countries who treat animals this way also have a disregard for human rights. Clearly these people show no respect for life or other people's suffering. I don't know about you, but that motivates me even more to get the message out and stop encouraging these people in any way, shape, or form.
3) I'll also agree with you (three in a row) that even if you were to shut down one of the operations, someone else, somewhere else would just take their place. And that's the main reason why I disagree with YPB's analysis of what would work and what wouldn't. As long as there is a demand, there will be an offer. You can't get rid of the offer, so the best way to stop this is to attack the demand. The best way to attack the demand is to talk about it and to remind people of what's behind that cute little scarf. The people doing the killing aren't doing the wearing. It's people in our "civilized nations" who open the door for this type of industry with their vanity and their inability to see the difference between hunting for food, and skinning a dog alive for a fancy hat.
YPB:
1) you may not think posting a video like this here makes a difference. That is your opinion, I respect it. I disagree with it though. I think that things like this only continue to exist because of desensitization and ignorance. People choose to ignore. Sometimes it's good to be reminded. I don't think there is only way to change things. You've suggested the way you think would work best, and yes that's fine, but there are many other ways that can yield results. Discussing it on a public forum is one of them.
2) Ignorance is not an excuse. These people don't know better isn't an argument as far as I am concerned. These people don't see that animal bleeding on the floor? Bullshit. There's a lot of poor people in China trying to survive, and not all of them are fur farmers. It's about choice and principles. They know better, they just don't care.
3) India's view of our meat industry is a comparison that is flawed. Yes we are still talking about animal rights, but the difference is still fundamental. India may frown at us because we kill cows. But we kill cows to FEED ourselves. Even though our meat industry is far from perfect, it is still used to fill an essential need. Skinning animals while they are alive with no regards for their suffering, only to fill a cosmetic need is completely different. Like I said, if you can't see the difference between that, and our northern hunting, fishing or our meat industry, nothing I will say here will change that.
4) Don't give me this bullshit about people being poor, and skinning animals alive is what they need to do to survive. There's people all over the world with much less who get by without having to resort to such methods. People selling crack use the same argument: "I did what I had to to get by". No mister crack dealer (or chinese farmer), you tried to make more money with less effort, and to advance yourself you were willing to do it at the cost of others, with no regards for anyone but yourself, and to do so you resorted to questionable methods. Screw that kind of thinking. It's not an excuse.
Mustard:
1) Urbanization kills many more animals. Agreed. However urbanization comes at a cost, but also yields benefits. If you were to compare the benefits of urbanization vs the benefits of wearing a hat made with dog fur instead of look alike dog fur, you'd also notice that both things are completely different. But just for the sake of argument let's assume that urbanization is just as bad as furs used for cosmetic purposes. One being really really bad (urbanization killing many more animals), doesn't mean that the other one is not also bad. In other words, because there is one "bigger" problem it doesn't mean we can't address the other "smaller" problems, unless you are suggesting the problems can only be addressed one at a time. So first we get rid of urbanization, THEN we can start worrying about the fur industry? That makes no sense.
2) Mother nature is cruel. Mother nature is also a fictitious entity that does not think, unlike we humans who have choices. Mother nature is also a balanced ecosystem where the death of one being means life for many others. If you come from a background of hunter's and trappers than I assume that you above anyone else can see the difference between killing by necessity and killing for vanity. Also the way these animals are killed shows a complete disrespect for life because they are treated like objects. None of the cultures that I know of that live of the land (killing animals for meat and fur) show this type of disrespect. On the contrary, they show more respect towards the animal they have just killed more than any of us city folk. When an animal dies nothing is wasted.
Tiggermoth:
1) I partially agree with you. The hunters taking just the antlers as a trophy or killing just for sport wasting the carcass of the animal are half as guilty as the Chinese fur farmers. Even though they kill for vanity, I don't think they kill with such a disregard for life. If those hunters ripped the antlers off while the animal was still alive to save a bullet, and then let it bleed to death, then I would compare them to what the video shows.
2) I agree with you again. Countries who treat animals this way also have a disregard for human rights. Clearly these people show no respect for life or other people's suffering. I don't know about you, but that motivates me even more to get the message out and stop encouraging these people in any way, shape, or form.
3) I'll also agree with you (three in a row) that even if you were to shut down one of the operations, someone else, somewhere else would just take their place. And that's the main reason why I disagree with YPB's analysis of what would work and what wouldn't. As long as there is a demand, there will be an offer. You can't get rid of the offer, so the best way to stop this is to attack the demand. The best way to attack the demand is to talk about it and to remind people of what's behind that cute little scarf. The people doing the killing aren't doing the wearing. It's people in our "civilized nations" who open the door for this type of industry with their vanity and their inability to see the difference between hunting for food, and skinning a dog alive for a fancy hat.
The 3 most important things to remember when you're old:
1) Never pass an opportunity to use a washroom
2) Never waste a hard on
3) Never trust a fart
John Mayer
1) Never pass an opportunity to use a washroom
2) Never waste a hard on
3) Never trust a fart
John Mayer
Re: Fight fur animal rights
C-J
I totally agree with you. I didn't even watch the video because I can't stand to see animals tortured. My mini rant
was not directed at you. It was directed at people that are ruining an industry they have no clue about.
If I took a muskrat downtown Toronto i bet 95% of people wouldn't even know what it is.
Natural Resources gets there information from fur harvesters. A guy driving around in a truck has no idea what the mink(for example) population is.
It also is good for the fur population in a round about way. If you are trapping muskrats there is always a good healthy population. If you stop for a year or two and go back they have dropped right off. They eat themselves out of food and fight. overpopulation also causes disease.(All things that will happen to us in the future I'm sure)
I also think it is a lot more humane to shoot a partridge for supper than to buy a chicken that spent it's entire life in a little cage.
You will find fur harvesters have much more respect for wildlife than anyone else. At least the ones I know anyway.
It doesn't matter anyway. It's becoming so over regulated that it's not worth it anymore. You almost need a briefcase
to carry all the permits and licences to go hunting now.
I totally agree with you. I didn't even watch the video because I can't stand to see animals tortured. My mini rant
was not directed at you. It was directed at people that are ruining an industry they have no clue about.
If I took a muskrat downtown Toronto i bet 95% of people wouldn't even know what it is.
Natural Resources gets there information from fur harvesters. A guy driving around in a truck has no idea what the mink(for example) population is.
It also is good for the fur population in a round about way. If you are trapping muskrats there is always a good healthy population. If you stop for a year or two and go back they have dropped right off. They eat themselves out of food and fight. overpopulation also causes disease.(All things that will happen to us in the future I'm sure)
I also think it is a lot more humane to shoot a partridge for supper than to buy a chicken that spent it's entire life in a little cage.
You will find fur harvesters have much more respect for wildlife than anyone else. At least the ones I know anyway.
It doesn't matter anyway. It's becoming so over regulated that it's not worth it anymore. You almost need a briefcase
to carry all the permits and licences to go hunting now.
