What would you do?

[FlyYukon]

Hello!

The other night a friend of mine Was flying from Victoria (CYYJ) to Boundary Bay (CZBB). It was around midnight, and good VFR. They were just switched over to talk to Vancouver Tower to pass through some airspace, when the radio went dead. After squaking 7600, they proceeded to continue to ZBB, circled about 500' above circuit altitude, and used the cell phone to call FSS to get the ARCAL at ZBB turned on. they of course landed safetly, and did a great job, with good PDM.

The question is: What would you do if you were in that situation, and there were no cellphone on board?

At that time of night, all runways, aside from YVR, are ARCAL, therefor you need your comm working to activate them to land.

[200hr Wonder]

Depends on moon conditions, if the moon is bright you can see the runway assuming you have a good landing light there is minimal risk. Otherwise off to YVR.

[Lommer]

Ok so you head to YVR. How do you approach the airport? Which runway do you use? Let's say you cross midfield @ 1500' (500' above circuit alt), where do you conduct your let-down to circuit altitude? These are all things that aren't simple answers because NORDO procedures are usually taught for "simple" airports where you don't have 2 parallel runways, so it pays to think them out explicitly before-hand. Also, it wasn't specified in the question, but you also have to consider the possibility that you radio failure is do to a complete electrical failure (I've had one of those in class C). In that case, be aware that you have no lights and no transponder, and if its a dark night it will be difficult for controllers to spot you visually.

I will note that you have one advantage in this case as it was presented: if you've talked and idented with vancouver they'll probably paint you on primary radar as soon as your transponder disappears. On the other hand, if you're inbound to the lower mainland from uncontrolled airspace and you're not talking to Vancouver centre, you really can't assume they'll have any idea you're there.

Good question FlyYukon!

[flameboy_99]

i cant remember any of the particulars of this but i think you cant start flying triangles every so often on your inbound track to yvr. hopefully somebody is watching the primary radar and realizes the pattern.

[C23flyer]

Depends on moon conditions, if the moon is bright you can see the runway assuming you have a good landing light there is minimal risk.

602.40 (1) Subject to subsection (2), no person shall conduct a landing or a take-off in a heavier-than-air aircraft at night at an aerodrome unless the aerodrome is lighted in accordance with the aerodrome lighting requirements specified in Part III.

(2) A person may conduct a landing or a take-off in a heavier-than-air aircraft at night at an aerodrome that is not lighted in accordance with the requirements referred to in subsection (1) where

(a) the flight is conducted without creating a hazard to persons or property on the surface; and

(b) the aircraft is operated

(i) for the purpose of a police operation that is conducted in the service of a police authority, or

(ii) for the purpose of saving human life.

No lights, no landing. BTW, moonlighting is not specified in Part III. How many strips use retro-reflective markers? We had them for a bit at CZBA when the ARCAL was down for construction, and they were pretty effective.

[200hr Wonder]

(ii) for the purpose of saving human life.

I think that would be a loop hole. The life being saved is the pilots!

As for the YVR, you gotta do what you gotta do. I had not thought that ModeC was NFG at the time. However you are in a 172, perhaps 26L or 26R is not the answer. You could use 30/12 and stop easily before crossing the active, thus creating a minimal risk. There is also 26A which is usually a medivac departure runway only but a 172 could land on it with out problems, it is 3000'. Also you circle around over top the control tower long enough they will find you I am sure of that.

[E-Flyer]

lol Fly Yukon, it was me and S.D. on board that flight.

I don't know how you would evaluate this, but this is how I approached the issue.

As soon as the com went dead, I tried to get an estimation of how much fuel was onboard to predict our time frame to deal with the situation. Fuel was about 1 hour 30 min leaving us 45 minutes to deal with the situation (obvs u can't trust fuel gauges, but we had been enroute for about 2 hours 45 minutes with a fuel capacity of 4hrs 20min.

I was the designated PIC, and my friend was another high time pilot on board. We divided the task up into PF and PNF as much as possible on board the Piper. He took care of the radio issue, recycling, checking volume, circuit breakers, shut the radio on and off. Then we transmitted for help on 121.5, but since it was the Tx we had difficulty with, since ARCAL wouldn't go on, 121.5 didn't hear us. Sqk 7600, called FSS, got help from Vancouver Terminal which got Vancouver Tower to switch on the radios and we were safely down on the ground. I was taking care of the flying part, calculations, our options, and we were constantly discussing and briefing eachother of what we're doing so there would be no confusion.

I thought of my options
CYPK
CYXX
CYCW
CYVR

I didn't feel comfortable putting my self further away from civilized area to fly to CYCW at 1205 where everybody's probably sleeping on bundles of hay. CYXX was closed needed arcal, CYPK was closed needed arcal, and obvs czbb didn't work. Also, isnt't there something about no airport activity around CYXX after 2200 lcl? CYVR was to be our only choice if we wouldn't receive any kind of help.

[FlyYukon]

Like I said, well handled between the two of you!

Another option I was waiting to see if anyone brought up, because I didn't even think of it, but Chilliwack (CYCW) is another option in that scenario. It is probably the only accessible constantly lit runway aside from YVR in the area, and being 47 miles away, should take no more than 30 minutes to get to.

FY

[L1011]

Yes, very well done!

In terms of the CARS involved:

(a) the flight is conducted without creating a hazard to persons or property on the surface;

I think that's legit. If you have a comm failure and you can't turn on the ARCAL but you can still see your runway just fine (whether it be moonlighting or light pollution if it's in a big city) then you're not creating a hazard to persons or property on the surface.

[Justwannafly]

6.3.2 Two-way Communications Failure

It is impossible to provide regulations and procedures applicable to all possible situations associated with a two-way communications failure. During a communications failure, when confronted by a situation not covered in the regulations, pilots are expected to exercise good judgment in whatever action they elect to take. The following procedures are the standard communications failure procedures; however, they may be superseded by specific procedures that take precedence. For example, some SID procedures may have specific published communications failure procedures.


6.3.2.1 General

Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, the pilot-in-command of an aircraft that experiences a two-way communications failure when operating in or cleared to enter controlled airspace under IFR or when operating in or cleared to enter Class B or C airspace under VFR shall:

(a) if transponder-equipped, select the transponder to reply to Mode A/3 Code 7600 interrogations;

(b) maintain a listening watch on appropriate frequencies for control messages or further clearances; acknowledge receipt of any such messages by any means available, including selective use of the normal/standby functions of transponders;

(c) attempt to contact any ATC facility or another aircraft and inform them of the difficulty and request they relay information to the ATC facility with whom communications are intended;

(d) except where specific instructions to cover an anticipated communications failure have been received from an ATC unit, comply with the procedures specified by the Minister in the CAP and the CFS; and

(e) when all above attempts have failed, attempt to contact the appropriate NAV CANADA ATS unit by means of a telephone (see COM 5.15).

1.9.7 Communication Failure

In the event of a communication failure, the pilot should adjust the transponder to reply on Code 7600 to alert ATC to the situation. This does not relieve the pilot of the requirement to comply with the appropriate communications failure procedures for IFR flight.

5.15 Phone Use During a Radio Communications Failure

Paragraph 5.11 outlines the procedures for emergency communications using VHF channels.

NAV CANADA publishes the phone numbers of ACCs, control towers, FICs and FSSs in the Canada Flight Supplement.

In the event of an in-flight radio communications failure, and only after normal communications failure procedures have been followed (see RAC 6.3.2.1), the pilot-in-command may attempt to contact the appropriate NAV CANADA ATS unit by means of phone. Before the pilot begins using a phone to contact ATS in the event of an in-flight communications failure, transponder-equipped aircraft should squawk Code 7600 (see RAC 1.9.7).

[Justwannafly]

4.4.8 Communications Failure - VFR

(a) CAR 602.138 specifies that where there is a two-way radio communication failure between the controlling air traffic control unit and a VFR aircraft while operating in Class B, Class C or Class D airspace, the pilot-in-command shall:

(i) leave the airspace

(A) where the airspace is a control zone, by landing at the aerodrome for which the control zone is established, and

(B) in any other case, by the shortest route;

(ii) where the aircraft is equipped with a transponder, set the transpoinder to Code 7600; and

(iii) inform an air traffic control unit as soon as possible of the actions taken pursuant to (i).

(b) Should the communications failure occur while operating outside of Class B, C, or D airspace precluding the pilot from obtaining the appropriate clearance to enter or establishing radio contact, and if no nearby suitable aerodrome is available, the pilot may enter the Class B, C or D airspace, continue under VFR, and shall carry out the remaining procedures listed in (a).

Should the communications failure occur and there is a suitable aerodrome nearby at which the pilot wishes to land, it is recommended that the pilot comply with the established NORDO arrival procedure outlined in RAC 4.4.5.

Pilots operating VFR in either Class E or G airspace may follow the procedures in (a) even though there is no intention to enter Class B, C, or D airspace.


4.4.5 Arrival Procedures – NORDO Aircraft

Before operating into a controlled aerodrome, pilots shall contact the control tower, inform the tower of their intentions and make arrangements for clearance through visual signals.

NOTE: Before operating within a control zone with Class C airspace, a clearance shall be obtained from the control tower.

Pilots should remain continuously alert for visual signals from the control tower.

Traffic Circuit – The pilot should approach the traffic circuit from the upwind side of the runway, join crosswind at circuit height abeam a point approximately midway between each end of the runway and join the circuit on the downwind leg. While within the circuit the pilot should conform to the speed and size of the circuit, maintaining a separation from aircraft ahead so that a landing can be made without overtaking it. If it is necessary for a flight to cross the airport prior to joining crosswind, this should be done at least 500 feet above circuit height, and descent to circuit height should be made in the upwind area of the active runway.

Final Approach – Before turning on final approach, a pilot shall check for any aircraft on a straight-in approach.

Landing Clearance – Landing clearance will be given on final approach. If landing clearance is not received, the pilot shall, except in case of emergency, pull up and make another circuit. (Landing clearance may be withheld by the tower when there are preceding aircraft which have not landed or if the runway is occupied.)

Taxiing – No taxi clearance is required after landing, except to cross any runway or to taxi back to a turn-off point. When an aircraft’s landing run carries it past the last available turn-off point, it shall proceed to the end of the runway and taxi to one side, waiting there until instruction is received to taxi back to the nearest turn-off point.

Two-way Radiocommunication Failure in VFR Flight

602.138 Where there is a two-way radiocommunication failure between the controlling air traffic control unit and a VFR aircraft while operating in Class B, Class C or Class D airspace, the pilot-in-command shall

(a) leave the airspace

(i) where the airspace is a control zone, by landing at the aerodrome for which the control zone is established, and

(ii) in any other case, by the shortest route;

(b) where the aircraft is equipped with a transponder, set the transponder to code 7600; and

(c) inform an air traffic control unit as soon as possible of the actions taken pursuant to paragraph (a).

[Justwannafly]

Yes, very well done!

In terms of the CARS involved:

(a) the flight is conducted without creating a hazard to persons or property on the surface;

I think that's legit. If you have a comm failure and you can't turn on the ARCAL but you can still see your runway just fine (whether it be moonlighting or light pollution if it's in a big city) then you're not creating a hazard to persons or property on the surface.

You obviously havn't seen E-Flyer land B4 ......just kidding he's a good pilot lol
However from what I hear, it was dark enouph that they couldn't see the runway....

If I were in that situation I would probably not gone to YVR...As there was enouph fuel to make it to Chilliwack I would have land'd in CYCW and borrowed someone's phone....failing that, I would have broken into the restaurant & baked my self a pie

[E-Flyer]

You obviously havn't seen E-Flyer land B4 ......just kidding he's a good pilot lol

lol

It's funny how the PSTAR prep comes back to hunt us down

[ScudRunner]

I would have manned up and taken her into Delta Airpark! on the .. 1 Arrival 50 AGL down the dike broken off in at knife edge and followed the road in for 25 briefly touching the wheels on the barn to get them spinning to insure a smooth landing, then Cutting the mixture to observe the good neighbor policy and making the imediate left onto the paved taxi way. All while my Cojo is keeping my beer cold and co-ordinating our return for cocktails and debreifing.

[Justwannafly]

I would have manned up and taken her into Delta Airpark! on the .. 1 Arrival 50 AGL down the dike broken off in at knife edge and followed the road in for 25 briefly touching the wheels on the barn to get them spinning to insure a smooth landing, then Cutting the mixture to observe the good neighbor policy and making the imediate left onto the paved taxi way. All while my Cojo is keeping my beer cold and co-ordinating our return for cocktails and debreifing.

By far the best answer so far

[E-Flyer]

lol u were more than welcome to say I have control wanna...

[iflyforpie]

Introduction.

[ScudRunner]

Delta Airpark has no lights and you would be breaking the law by landing there.

This is complete Bull shiite, there is a light on the barn and the club house. And in an emergency its time to put the beer down and get r done!