logging time

[francois]

Hi,

I normally rent at a school and they charge with the hobb. It is the same hobb time that I write in my logbook. In the plane logbook, there is a air time column, and we write 0.3 less. This seem to be equal to tach time.

Now I'm looking to buy a block of time on another plane. They charge by the tach. My question: How do I log my time? Do I also use the tach?, Do I add 0.3 each leg? Do I take the time on my watch since start to stop of the engine? Is there a hobb meter on every plane?

Thanks

Francois

[Bobby868]

No not all planes have a hobbs meter.

You log flight time in your personal log book not airtime.

Airtime is tach time.

Flight time is the time from when the engine starts to when it stops. If the plane you rent doesn't have a hobbs meter then use your wrist watch and write the start and stop time.

[AuxBatOn]

Or add 0.1 to every flight... Should be sufficient...

AuxBatOn

[Hedley]

Or add 0.2 to the tach time. It's pretty hard to not spend
12 minutes on the ground starting up, taxiing out, doing a
runup, pre-flight checks, then after you land, taxi back in,
post-flight checks, etc.

Depends upon the airport, too. Some larger places, you're
gonna do a LOT of taxiing and 0.2 won't be enough.

[tcraft]

Your hobbs time is your flight time. I starts when your engine starts as your flight time should.

[Hedley]

Most of the time. However, I have seen hobbs wired directly
to the avionics master, presumably to save the cost and time
of installing the oil pressure switch, that you're really supposed
to have.

I won't name any names, but when this little detail got out,
some thoughtful pilots starting turning the masters off in flight,
because they were being charged by hobbs time.

I might point out that while it is reasonable to log as flight
time all the time that the prop is turning - after all, you could
kill someone, and it only seems reasonable to log all the time
that you could kill someone - technically you should not start
logging flight time until the parking brake goes off aircraft starts
to move.

Or, you could just add 0.2 to the tach

[trey kule]

tcraft wrote

[quote][/quote]Your hobbs time is your flight time. I starts when your engine starts as your flight time should. [quote]/quote]

I dont believe that is correct. Flight time starts when the aircraft first moves under its own power not when the engine starts. I think if you take a few moments to look it up the definition is pretty clear.

I think Hedley got it prety much correct,

[Lost in Saigon]

Flight time doesn't start when you start the engine. It starts when the aircraft moves under it's own power for the purpose of a flight.

In reality, flight time has NOTHING to do with tach time or Hobbs meters. It is only related to that instrument on your wrist (watch) or the instrument on the panel (clock).

But here is the kicker. The point of logging time is to have a legal record of your flying. It would be a good idea to ask the owner of the aircraft how they enter the "Air" time and then figure out how to add the appropriate taxi time to equal your flight time.

Transport Canada may ask to see those Journey Logs one day to validate your logbook.

[C23flyer]

Or add 0.2 to the tach time. It's pretty hard to not spend
12 minutes on the ground starting up, taxiing out, doing a
runup, pre-flight checks, then after you land, taxi back in,
post-flight checks, etc.

I have a log sheet to track fuel for each flight, and I record all the times on top SU TO LA and SD according to my watch. With only a very few exceptions, my flight time is consistently 0.2 more than the air time. Cool.

[small penguin]

Why not keep it simple? Rather than all this tach/hobbs stuff, the +0.1 or the +0.2...

Airplane starts moving, note the time
Airplane takes off, note the time
Airplane lands, note the time
Airplane stops moving, note the time

On average though, my flight time is 0.2 more than air, but on occasion, I do get 0.1, or 0.3.

[Hedley]

On average though, my flight time is 0.2 more than air

With only a very few exceptions, my flight time is consistently 0.2 more than the air time

... note the time ... note the time ... note the time ... note the time

What I want to know is, if I drop my pencil, is it a "pan pan" or mayday?

[small penguin]

Mental note?

Just me, I guess note should have been said as 'remember' or 'mental note' instead of being interpreted as 'write down'

Usually I write down my first time. Take off time I remember it as a plus X from first time. If I can during flight, I'll write it down. Landing time, mental note again, and if I need to write it down, I can do so after I taxi clear of the runway. Else, keep it in mind until stop/shutoff at the fuel pumps.

[joco]

Hobbs time is your log time. You operate the a/c from engine start to engine shutdown. Check the hobbs time against your wrist watch. Hobbs reading is inaccurate during winter months (oil viscosity). Go by your watch during winter.

Trey Kule please point us to the definition as you understand it. As a side note, if you do not log the time while the engine is started, prior to taxi sequence, who is operating the a/c?

In my understanding you operate the a/c when you turn the engine on.

[Hedley]

http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/publi ... -1.htm#4-1

Flight Time is the total time from the moment an aircraft first moves under its own power for the purpose of taking off until the moment it comes to rest at the end of the flight. This should be recorded in all Pilot Log Books.

I know it's not a legal document, but I figure Transport
went to all the trouble of writing the AIM, the least we
can do is to read it every now & then

P.S. I am sure that you could get charged with reckless
and/or negligent (CAR 602.01) if someone got hurt
because you started an aircraft improperly, even before
you could technically start logging flight time, according
to the AIM.

You can be charged, as a pilot, with violating the CARs
as the operator of an aircraft even if you are not exercising
the privileges of your pilot licence. There is plenty of Tribunal
precedent on this.

[joco]

Ok, you have a valid point. Now.. I do not fly jets, how would those guys log their time? Who's operating the a/c during pushback? Are they not eligible to log that time?

Thanks Hedley.

[Lost in Saigon]

Ok, you have a valid point. Now.. I do not fly jets, how would those guys log their time? Who's operating the a/c during pushback? Are they not eligible to log that time?

Thanks Hedley.

Just because you are operating an aircraft, it doesn't mean you get to log it as flight time. Engineers taxi (operate) aircraft all the time. Should they be able to log it as flight time?

The rules are exactly the same for heavy jets. But as you can see here, very few pilots seem to want to take the extra few seconds to write down the times and correctly log Flight Time or Air Time.

At Air Canada, the flight time is established in a computerized monitoring system when the park brake is released prior to pushback if on a gate. It is not LEGALLY correct but the system can't tell when the aircraft actually moves forward under it's own power for the purpose of taking off. The Air Time is also recorded this way when the wheels leave the ground.

The system some times makes mistakes and the Captain can radio in the times, or send a data link message to correct the times.

Air Canada pilots are paid by the hour for Flight Time, so they usually pay very close attention to the little box that displays the "out" and "in" times. (brakes off until brakes on)

[Bobby868]

tcraft wrote

Your hobbs time is your flight time. I starts when your engine starts as your flight time should.

/quote]

I dont believe that is correct. Flight time starts when the aircraft first moves under its own power not when the engine starts. I think if you take a few moments to look it up the definition is pretty clear.

I think Hedley got it prety much correct,

Ummmm so by this you're saying helicopters flight time = airtime. In other words they never have flight time becuase as soon as they start to move they are airborn . . .

[Lost in Saigon]

Ummmm so by this you're saying helicopters flight time = airtime. In other words they never have flight time becuase as soon as they start to move they are airborn . . .

I have seen larger helicopters taxi around and then do a short takeoff run into wind.

[young grasshopper]

joco wrote:

Now.. I do not fly jets, how would those guys log their time? Who's operating the a/c during pushback? Are they not eligible to log that time?

I don't fly jet either, but I think it would be poor airmanship to have both engines attached while hooked up to a tug. I believe the APU is running for the pushback, and then engines are started after the disconnect (hence hearing crews ask gound/clearance delivery "for pushback and start"). Hedley hit the nail on the head.

[Lost in Saigon]

I don't fly jet either, but I think it would be poor airmanship to have both engines attached while hooked up to a tug. I believe the APU is running for the pushback, and then engines are started after the disconnect (hence hearing crews ask ground/clearance delivery "for pushback and start"). Hedley hit the nail on the head.

It is NORMAL procedure to start both engines DURING the pushback. Often they are both running by the time the pushback is complete. Some congested ramp areas require you to wait until the pushback is complete before starting the engines.

But what does that have to do with Flight Time? As said earlier, flight time starts when the park brake is released on large jet aircraft. And that is normally with the engines off prior to pushback. I think most, if not all, airlines operate this way.

[joco]

Thanks for your replies.
cheers,
joco

[Tim]

You have to get airborne to log a flight. So a taxi with snag before getting airborne is not a flight or a journey log entry (other than the snag).

[young grasshopper]

Lost in Saigon - thanks for the info...us lowly turboprop guys don't get a pushback unless something has gone really wrong!!! cheers

[C23flyer]

What I want to know is, if I drop my pencil, is it a "pan pan" or mayday?

At least my pencil will always fall on the floor. My memory just isn't what it used to be, so I need to write it down.

[tcraft]

With a float plane, as soon as you start your engine the plane is under movement. I would think that one could use your tach or hobbs meter for flight time. And why would you add .2 to your tach time when your engine is not running. Better yet, note time when engine starts, note time off,note time when you land ,note time when you stop.