I figured I'd post this one in both the flight training forum and in the bush forum.

Anyone have an idea as to who offers the cheapest float rating?

I've inquired to numerous places and the prices all seem to vary considerably.

I want to do the 7hr course but I'm on a bit of a budget.

Thanks,

FF

A word of advice....

Don't cheap out on anything in aviation....

I don't understand why anyone would want to do a 7 hour rating.... nobody will allow you to rent a floatplane, and nobody would allow you to work for them on floats with 7 hours in their log....

Why don't you call Cat Driver, he might be able to help you out and he's an expirienced float driver....

Foo where are you located? That will really decide your costs because I doubt you would be willing to travel across the country just to save $10 per flight hour. If you are in Northwestern Ontario the Dryden Flying Club would probably be your best bet. PM me if you are in this area!

Just get the endorsement on your license, then go get a job. Right now is the perfect time to get some flights, freight, empty legs. Don't pay for any more than the basics, then get to work!

Yeah you can't do much with 7hrs. I got my rating in 2002 and managed to still rent a 172XP on floats, but insurance took off after the company had a couple accidents.

7hrs only taught me that there was a whole pile I didn't know about float flying.

iflyforpie wrote:7hrs only taught me that there was a whole pile I didn't know about float flying.

Well said

I think a rating with the minimum hours is ok. Even if you took 50 hours and paid the big bucks, you wouldn't know much more. Get the rating and a job asap.

Good luck!

Get the bare minimum and then go and get a job. Your learning curve for the 50 hour "bush course" will be very shallow as I can't see how much you'll learn going dock to dock on screaming VFR days with no wind. Do the 7 hour course, land a job, and you'll learn a ton more flogging around on revenue flights by yourself (or right seat of a twotter). But - I guess I'm getting off topic!! Get something close to home, as that will save you bucks in the long run! Good luck!

(or right seat of a twotter). But - I guess I'm getting off topic!!

You're not off topic Grasshopper because he can be hired by Air Tindi for instance, or Arctic Sunwest and many other Twotter operators. That's real good right seat time, most of it in the Arctic or elsewhere. Actually, time in a Twotter is a passport for the rest of the world.

any idea about Tindi or Arctic mins ?

If I were given the choice of minimum time for a T.O. F.O. I would take the 7 hour pilot.

That way she would have no bad habits to unlearn.

SQ,

Your time, experience and personnality are exactly what Tindi and lots of operators are looking for. Be prepared to work the ramp at times but they will respect you and treat you well ( I mean Tindi cause I know them ).

You will fly floats in the most wonderful part of the world and will enjoy the right seat with any captain there. Do yourself and themself a favor and apply, and use your brand new float rating. This of course, if your family condition allows you to go away from home.

Don't forget to tell Pierre-Étienne that you got a job.

Gilles

I used to teach the 7 hour course for Winnipeg Aviation out of Selkirk float base but im not sure if they are doing it this summer? You'd have to check with them. It cost somewhere around $1700 for the 7 hour endorsement. Ya 7 hours doesn't give much time to teach anything, basically get the quick over view on everything.

KenoraPilot wrote:I used to teach the 7 hour course for Winnipeg Aviation out of Selkirk float base but im not sure if they are doing it this summer? You'd have to check with them. It cost somewhere around $1700 for the 7 hour endorsement. Ya 7 hours doesn't give much time to teach anything, basically get the quick over view on everything.

How is it that a guy with 300 total hours is "teaching" float ratings. What have you learned about flying floats that can be considered worth $1700 if you haven't even left the schoolyard yourself?

How is it that a guy with 300 total hours is "teaching" float ratings. What have you learned about flying floats that can be considered worth $1700 if you haven't even left the schoolyard yourself?

You have some guys saying get your 7 hours and get the minimum at a cheap cost and than go learn from an operator. And other guys say don't cheap out and get a good 50 hour course from an experienced guy.

In 7 hours even an experienced guy couldn't teach anything more than the basics because there isn't enough time. A 300 hour pilot with 100 hours on floats or less can be a way better communicater and undertand how to teach much better and could potentially do a better job or just as equal.

I believe that when it comes to a 7 hour float rating, there is so little time to teach everything you would like to, so as a student go in knowing that your just getting the bare minimum and focus on cost and keep it down.

Same goes with a MIFR ticket, I'm not going to go file single pilot in actual IMC the day after I get my rating. I'm going to focus on an FTU that can train me to the standard, keep my costs down and than I will go find an operator that will put me right seat and give me time to learn the ropes and the real world.

Now if I planned on going and filing single pilot in IMC I'd want to make sure I had some above standard training so I wouldn't have a really bad trip. Same with the float, if I wanted to start using my float rating right away I'd want to have some above standard training. But if I knew I was going to be under the watch of a decent operator that wanted to train me up their way in the first place, well than the minimum is all I need.

I just don't like the attitude of guys saying "what the hell do you know, you've got 50 or however little hours" - I'm providing a service and am honest about what I do and my experience, this product appeals to cetain people, just because it doesn't appeal to you, why would you have such a negative opinion about another float pilot trying to make a go in the industry? The fact is no one is in the schoolyard for long and if thats your attitude than you never left the school yard in the first place.

I proudly say I issued my first float rating when I had 56 hours of float time on a 172 and that person is doing really well now and better off than I am. Would he tell me I'm still in the school yard???? Maybe if he was 12.

Good post Nofix,

In the mid seventies I was a Cl 11 instructor and our flying school fleet consisted in a 150 and a 172 on wheels all year round, plus an Aeronca Chief and a Piper Clipper which were on floats in summer and straight skis in winter.

In summer I was teaching flying on floats because floats was our landing gear. I wasn't giving a float rating. Our plane was on floats. The seaplane students who wished to fly skis or wheels had to do their landplane rating.

I did not need 5,000 hours on floats or skis to teach them how to operate in and out of our base. They were learning to fly with the landing gear they had.

floatman wrote: How is it that a guy with 300 total hours is "teaching" float ratings. What have you learned about flying floats that can be considered worth $1700 if you haven't even left the schoolyard yourself?

What is a 3000 or 30000 hour pilot going to teach in the same time period? How to fix an external load? How Wipline floats can be overloaded more than Edos on a certain aircraft?

The float rating is a foundation to build other experiences on. It gives you enough experience to launch, dock, taxi, takeoff, and land a float plane on big lakes with light loads on good days. A 300 hour float pilot will have the polish to do it and teach it safely and effectively, but none of the bad habits that invariably form after several thousand hours that can be deadly to a 200 hour wonder.

I have a whopping 14 hours of float time so I might be totally off the mark here, but I know from doing my rating I learned more from the low time pilots about basic float flying than the most experienced ones simply because they could freshly relate their learning experiences and remember the principles and techniques that have long been automatic for a seasoned pilot.

More advanced training (either on the line or a bush pilot course) should certainly be done by a more experienced pilot and not someone who has never been in the bush.

Same with the float, if I wanted to start using my float rating right away I'd want to have some above standard training.

I've done some training myself. Some with guys at about 300 hours. When I look back and picture any one of them, including the best of them, giving instruction at that level of their proficiency I get a little concerned for the students that would be on the recieving end.

I have also checked guys with a couple of thousand hours and several hundred hours on floats and still found them to be lacking in terms of good skills and water sense that you would expect.

No body is saying you're no good there champ... just questioning what value and real world experience the trainee is getting for their couple of thousand bucks when they get instruction from someone who has never been a working float pilot... and no... sorry.. a guy who has only given float ratings at 56 hours is not a "working float pilot". You were just a guy with a float rating riding around with students, padding your float time while someone else fed the meter.

I have a whopping 14 hours of float time so I might be totally off the mark here, but I know from doing my rating I learned more from the low time pilots about basic float flying than the most experienced ones simply because they could freshly relate their learning experiences and remember the principles and techniques that have long been automatic for a seasoned pilot

Off the mark? In my opinion.. yes.

At $250 bucks an hour, I for one would expect that I would be getting a little more than some guy with a fresh stamp on his licence riding around with me telling me to keep the nose up when I touch down. I mean come on.. how many actual glassy water landings has a guy done in his first 40 hours? How many times has he taken off down wind? How many times has he gone around at the last second when he spots a dead head? How many times has he bounced a landing in gusty conditions and had to react and save his landing from disaster?

I got my instruction from crusty bush pilots with foul mouths and work boots who know what a plane can do. They demonstrated things to me in 7 hours that have stuck with me and that I have taught to other suitable candidates in the first 7 hours of their training, things that the "instructors" in question are probably unfamilliar with to this day. You show me a 300 hour pilot that can teach floats better than me and I will eat the airplane he flies, one rivet at a time.

More advanced training (either on the line or a bush pilot course) should certainly be done by a more experienced pilot and not someone who has never been in the bush.

Wouldn't it make sense to have this type of teacher do the rating training as well?

Help a dumb out of the loop guy like myself understand something.....what exactly do these whiz kids who hold the flight instructors rating right out of their commercial training know about teaching that the high time pilots don't know?

The learning factors or laws or whatever buzz word is used now?

It depends on how good of a teacher he is. The bush guy teaching me was-in the first hour-going off about float rolls, popping the flaps, and step turns and how "..the most important thing about floats is...the most important thing about floats is..."-things I don't remember, never used, and certainly didn't help me get my rating on a 50 mile long lake in a lightly loaded aircraft. It was information overload and basically convinced me I was entering the wrong field. I only had 60 hours at the time all on land planes.

As far as experiences, where I trained I had real glassy water experience pretty much every day depending on which section of the lake we used since there are several sheltered areas. I had to go around several times or abort a takeoff because a boat decided to cut me off or debris was in the way.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm sure there are a lot of great high time float instructors out there. They just have to read their students and moderate what they teach until the student is ready to go to the next level.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm sure there are a lot of great high time float instructors out there. They just have to read their students and moderate what they teach until the student is ready to go to the next level

.

How much time do you have teaching pilots how to fly floats?

To the original poster:

If you're in Ontario, try Elmhirst's Resort on Rice Lake. I believe around $1200 done on a PA-12 (that was 5 years ago). You'll be done in a day and half.

Here is a question that needs to be examined.

If a pilot gets a sea plane rating and never experiences glassy water conditions during their training is that O.K. ?

how much of your 300 hrs is floats kenorapilot? 50 mabe? get the rating, get a job and learn. i think the 50hr course might be good for a private guy, but for someone want to fly floats as a job, it is a total waste of time and money as you will be trained from your employer, not many operators will turn loose a fresh pilot with 50hrs.

I think we can all agree though, 7 hours is not enough for a float rating, but that topic has been pounded to death.

Cat Driver wrote:Here is a question that needs to be examined.

If a pilot gets a sea plane rating and never experiences glassy water conditions during their training is that O.K. ?

I personally don't issue a rating without ensuring glassy water is experienced and completed properly to the Seaplane Instructor Guide:

Glassy Water Approach and Landing
Essential Background Knowledge
Explain that most seaplanes will dig (pitch down) if landed in a level attitude
especially if the water is glassy or only has a slight ripple. The pitch down is
more severe if the airplane is loaded near its most forward centre of gravity.
Explain that the surface of glassy water is impossible to see and therefore
approaches and landings must be planned alongside a shoreline wherever
possible.
Explain that a glassy water landing may take as much as 3 to 4 times the
normal distance.
Advice to Instructors
· Have the student hold a constant attitude while decreasing and increasing
rate of descent. Use the same technique for touch and go landings - hold a
constant attitude throughout, use full power for take-off, reduce power to
descend, increase power to flatten the descent, all in the landing attitude.
This is one of the most important exercises that the student must master.
· No attempt should be made to land on glassy water in the middle of a lake.
Always approach and land alongside the shoreline, if at all possible.
· If possible, have students practice flaring at 50 feet more or less above the
surface in a light breeze (no turbulence) and practice attitude-power control
until touchdown before glassy water is attempted.
· Every effort should be made to do glassy water training in real glassy
water conditions, otherwise the exercise will have to be simulated. Real
glassy water conditions are most often found in the early morning or late
evening.
· Simulate the glassy water approach at altitude before attempting one on
water.
Instruction and Student Practice
Demonstrate how to assess the glassy water situation.
Demonstrate the glassy water approach and landing, including
· choosing the best approach path
· controlling descent
· cross-checking the shoreline
· touching down
· attitude and power after touchdown

Have the student practise glassy water approaches and landings.

How many 10 000 hour float pilots teaching guys have even read that Guide or know what a pdf file is and how to download it from the TC website?!?!?!?!
Thats what TC tells me to do in 7 hours, so thats what I do, plane and simple.

Another question to - Is it okay for an IFR rating to be issued without ever flying in IMC or filing IFR????

Just some food for thought, I'm not out to start arguements.