More and less Carbon in WJ's future?

[Rotten Apple #1]

SEATTLE, May 02, 2008 -- Boeing [NYSE:BA] recently completed certification testing of new carbon brakes designed for the Next-Generation 737 airplane family by French supplier Messier-Bugatti.

A Next-Generation 737-900ER (Extended Range) airplane is shown performing a high-speed rejected takeoff test, designed to verify that an airplane at maximum weight with greatly worn brakes can stop safely after a refused takeoff decision. Boeing will submit the test results to the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration for certification the second quarter this year. Entry into production is expected by third quarter. Boeing will offer a retrofit program for airplanes already in service.

Through a month-long test program, Boeing reached its goal to show equivalent performance between steel and carbon brakes, and verified a weight savings of 700 pounds (320 kg) compared to high-capacity steel brakes for Next-Generation 737-700/800/900ERs, and 550 pounds (250 kg) on standard-capacity steel brakes for Next-Generation 737-600/700s. Reduced weight contributes to reductions in associated fuel burn and CO2 emissions depending on airline operations.

The Messier-Bugatti carbon brakes are available as a new feature.

[Four1oh]

700 less pounds! That's the equivalent to a lot of 2nd pieces of baggage!

[invertedattitude]

Yep... 28 pieces of luggage

[Four1oh]

11 if you pack the way my wife does!

[McDoo the Irish Navigator]

700 lbs. Nice to have in the tanks as well.

[invertedattitude]

No doubt it is a plus.

I witnessed some of WJA's short RNP approaches into YHZ the other day, and I know WJA is used to them elsewhere, but my first viewing, pretty cool looking approach, good time/fuel saver as well.

[Rotten Apple #1]

Traffic and ATC permitting, the "short gate" approaches are a hoot. It will save me some occasional embarrassment in front of my F/O's, as it should reduce the number of visual approaches that I'll blow in the future tryin' to arrive at the FAF in the most efficient manner (time and fuel wise).

A couple of years ago I would have probably spouted off about losing 'hand flying' skills etc, but the mellower me now looks to making things safer and easier at work (for me and my colleague up front), and the short gates do that in spades. (I'll have to ask Rob or Nancy et al. nicely next time I'm talking to YHZ 'term' to get one)

[Four1oh]

Yep, the short gate RNP's are the best thing since sliced bread!

[invertedattitude]

A couple of years ago I would have probably spouted off about losing 'hand flying' skills etc, but the mellower me now looks to making things safer and easier at work (for me and my colleague up front), and the short gates do that in spades. (I'll have to ask Rob or Nancy et al. nicely next time I'm talking to YHZ 'term' to get one)

I'm still waiting for the first female controller to clear one of you guys via the new fix MIVAG (Short RNP on 23 I think?), which depending on your pronunciation, and especially the gender of the controller issuing could be pretty darn funny.

[Ryan Coke2]

Hilarious! Now I'm going to have to request that, even if it means taking a nasty crosswind.

Whatever happened to SEKOK and WEEDE in YVR anyway? Some PC wag decided not to have anymore fun with waypoint names--or maybe the previous namer just moved out east, where the humour is more appreciated.

[Lever]

Was a good laugh having to tell a female controller today out of YVR that we were proceeding direct IWACK.

[invertedattitude]

Was a good laugh having to tell a female controller today out of YVR that we were proceeding direct IWACK.

It's good to know at least some of these paper pushing types still have a sense of humour.

[EI-EIO]

Do Boeing have an exclusive deal on these brakes or will Airbuses etc. be able to get them too?

[Rotten Apple #1]

Do Boeing have an exclusive deal on these brakes or will Airbuses etc. be able to get them too?

I first flew the 320 in 1999. It had carbon brakes then.

[EI-EIO]

thanks for the correction Jonny. A 700kg saving - how come Boeing have waited until now to go carbon then? Is it linked to what the cool-down times are compared to steel? 738 operators like Ryanair have turnaround basically pared to how long the brakes take to cool these days.

[Realitychex]

thanks for the correction Jonny. A 700kg saving - how come Boeing have waited until now to go carbon then? Is it linked to what the cool-down times are compared to steel? 738 operators like Ryanair have turnaround basically pared to how long the brakes take to cool these days.

If they were the same price, the decision would be a no brainer. However, carbon costs far more than steel.

[Four1oh]

thanks for the correction Jonny. A 700kg saving - how come Boeing have waited until now to go carbon then? Is it linked to what the cool-down times are compared to steel? 738 operators like Ryanair have turnaround basically pared to how long the brakes take to cool these days.

the wj ng's have always had carbon brakes, this may be a newly designed carbon brake.

[Rotten Apple #1]

the wj ng's have always had carbon brakes

Put me down for a negative on that one. Here's what the Xinhua news agency said in early 2006:

http://english.people.com.cn/200602/02/ ... 39748.html
Boeing unveils carbon brake solution to reduce costs

Boeing Co. has unveiled a new carbon brake solution to reduce airframe weight and operating costs for next-generation 737 operators worldwide.

The solution could reduce up to 300 kilograms in airplane weight and increase the wear life twice at maximum, thus lower maintenance and operating costs, Mike Delaney, a 737 chief project engineer, said here Wednesday.

Carbon brakes with less weight offer the same stopping performance as steel brakes, which ultimately increases fuel efficiency," said Delaney.

The carbon brakes will be available for deliveries starting in early 2008.


NOTE: If in fact WJ had carbon brakes in the fleet, there would no doubt be specific reference in the SOP's to the unique operating and wear characteristics of carbon brakes, notably that it is the number of brake applications and not the duration (heat build up) that determines wear. As there is no such guidance (like in A320/330/340 SOPs), the conclusion would seem sound that WJ currently has conventional steel brakes.

Back when the NG was on the drawing board, oil was nowhere at its current stratospheric price. Assuming the payload targets were met, the additional cost of developing carbon brakes for the airplane probably outweighed any cost savings due to lower weight (due to the cheap price of oil at the time).

Finally, had the aircraft been a completely new design, it might have come out of the plant with the latest and greatest brakes. Instead Boeing strapped on very robust brakes (two customer options IIRC) that typically present no turnaround issues as presented above. If you research the 320's experience with brakes, you'll find there's a reason they came standard with brake temperature monitoring-they need it.

[Four1oh]

"I reserve the right to stand corrected. "
thanks for the info, I wish I could remember who told me the NG's had carbon brakes... So then, why then do the NG's have no real cooling issues/restrictions, except in the case of the RTO? The 200's had steel brakes, and far more limitations than the bigger, heavier NG's. I'm going with a better designed steel brake as my own answer to that question since I guess 'carbon' isn't an option...

[Rotten Apple #1]

It's been awhile, but I seem to recall that the limitation for takeoff for the 320 was a max brake temperature of 300 deg C. I also remember watching the brakes taking their time to cool following a heavy braking event (non-RTO) on a non-infrequent basis.

The NG's brakes as equipped at WJ are impressive. I've looked at the charts and can't find any situations where there would be any problems with brake temps in routine operations. Was doing the preflight on the airplane today and had the idea of picking up one of those Infrared Thermometers that the 7-11 guys use to make sure my hot dog has been at the right temperature all morning, and seeing if you pointed it at the brake cover plates if it would register the temperature.

If I got really stuck for something stupid to do with my PS cheque that is...

Of course it would give me another gadget to store on the WestJet Pilot Utility Belt that I'm designing (In addition to the Blackberry, Blackberry Charger, Secret Signalling device, my tattered copy of 'The Collected Snide Remarks of Tim Morgan About Commuters', etc etc).

Now for the trivia:

Had a look at the Flight Planning and Performance Manual (FPPM) for WJ last night and found that our 600's are equipped with what Boeing refers to as Category D brakes, our 700's have Category A brakes, and the 800's Category C brakes. No descriptions supplied.

The AFM onboard the aircraft (section 4, page 15) shows as being certified with two brake options for the 600, three options for the 700, and one on the 800.

Can't find one instance in any of the books above (nor FOM, FCTM, or MEL) of the words 'steel' and 'brakes' appearing in the same sentence.

[Realitychex]

It's been awhile, but I seem to recall that the limitation for takeoff for the 320 was a max brake temperature of 300 deg C. I also remember watching the brakes taking their time to cool following a heavy braking event (non-RTO) on a non-infrequent basis.

The NG's brakes as equipped at WJ are impressive. I've looked at the charts and can't find any situations where there would be any problems with brake temps in routine operations. Was doing the preflight on the airplane today and had the idea of picking up one of those Infrared Thermometers that the 7-11 guys use to make sure my hot dog has been at the right temperature all morning, and seeing if you pointed it at the brake cover plates if it would register the temperature.

If I got really stuck for something stupid to do with my PS cheque that is...

Of course it would give me another gadget to store on the WestJet Pilot Utility Belt that I'm designing (In addition to the Blackberry, Blackberry Charger, Secret Signalling device, my tattered copy of 'The Collected Snide Remarks of Tim Morgan About Commuters', etc etc).

Now for the trivia:

Had a look at the Flight Planning and Performance Manual (FPPM) for WJ last night and found that our 600's are equipped with what Boeing refers to as Category D brakes, our 700's have Category A brakes, and the 800's Category C brakes. No descriptions supplied.

The AFM onboard the aircraft (section 4, page 15) shows as being certified with two brake options for the 600, three options for the 700, and one on the 800.

Can't find one instance in any of the books above (nor FOM, FCTM, or MEL) of the words 'steel' and 'brakes' appearing in the same sentence.

Without Tim Morgan, WJ would probably not exist.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

[Rotten Apple #1]

Realitychex, as you said, without Tim Morgan,

WJ would probably not exist.

Yup, and if Tim Morgan had his way now, ,

WJ would probably not exist.

Consider it smoked. (Although I hope the humour of the comment was not lost on you; I wanted to attend more than one pilot meeting as the 'unknown commuter' with a paper bag over my face and eyeholes cut out. But that would have conflicted with the 'unknown ex-C3 pilot' bag I was already wearing).

I have no thoughts for or against Tim. Don't know the man, never had a conversation with him, just saw him talk a few times. He had a point of view, and I don't think he minded making it known. He obviously did a lot at WestJet. Who knows, he might have even originated the phrase we espouse at WJ that "We take our jobs seriously, but not ourselves".

Simple fact is his book beat out my copies of Steve Smith's "Integrating Yourself into new Surroundings", Don Bell's "You Got Some Stinkin' Thinkin' There" and Mark Hill's "Why do Tomorrow What You Could Do Today 276,459 times With a Software Program".

P.S. I have Volume 2 of Tim's book.

[Rotten Apple #1]

Without Tim Morgan, WJ would probably not exist.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

Since you brought up the hypothetical, I bit.

Gedankenexperiment: WJ does not exist

Personal ramifications:

I would probably be on airline number 4 (or 5) somewhere else, living in a different house in a different town in a different province, wearing a different uniform, still happy going to work, (as in airlines 1 through 3), carrying out different SOP's, drinking bad coffee out of different cups at 39,000 feet, watching Girls Gone Wild advertorials late at night in different hotels, wishing for more time off as always, still bitching about taxes, writing crap under a different section on Avcanada,...but all the while being happy to be gainfully employed in my chosen profession.

Seems pretty much a continuation of the first half of my aviation career.

Now leaving the hypothetical.

[W5]

de-icing fluid poses risk to carbon brakes

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... rakes.html