Isn't it interesting that about a year or so ago everyone was convinced that schools could not add another ten dollars to the hourly rate to give an instructor enough money to live above the level of a homeless in Canada.
Yet a year or so later fuel costs twenty dollars more per hour and the schools are still swamped with people learning to fly.
The instructor pay farce.
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Cat Driver
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The instructor pay farce.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Re: The instructor pay farce.
It's great that instructors are making a decent wage. That being said... We have priced out a lot of the recreational pilot market. The reason the wage has gone up is simply because the market for pilot jobs is excellent and schools are experiencing difficulty retaining instructors. There is a huge influx of international students and a huge demand for flight instructors with a short supply. In a few years, when we turn back to rental pilots again to sustain our industry, schools will have to get "creative" again so that their pricing isn't prohibitive to your average weekend warrior. The only people flight training for fun right now are the wealthy.
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Cat Driver
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Re: The instructor pay farce.
Chit looks like I'm out of touch once again as I thought flight instructors were working for peanuts.
Disregard my post and congratulations on finally getting paid a good wage.
Disregard my post and congratulations on finally getting paid a good wage.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Re: The instructor pay farce.
Well put Cat. And with the rising fuel costs, it's just another reason FTU "can't" pay their instructors more.Cat Driver wrote:Isn't it interesting that about a year or so ago everyone was convinced that schools could not add another ten dollars to the hourly rate to give an instructor enough money to live above the level of a homeless in Canada.
Yet a year or so later fuel costs twenty dollars more per hour and the schools are still swamped with people learning to fly.
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Cat Driver
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Re: The instructor pay farce.
Yeh, there is just no denying that this fuel price thing just may really get out of hand.
What I was trying to get at was a few years ago everyone kept saying that schools could not add ten dollars per hour to the cost so they could give it to the instructors, that was pure B.S. because adding twenty dollars an hour for fuel has not brought training to a grinding halt.
The truth is the industry culture is to hire inexperienced young kids and pay them peanuts...then the kids get discouraged because they are beat over the head for something they can't help...being young with no experience..it is fu.king disgusting in my opinion but my opinion doesn't amount to much in this industry.
What I was trying to get at was a few years ago everyone kept saying that schools could not add ten dollars per hour to the cost so they could give it to the instructors, that was pure B.S. because adding twenty dollars an hour for fuel has not brought training to a grinding halt.
The truth is the industry culture is to hire inexperienced young kids and pay them peanuts...then the kids get discouraged because they are beat over the head for something they can't help...being young with no experience..it is fu.king disgusting in my opinion but my opinion doesn't amount to much in this industry.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Re: The instructor pay farce.
Hey, if they could get away with putting 200 hour guys on 747's they would.. oh wait.. they do in Europe! Don't you think this trend is going to continue up the ladder?
... ah.. I can see it now... the guys nearing retirement will probably take it because the alternative will be to take a pay cut. The music for the musical chairs will play until most of the guys with a lot of experience will move out of the left seats, guys from the right will move to the left and so on... which will leave a void for entry level positions. Since there's still a stigma on 200 hour guys the airlines will go after anyone with a pulse and 500+ hours. The kicker? An instructor with 500 hours is still making $20-25/hour so if they get to fly some heavy iron and get paid that... woohoo!
But, as Cat said... we're not exactly skilled labor. We can't organize at the lower levels and we'll cut each others throats to fly at FL180. Between that and the looming shit hitting the fan... I can see guys with 2000+ hours taking pay cuts to keep a "secure" job at Jazz or something else unionized.
... ah.. I can see it now... the guys nearing retirement will probably take it because the alternative will be to take a pay cut. The music for the musical chairs will play until most of the guys with a lot of experience will move out of the left seats, guys from the right will move to the left and so on... which will leave a void for entry level positions. Since there's still a stigma on 200 hour guys the airlines will go after anyone with a pulse and 500+ hours. The kicker? An instructor with 500 hours is still making $20-25/hour so if they get to fly some heavy iron and get paid that... woohoo!
But, as Cat said... we're not exactly skilled labor. We can't organize at the lower levels and we'll cut each others throats to fly at FL180. Between that and the looming shit hitting the fan... I can see guys with 2000+ hours taking pay cuts to keep a "secure" job at Jazz or something else unionized.
Every war when it comes, or before it comes, is represented not as a war but as an act of self-defense against a homicidal maniac. George Orwell
Disclaimer: The above post was not meant to offend anyone.
Disclaimer: The above post was not meant to offend anyone.
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iflyforpie
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Re: The instructor pay farce.
I don't think it has to do with supply and demand of flight training and and students; it has to do with supply and demand of flight instructors and FTUs.
Low time pilots are (or were a few years ago) a dime a dozen, willing to work for $20/flight hour and $10/hr base pay just so they can fly, build hours, and go on to something better.
Now with the influx of foreign students and the industry boom, FTUs are going to have to pay more if they plan on attracting even transient Class 3 and 4 instructors.
I've always believed in any business it is better to charge higher and pay better so employee turnover isn't so high and quality remains consistent. The best places to go are never the cheapest.
Low time pilots are (or were a few years ago) a dime a dozen, willing to work for $20/flight hour and $10/hr base pay just so they can fly, build hours, and go on to something better.
Now with the influx of foreign students and the industry boom, FTUs are going to have to pay more if they plan on attracting even transient Class 3 and 4 instructors.
I've always believed in any business it is better to charge higher and pay better so employee turnover isn't so high and quality remains consistent. The best places to go are never the cheapest.
Geez did I say that....? Or just think it....?
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Cat Driver
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Re: The instructor pay farce.
Flight schools operate under the same Neandrathal mentality as far too many bush flying operations do.
The idiots who over load and fly poorly maintained airplanes set the benchmark for what can be charged and thereby drive most everyone else down to their level.
If a good operator charges enough money to run a good service they are always losing business to the Neandrathals.
Same thing in the flight training business if you charge what it takes to run a good operation the Neandrathals who you are competing against get the business.
That was one of the reasons I finally gave up on owning schools and charter businesses....
Until that mentality is gotten rid of you are going to have the same slave labor pay offered to kids who desperately want to be commercial pilots.
The idiots who over load and fly poorly maintained airplanes set the benchmark for what can be charged and thereby drive most everyone else down to their level.
If a good operator charges enough money to run a good service they are always losing business to the Neandrathals.
Same thing in the flight training business if you charge what it takes to run a good operation the Neandrathals who you are competing against get the business.
That was one of the reasons I finally gave up on owning schools and charter businesses....
Until that mentality is gotten rid of you are going to have the same slave labor pay offered to kids who desperately want to be commercial pilots.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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iflyforpie
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Re: The instructor pay farce.
What, they're paying? I was just going to fly for freeCat Driver wrote: Until that mentality is gotten rid of you are going to have the same slave labor pay offered to kids who desperately want to be commercial pilots.
Geez did I say that....? Or just think it....?
Re: The instructor pay farce.
We're paying, we have medical/dental, we need instructors, and we're not bad people to work for.
But please know your stuff!
The other side of the coin (pun?) is that it is the instructor's responsibility to learn and continue to learn as much a possible and thereby justify being paid more and more by becoming better and better at doing the job.
It is not enough to pass the TC flight test, that's only a step...
Being a flying instructor is a rewarding profession, you are given a lot of responsibility, and a lot of autonomy.
It's sometimes better than it is for the poor people who are told to go and fly a banged up old Navajo with uncertain engines, and snagged avionics in to the BC wilderness at night in IFR during the winter.
Here you can fly modern aeroplanes with reliable engines (some with the modern Rotax 912), and even the latest gizmos such as the G1000, in a friendly environment, and I'll never send you off in one of our aeroplanes if I agree the weather is too risky!
That doesn't mean we won't fly in the rain, or wind like one outfit here... I don't like PPLs saying they've never flown in the rain because they learned at ********
Even though our company pays good rates, I still think you should have an equal amount of enjoyment out of your job, that's why we started in the first place isn't it? Otherwise we'd all be lawyers or something else....
But please know your stuff!
The other side of the coin (pun?) is that it is the instructor's responsibility to learn and continue to learn as much a possible and thereby justify being paid more and more by becoming better and better at doing the job.
It is not enough to pass the TC flight test, that's only a step...
Being a flying instructor is a rewarding profession, you are given a lot of responsibility, and a lot of autonomy.
It's sometimes better than it is for the poor people who are told to go and fly a banged up old Navajo with uncertain engines, and snagged avionics in to the BC wilderness at night in IFR during the winter.
Here you can fly modern aeroplanes with reliable engines (some with the modern Rotax 912), and even the latest gizmos such as the G1000, in a friendly environment, and I'll never send you off in one of our aeroplanes if I agree the weather is too risky!
That doesn't mean we won't fly in the rain, or wind like one outfit here... I don't like PPLs saying they've never flown in the rain because they learned at ********
Even though our company pays good rates, I still think you should have an equal amount of enjoyment out of your job, that's why we started in the first place isn't it? Otherwise we'd all be lawyers or something else....
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Cat Driver
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Re: The instructor pay farce.
Michael, being the best flying instructor one can be is rising to the highest plateau of aviation.
And that person should be paid accordingly.
I think you are on the right track from what I have seen of what you are trying to do.
..
And that person should be paid accordingly.
I think you are on the right track from what I have seen of what you are trying to do.
..
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Re: The instructor pay farce.
Michael; are you short instructors period or class 3+? Last time I remember you saying you had enough Class 4's 
How was Thailand?
How was Thailand?Every war when it comes, or before it comes, is represented not as a war but as an act of self-defense against a homicidal maniac. George Orwell
Disclaimer: The above post was not meant to offend anyone.
Disclaimer: The above post was not meant to offend anyone.
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SQ
Re: The instructor pay farce.
they also increased A/C priceseveryone kept saying that schools could not add ten dollars per hour to the cost so they could give it to the instructors, that was pure B.S. because adding twenty dollars an hour for fuel has not brought training to a grinding halt
Michael IP, what wage do you propose to your class iv instructor ?
Re: The instructor pay farce.
We're paying $500 a month and $25 an hour for a Class IV at the moment with health and dental.
We are working on a bonus scheme as well so if the turnover increases there's an additional benefit to the instructors.
Instructors can make or break a school, if they are good with their customer service then we do good with the business and so they should be rewarded for it.
I note that at another school many instructors have let their ratings lapse as they don't need them to do IFR and Multi training. The problem then comes for the students who want to apply this training towards their CPLs.
They say "I can't afford $1,000 to do a renewal".
Here we give each instructor 2 hours training and experience in each of the aircraft types instructed in, and we'll help an instructor who has established a good reputation with us to renew the rating when it comes due.
We are working on a bonus scheme as well so if the turnover increases there's an additional benefit to the instructors.
Instructors can make or break a school, if they are good with their customer service then we do good with the business and so they should be rewarded for it.
I note that at another school many instructors have let their ratings lapse as they don't need them to do IFR and Multi training. The problem then comes for the students who want to apply this training towards their CPLs.
They say "I can't afford $1,000 to do a renewal".
Here we give each instructor 2 hours training and experience in each of the aircraft types instructed in, and we'll help an instructor who has established a good reputation with us to renew the rating when it comes due.
Re: The instructor pay farce.
I don't know if it's everywhere but Calgary has seen a huge influx of foreign students lately. I'm thinking less Canadians can afford to learn to fly so more foreign students are imported.Cat Driver wrote:Isn't it interesting that about a year or so ago everyone was convinced that schools could not add another ten dollars to the hourly rate to give an instructor enough money to live above the level of a homeless in Canada.
Yet a year or so later fuel costs twenty dollars more per hour and the schools are still swamped with people learning to fly.
I'm interested to know how the English proficiency testing is done in regards to these foreign students.
.... wacko looks over post... notes it resembles a hijack... shrugs... presses submit button
Every war when it comes, or before it comes, is represented not as a war but as an act of self-defense against a homicidal maniac. George Orwell
Disclaimer: The above post was not meant to offend anyone.
Disclaimer: The above post was not meant to offend anyone.
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iflyforpie
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Re: The instructor pay farce.
Assuming 600 hrs per year and year round employment that is only $21,000/yr.MichaelP wrote:We're paying $500 a month and $25 an hour for a Class IV at the moment with health and dental.
Geez did I say that....? Or just think it....?
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SQ
Re: The instructor pay farce.
don't forget health and dental, it can make a difference if your student decide to forget the flare on his first landing and you kiss the yokeiflyforpie wrote:Assuming 600 hrs per year and year round employment that is only $21,000/yr.MichaelP wrote:We're paying $500 a month and $25 an hour for a Class IV at the moment with health and dental.
Re: The instructor pay farce.
How so? Assuming 20 hour weeks (being pessimistic) 20*25*50 = $26,000 + $6000 = $32,000iflyforpie wrote:Assuming 600 hrs per year and year round employment that is only $21,000/yr.MichaelP wrote:We're paying $500 a month and $25 an hour for a Class IV at the moment with health and dental.
With 30 hour weeks that goes up to $45,000
Re: The instructor pay farce.
Actually, what IFFP said was correct.alctel wrote:How so? Assuming 20 hour weeks (being pessimistic) 20*25*50 = $26,000 + $6000 = $32,000iflyforpie wrote:Assuming 600 hrs per year and year round employment that is only $21,000/yr.MichaelP wrote:We're paying $500 a month and $25 an hour for a Class IV at the moment with health and dental.
With 30 hour weeks that goes up to $45,000
And are you honestly going to fly 20-30 hours a week every single week? You'll probably be lucky to get that much time in a month in the winter.
30h/week * 52 weeks = 1560hours a year
Good luck with that!
Re: The instructor pay farce.
If that is all you are going to work that is all you should get!Assuming 600 hrs per year and year round employment that is only $21,000/yr.
600 hours in one year is only 12 hours a week!
Since we learn to fly on the ground, we are wasting the student's money if all they get from us is the flying bit, no wonder the Canadian average is over 70 hours for a PPL!
Don't forget that we are supposed to do preflight and post flight briefings, and even groundschooling of the students.
If each student requires 45 hours of our time in the air, 30 hours groundschool, 600 hours is say 10 students, then the instructor should get $18,750 for putting ten students through their licences in a year, plus $6,000 (@$500 monthly), that's $24,750 for 750 hours work in 50 weeks or 15 hours per week. That's equivalent to $33 an hour, not bad for an apprentice!
Then of course if an instructor is still a Class IV after ten of his/her students have completed their licences, there's something wrong with that picture!
A Class III will get more, a Class II even more, and a Class I would get a regal salary!
I think that we are offering an above average income, benefits, and a good atmosphere.
Re: The instructor pay farce.
What's sad though is how this is an above average salary, and it's still complete crap. 25K a year is disgusting.MichaelP wrote:
I think that we are offering an above average income, benefits, and a good atmosphere.
Re: The instructor pay farce.
I agree entirely, but then if all you do is 15 hours work a week I don't think it's bad at all!What's sad though is how this is an above average salary, and it's still complete crap. 25K a year is disgusting.
Supposing you put in 30 hours a week in the summer, then you'll earn a lot more!
Then again you could go and fly a Beech 1900 and get paid worse for a lot more hours work.
One guy was going to quit the Beech 1900 job to make more money working for us... He is a Class II . The company offered him another $1,000 a month to stay and fly their 1900s, plus more time off etc... CPL's here do not know what they are now worth!
Re: The instructor pay farce.
I think Michaels offer is fine (especially medical and dental, never got that with any of my offers) I was working at a busy school and I would fly sometimes 7 hours a day I only did 5 days a week but i had a few 30-35 hour weeks. I was just really not cut out to be an instructor and was sick of hourly wages, went north for Multi PIC and Salary. Michaels offer is the best I've seen personally. Potential for some very decent wages. As also stated you wont be a class 4 for a solid year so the wage would go up (knew a guy who went class 4- class 2 in 7 months).
Re: The instructor pay farce.
C-GGGQ wrote:I think Michaels offer is fine (especially medical and dental, never got that with any of my offers) I was working at a busy school and I would fly sometimes 7 hours a day I only did 5 days a week but i had a few 30-35 hour weeks. I was just really not cut out to be an instructor and was sick of hourly wages, went north for Multi PIC and Salary. Michaels offer is the best I've seen personally. Potential for some very decent wages. As also stated you wont be a class 4 for a solid year so the wage would go up (knew a guy who went class 4- class 2 in 7 months).
as compared to what? the home depot?
Re: The instructor pay farce.
It is a fact that this industry does not pay as well as you might hope, and if you want to earn real money you shouldn't join it!as compared to what? the home depot?
Bus drivers do a hell of a lot better than multi IFR pilots flying for some of the bigger better operators besides Westjet and AC.
If it is money you want as a pilot in Canada, forget it.
I myself have lived a lean life in this 'industry', but we don't do it for the money in the end.
I make efforts to improve everybody's lot here, but I can only do so much. The whole 'industry' has to change, but since it has been this way and not even as good for 50 years or so I don't expect the culture to change that quickly.
