Logging RP time

[HavaJava]

Seeing as I may be getting laid off soon I thought I better get my personal logbook in order. I was wondering how people are logging their relief pilot time. Do you put it under co-pilot time for the time spent at the controls (or the entire flight?) or do you log it in a new column labeled RP time? Are you including your RP time towards your total time?

Here's hoping no one will be out looking for a new job!

[Lost in Saigon]

I assume you are type rated (type endorsement) and as such you are fully qualified to operate the aircraft. In fact due to your training, you are allowed to operate the aircraft from either seat.

Canadian Airlines (and most other airlines today) did not have relief pilots or cruise pilots. They used fully qualified First Officers. As an "RP" at Air Canada, you are also just as qualified. You just don't have the seniority to hold First Officer.

SO..... Log the entire flight as First Officer. You are a required crewmember on that flight. The flight can NOT depart without you. Just as the Captain logs the entire flight, so should you.

Same for double augment flights with 2 entire crews.

[Rockie]

Just a small correction Saigon. The 340 fleet has a specific CRP course that is abbreviated from what a normal crew would recieve. In addition they do a CRP PPC which doesn't include a lot of the stuff a normal crew would get including takeoff and landing, V1 cuts etc. Consequently the pilot recieves a "CRP only" restricted PPC. The 767 to my knowledge doesn't do this, and I'm not sure what the 777 does. As far a logging it, the CRP logs the same time as the rest of the crew, but I think it goes under the "2nd pilot" heading.

[Lost in Saigon]

The 340's are gone now.

They did some "short" courses on the 767 in the past but now I think everyone is getting full courses with full unrestricted type endorsements. In reccurrent, they only do a CRP PPC, but that is a company thing, and as far as I am concerned, they are still First Officers.

My logbook doesn't have a "2nd pilot" heading. But even if it did, isn't first pilot and second pilot the same as Captain and First Officer?

[Rockie]

The 340's are gone now.

They did some "short" courses on the 767 in the past but now I think everyone is getting full courses with full unrestricted type endorsements. In reccurrent, they only do a CRP PPC, but that is a company thing, and as far as I am concerned, they are still First Officers.

My logbook doesn't have a "2nd pilot" heading. But even if it did, isn't first pilot and second pilot the same as Captain and First Officer?

I don't think so. But TC would be the definitive source I guess. There is still a short (CRP only) course on the 330 since they use RP's on the West coast to Europe flights. The CRP initial and recurrent is an actual TC approved PPC that didn't exist in Canada until Air Canada decided they didn't want to spend as much money training RP's as they do regular crew.

This is the CRP training stipulated by CAR 725.124 (19)

(19) Cruise Relief Pilot (CRP) Training

(a) Initial and Annual Training
(amended 1998/03/23; previous version)

(i) aeroplane technical ground training sufficient to assure that the CRP is knowledgeable with respect to aeroplane systems and all normal, abnormal and emergency procedures (including upset training on initial and every two years thereafter) that would be encountered during the cruise phase of flight;
(amended 2003/06/01; previous version)

(ii) flight Simulator training sufficient to assure that the CRP is proficient with respect to all normal, abnormal and emergency procedures (including upset training on initial and every two years thereafter) that would be encountered during the cruise phase of flight, and instrument flight to a Group 1 Instrument Rating Standard;
(amended 2003/06/01; previous version)

(iii) operations training sufficient to assure that the CRP is proficient with respect to procedures unique to the airspace that will be flown;

(iv) CRP Pilot Proficiency Check-as per Schedule III; and

(v) line Check (Cruise Relief Pilot) - One sector.

(b) Recurrent Training

(i) aeroplane systems and procedures review;

(ii) flight Simulator training, reviewing cruise flight normal, abnormal and emergency procedures, and instrument flight training if required to renew an IFR;

(iii) CRP Pilot Proficiency Check - Annually and as per Schedule III; and

(iv) line Check (Cruise Relief Pilot) - One sector annually.

(c) Regaining Competency

(i) Where the CRP PPC has expired for less than 12 months, competency shall be regained by completing the CRP recurrent training program;

(ii) Where the PPC has expired from between 12 and 24 months, competency shall be regained by:

(A) completing the CRP recurrent training program; and

(B) completing a technical ground training course consisting of an aeroplane system review and FTD training (where applicable).



The CRP PPC is in Schedule III here: http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Regse ... a72503.htm

You won't find a takeoff or landing anywhere in that requirement. I fully agree with your opinion though that they are a full member of the crew despite what their licence may or may not say.

[Jaques Strappe]

I would log it but disclose it as "Relief Pilot" duties, not First Officer. For one thing. you were not the "designated" First Officer for those flights and you can only really log the time you performed as a crew member in that capacity. Also, even if you have an endorsement on your license, you must still maintain currency for the seat, or position you were qualified in. As a first Officer, or Captain, you are required to complete so many landings and takeoffs within a specified period of time to maintain that currency. So an RP who has not taken off or landed the airplane in the past couple of years, is not qualified to be logging any time other than "Relief Pilot".

Besides all that, if you are in an interview claiming to have a 1000 hours on a heavy as an F/O and your future employer checks for a reference, to find that you were an RP, it won't fair well on your character. Time as an RP is still valued so don't be hesitant to say that is what you were doing. Misrepresenting yourself will most often sewer your chances.

[Snowgoose]

I don't have an RP or 2nd Pilot column in my logbook. I log it as Co-Pilot and list the F/O in the remarks column. Plus I don't log take-offs or landings. That's the way I see it happening and I sign my name to it.

An RP who got laid off in 2003 got a job as an F/O using logged time.

Don't lie but also look out for number 1.

[Lost in Saigon]

One RP who got laid off in 2003 went to Gulf Air as an FO and now he is a 767 Captain. He ain't commin back.

Another RP went to China and now is a 747-400 freighter Captain for ANA. He ain't commin back.

Another RP went to China. I think he is now a chief pilot or chief instructor in Macau. He ain't commin back.

I think these airlines were glad to have them and maybe looked the other way. For one thing these RP's held ICAO licences, type rated on heavy widebody aircraft. That was probably good enough. In fact these "RP's" had more time and better experience then some of the Captains they were flying with.

Yes, you have to look out for number one.

[HavaJava]

Are other RPs logging the entire flight time or just the time spent on the flight deck?

[Snowgoose]

All of it.

[Lost in Saigon]

All of it.

It is called FLIGHT TIME. Not "sitting in the seat time" or "holding the pole time".

At Air Canada it starts the time the parking brake is released prior to pushback until the door is opened again at arrival. So you log all of it. Just like the Captain does. Just like the First officer does.

As I said before, the Cruise Relief Pilot is a required member of the flight crew and the flight can not depart unless he is onboard. Why would he log the flight any differently than the CA or FO?

That being said, there are some airlines who will not pay you for time in the bunk. This includes Captains and First officers. This is especially true when there are two complete crews onboard. (2 CA and 2 FO) In that case I would still log the entire flight but only get paid for half.

[yycflyguy]

All of it.

It is called FLIGHT TIME. Not "sitting in the seat time" or "holding the pole time".

My "holding the pole time" far exceeds my flight time.

[TFE731]

Are other RPs logging the entire flight time or just the time spent on the flight deck?

I logged all of it as well.

[Panama Jack]

Good to know, thanks guys. So I just logged 3 hours as FO today sleeping in First Class. Some of the most pleasant hours logged in an airplane.

[Lost in Saigon]

Air Canada Business Class with the new "XM" lie flat seats is pretty nice, but it is not First Class. THIS is First Class:

http://www.asiatraveltips.com/news07/15 ... ites.shtml

http://www.singaporeair.com/saa/en_UK/c ... atures.jsp

[CCR]

To log time on an aircraft whether it be as PIC or SIC, one must be current to do so. To be current on an airplane one must conduct three take-offs and three landings in a 90 day period. When's the last time an RP at Air Canada landed or conducted a takeoff?

[Lost in Saigon]

Here is my take:

When the Captain in the bunk sleeping, the FO becomes the decision maker or "Pilot in Command". The RP (who is often sitting in the left seat) is then "second in command" and he assumes the duties of the First officer. That is why I think he should log First Officer time.

To me it doesn't matter that the RP isn't current on T/O and Landings. He was current when he got the type endorsement. He is current on everything else including emergency descent from the left seat. He is current and qualified to operate that aircraft.

If it is the Captains leg and he does the landing and takeoff, the FO still logs the whole flight doesn’t he? So what is the difference?

[Brick Head]

My "holding the pole time" far exceeds my flight time.

Isn't that "stick" time? For some "twig" time?

Just log it. All of it. At the end of the day it is your record of your career. Don't leave anything out.

Just don't claim anything is, what it isn't.

I've got picture's. Data links. WX. RP time. A note because I got yanked off the line when my second was born early. 1 hour in the Concord simulator in Toulouse France, with the necessary photo. When I got up graded.

It's a freaking scrap book.

[Four1oh]

Is that really officially how it works? The FO is PIC with a captain on board? wtf?

[Lost in Saigon]

On a 4 man crew, if the CA and FO are both in the bunk, the senior RP is in charge until one of them returns. On a 3 man crew if the CA is in the bunk and the FO is out of the flightdeck for physiological reasons, the RP is in charge until the FO returns.


Here is what the FOM says in 1.1 page 8:

1) Delegation of Authority:

Before the Designated Captain leaves the flight deck for his/her rest period, he/she will delegate responsibility for the safe and efficient operation of the flight. Delegation shall be according to the following guidelines:

• to the Operational Relief Pilot who is a Captain on type;
• to the Designated First Officer; or
• to the Operational Relief Pilot if both the Designated Captain and Designated First Officer are taking simultaneous rest breaks.

NOTE: During simultaneous relief, if both relief Pilots are Operational Relief Pilots holding the same position on type, system seniority shall prevail.

2) Should an abnormal/emergency situation develop while the Designated Captain is on rest break, the delegated Pilot will manage the operation until the Designated Captain returns to the flight deck. The delegation to Designated Captain status will be in the
following order:

Operational Relief Captain
Designated First Officer
Operational Relief First Officer
Cruise Relief Pilot

Exception: In the event that an emergency descent is required due to a rapid depressurization or other emergency, the Pilot occupying the left seat will become the PF and conduct the procedure(s) as per the SOP.

In the case where two First Officers are occupying the pilot seats, and an emergency descent is required, the First Officer occupying the right seat, will become the PF and conduct the emergency descent.

[Jaques Strappe]

Lost in Saigon wrote:

When the Captain in the bunk sleeping, the FO becomes the decision maker or "Pilot in Command".

I can assure you that many Captains would take exception to that statement as well as the fact that if that statement were indeed accurate, you would have First Officers logging PIC time for the duration the skipper is out of the flight deck. As you stated in your following post, "the Pilot in Command will delegate authority", at no time does he relinquish it.

The simple fact remains, you can only log the time you are qualified to fly. An RP is just that, he is not qualified nor designated by the company to fly as a Captain, so cannot log PIC time. He is not trained or qualified as an F/O nor delegated as such by the company, so cannot log 2IC time. He is trained, qualified and designated by the company to operate its' aircraft in the capacity of a relief pilot and therefore the time should be logged as such. It really isn't complicated.

If it is the Captains leg and he does the landing and takeoff, the FO still logs the whole flight doesn’t he? So what is the difference?

Cmon Saigon, you know full well that there are both PF duties as well as PNF duties for takeoffs and landings. You are graded on both in the sim and line checks. An RP is not.

There used to be a very definitive reference regarding designated duties of crew members in the Licensing and Qualification section of the FOM but I am too lazy to look it up right now.

[Motto Pilot]

Hmm, as an FO I could have some decent jet PIC if I log all the time while the skipper was in the can.

[Soar]

Interesting thread

following order:

Operational Relief Captain
Designated First Officer
Operational Relief First Officer
Cruise Relief Pilot

I think this statement alone tells you, you can't log FO time as a RP. Why else would they have an "Operational Relief First Officer". Or not?

I'm also a little confused. So if some people are logging RP time as FO time, and also logging the entire flight, theoretically that means for a given flight, there would be 2 FOs on active duty (flying) at the exact same time, simultaneously (on paper at least - the logbook). I think it'd raise some serious eye brows at an interview if the interviewer happened to interview these 2 people (the actual FO and RP) and happened to go through this entry. One guy or gal claiming to be the FO, and someone else also claiming the same thing for the same flight. Perhaps he/she would ask if you were sitting on each other's laps?

Anyways, just a thought.

Your FOM must have something concrete in regards to this.

[Brick Head]

Here is what the FOM says in 1.1 page 8:

1) Delegation of Authority:

Before the Designated Captain leaves the flight deck for his/her rest period, he/she will delegate responsibility for the safe and efficient operation of the flight. Delegation shall be according to the following guidelines:

• to the Operational Relief Pilot who is a Captain on type;
• to the Designated First Officer; or
• to the Operational Relief Pilot if both the Designated Captain and Designated First Officer are taking simultaneous rest breaks.

Lost,

Delegation is not relinquishment of authority. It is a tool for effective management.

Delegation of authority.

The action by which a commander assigns part of his or her authority commensurate with the assigned task to a subordinate commander. While ultimate responsibility cannot be relinquished, delegation of authority carries with it the imposition of a measure of responsibility. The extent of the authority delegated must be clearly stated

[Inverted2]

Hmm, as an FO I could have some decent jet PIC if I log all the time while the skipper was in the can.

Especially if he gets locked out!