Saint-Hubert Flying School in Montreal

[LOCBC]

Any one has any information about this school?
Thank you

[SQ]

you gonna do 5hrs of 150 in the sim before going into the real plane

should go next door to cargair

[Lommer]

Decent enough school with the best maintained equipment around. That said, they have a "philosophy" that they buy into pretty hard that I don't agree with sometimes. E.g. making their students buy a nice, laminated, $15 copy of the C152 checklist when other schools would just photocopy it for free; also suggesting they buys a $40 flashlight that you can buy for $5 at Jean Coutu, I could go on. I also found that they really restrict their students a lot and don't let them push themselves very hard. It makes for a very safe learning environment with a shallow learning curve thats lets you master some finer points of flying, but training definitely ends up taking longer and really doesn't prepare their students for how the "real world" works.

Anyways, that's my $0.02. Any other questions feel free to pm me.

[SQ]

I also found that they really restrict their students a lot and don't let them push themselves very hard. It makes for a very safe learning environment with a shallow learning curve thats lets you master some finer points of flying, but training definitely ends up taking longer and really doesn't prepare their students for how the "real world" works.

trhats true and I personnaly had to do my flights without telling anyhting about the real kind of flight I was going to practice .
some instructors are not like that and at the contrary will push their students to do more i.e. go land on the 6' wide St mathias runway or fly in low vis just to see how it is, or do some low level flight etc etc etc...
I think this very safe learning environment is getting more strict with all the incident caused by the chinese, the restriction imposed on the X wind creating a generation of instructor ignoring how to land in said Xwind.

but the airmanship is very good, aeronautical culture available and not oo bad aircraft ( a new engine evrey 2000hrs)

it stays a family run business with its inconvenients...

[viennatech]

I went in there last year, spoke to the mgr. He was rude in general but worse was he seemed very lassiez faire about the entire thing. The most serious thing was that they wanted cash up front and would not work with me unless I stuck to their agenda. (Which he didn't have time to show me. I felt like if i don't hand over $10k today, he doesn't want to talk to me)

Drove about 200 yards to the east and found Air Richlieu. They use newer equipment (Glass cockpits, Cirrus Sr20's) , have killer simulators and they don't have the attitude. I also checked Cargair but it felt like I was at "Air Canada Academy" I may be getting old but, have trouble taking an 18 year old seriously with his captain's bars on his white t-shirt. One thing all of these schools seem to have in common is a strong fear of bad weather or cold. Seems odd to me being a Canadian operation.

I guess if you're looking for a sterile learning environment look at CYHU, otherwise you have Mascouche to the North, Les Cedres to the West and many others on the south shore.

[Hedley]

they wanted cash up front

Never, ever give cash up front to a flight school!

[SQ]

I also checked Cargair but it felt like I was at "Air Canada Academy" I may be getting old but, have trouble taking an 18 year old seriously with his captain's bars on his white t-shirt.

nobody wears bars at cargair
limit concerning cold at cargair are defined by the insurance to -18 only, they would have to pay more to fly in colder temp but I'm not the one paying so...
lots of instructor overthere are frustrated to not be abble to fly more

[Hedley]

limit concerning cold ... are defined by the insurance to -18

This sounds fishy to me. I know that plastic airplanes which are
adored by many here, have cold temperature limits as part of
their certification which are never reached in say Europe, but
are frequently encountered here in Canada.

Blaming the insurance underwriters for an exact -18C cold
temp limit sounds awfully unlikely. Not -17C, not -19C.

[SQ]

Blaming the insurance underwriters for an exact -18C cold
temp limit sounds awfully unlikely. Not -17C, not -19C.

I totally agree with you hedley and I often smiled when I heard/read/ been told that by "management"
it's allways funny to see everybody front of the computer looking at the metar to look at the temp and wait for it to increase of 1* to -18*........ what the heck is it going to change ???

none of us believed that ever........

[blueskies777]

The biggest thing that bugs me about the school is the policy of sim sim sim sim

Let me ask a question.

What happens when the school policy conflicts with Transport.

Example:The school says you have to do an extra 25 hours of multi-ifr time in the sim at a cost of maybe $8k

Transport doesnt require those extra hours.Can i force the school to not make me take those hours,

or

because the school is a business i really have to follow what they do?

Thanks,

[Hedley]

Smells like a cash grab. You can't "force" a business
to do anything, unless you can afford better lawyers
than they can.

Vote with your wallet, and switch schools.

[5x5]

Example:The school says you have to do an extra 25 hours of multi-ifr time in the sim at a cost of maybe $8k

I wish we could make $8k off of 25 hours in a SIM. Typically the SIM will run in the neighborhood of $100 including instructor. Perhaps the number is a bit off? Regardless, I agree with Hedley that anytime you aren't getting the training you want you should either try to get it changed or change schools. You are the customer and some schools seem to forget that.

At the same time, don't hesitate to talk with the CFI to see why the policy you don't agree with is in place. Often there is a reason for it. Once you know it you may not agree with it, but at least you can make an informed decision. In this case, it could be that the school feels SIM time is a lot cheaper and better (or it should be - see comment above) way to learn basic IFR procedures than in a very expensive airplane.

[Hedley]

You don't need an approved sim to learn IFR
procedures (eg ADF tracking with wind). A PC
will work just fine.

So you can't log the time. Who cares?

The important thing is that you develop the skills.

[mike123]

Is this a good school for PPL training? They seem to have the cheapest rates in Montreal are, but I am worried whether they might "milk" their students to compensate for cheaper prices?

[trampbike]

Take care with the rates of St-Hubert Flying School. For the aircraft rental, add between 5 and 9$ per hour of a fuel surcharge. Add 9,31$ of landing fees. Add 45$ per hour of instructor, and as soon as you have your PPL, the instructor is 55$ (funny eh? I had the same instructor for my PPL and night, but it cost 10$/h more, and HE was not paid more). BTW they apply selling taxes to instructor fees, which I'm not sure is legal. Also, don't buy everything they suggest you to buy, otherwise, you'll buy a 400$ headset (Sennheiser hme110), some 40-50$ POH for small Cessna, a trifold kneeboard etc. I really suggest you shop around (especially on the internet) for such things. They DO want you to have their shinny 15$ checklists.

What I really did not like at that school was the total lack of planning. You get into the aircraft with your instructor, takeoff, and when you level off you start wondering what the hell should we practise today? I'd much rather have a plan, so I know what to prepare, and I know what I can do to be able to fly only the minimum with the instructor.

They are really safe thought. Crosswinds, visibility, ceiling and low temperature limits are all well within the reasonable flying enveloppe. -15 degrees, 7 knots crosswind (this one is the most ridiculous of all), perfect visibility and at least 3000-4000ft of ceiling. I think it could be a good thing for a PPL student, but after that if you continue your formation, you will want to see some real weather...

[Louis]

Flight school estimates are not going to be of much use to you. They are typically:

-Made with the cheapest plane. Usually: Cessna 150/152. Not always the plane you'll want to fly, if only due to weight and balance considerations.
-Made to the legal minimum required times: 45 hours for a PPL. Unless you are either; an air cadet doing his "power"; a dedicated, thoroughly prepared, smart student doing this full time guided by a skilled instructor; you can forget doing it in those times. Think more between 50-55-60 hours total, more if you space out lessons or lack preparation. Good thing is that some of this is under your control.
-May or may not include things like ground school, books, required material, medical, exam and flight test fees, etc.

An honest instructor should fill you in on those caveats and probably tell you a more "realistic" amount to budget.
The estimates can however help to compare schools rates on different items.

fuel surcharge. Add 9,31$ of landing fees

What happened to just "changing your rates"?
The landing fees are standard at all schools in CYHU. They're charged by DASH-L which manages the airport for the city. I would not consider them a factor to decide between one school on the field versus another.

What I really did not like at that school was the total lack of planning. You get into the aircraft with your instructor, takeoff, and when you level off you start wondering what the hell should we practise today? I'd much rather have a plan, so I know what to prepare, and I know what I can do to be able to fly only the minimum with the instructor.

That warrants action from a student. Either a talk with the chief instructor, a change of instructor, or a change of school. Remember: your PTR is yours by law.

They are really safe though. Crosswinds, visibility, ceiling and low temperature limits are all well within the reasonable flying enveloppe. -15 degrees, 7 knots crosswind (this one is the most ridiculous of all), perfect visibility and at least 3000-4000ft of ceiling. I think it could be a good thing for a PPL student, but after that if you continue your formation, you will want to see some real weather...

I think that a PPL student, at least after he's got a few basics covered, should be exposed to more conditions than that under supervision so that they're not a total surprise once that now newly licenced pilot is on its own. Seven knots max crosswind?!? WTF. (Someone, please tell me he's misinformed.) A max demonstrated crosswind value is just that. A demonstrated figure. Not a limitation. In other words, instead of staying home when the wind blows a lot, call your instructor, and go do touch and goes in some proper crosswind. Master your airplane at that max demo crosswind and then some. You'll be a much better and safer pilot for it.

A bit of background: I've instructed out of St-Hubert and St-Jean some time ago, not at the discussed school. (You can find out where if you research some of my previous posts a bit.) I still give out the odd groundschool, but my rating lapsed last May as I have moved into another line of work which involves bringing people up, but not down...

Shop around and do your homework like it seems you are.

Goodbye,

Louis

[trampbike]

Louis, thanks for your reply. You are right about the planification. It's the student (custommer) job to make sure he pays for something worth it. I have been pretty stupid when getting into aviation world. I did not shop a lot, I believed everything FTU told me etc. It's only after my PPL+night I decided to shop for CPL multi-ifr. There I started to see that the way it worked at St-Hubert Flying School was not the only way a FTU could work!

I am well informed about the restrictions for solo flight. Here are the official school policies (keep in mind you can argue a little (very little bit!) with the CFI or be lucky to have an instructor that argues a bit more with him, so sometimes you can go in a bit worse weather, like let's say 8kts xwind...):

Fuel when starting; Max
Max headwind: 15 kts (WTF???)
Max crosswind: 7kts
Minimum temperature: -10 if student (it's not a joke) -15 with and instructor (not touch and go at -15 though...)

Ceiling circuits: 1500 ft AGL (that make sense tought, but they never really let you go when the ceiling is that low)
Min visibility circuits: 6 sm

Local day: 6 sm vis and 3000ft AGL
XC day: 10sm of vis and 3000ft AGL ceiling
XC and local night: 10sm of vis and 4000ft AGL ceiling

[mike123]

Thanks for your answers guys.

-Made to the legal minimum required times: 45 hours for a PPL. Unless you are either; an air cadet doing his "power"; a dedicated, thoroughly prepared, smart student doing this full time guided by a skilled instructor; you can forget doing it in those times. Think more between 50-55-60 hours total, more if you space out lessons or lack preparation. Good thing is that some of this is under your control.

I've been told that on average it takes about 60 hours of flying to get the license and since it depends mostly on me, I guess I'll need pretty much the same amount of hours in any given school.

So, here come two other questions:

1. What are waiting times?

2. How far from the airport is their training area?

The reason I am asking this is because at St-Hubert hourly rates are $20 less than at Laurentide Aviation (this would give me about $1000 - $1200 of total savings), but at Laurentide Aviation I won't waste time waiting on the ground and getting to the training area.
So, if anyone could answer these questions please do.

[trampbike]

The great things with St-Hubert Flying School is that they always have planes available. If the weather is good enough to fly, chances are you will get an aircraft even if you book an hour before your flight.

I do not really understand the question about training area... The school is right besides taxiway T, so you walk 30 sec from the school door to your plane, you taxi 20 meters, and on taxiway T you are. After takeoff, its around 10 minutes before getting out of the control zone and starting you maneuver training.

[mike123]

I do not really understand the question about training area...

After takeoff, its around 10 minutes before getting out of the control zone and starting you maneuver training.

This is what I wanted to know - how much time it takes to get to the area where students can practice.

[Louis]

And a smart instructor will use this to throw assorted bits of info, ask the student questions, start on instrument flying, prepare the upcoming exercise etc...

Since you're also looking at Laurentides Aviation, I guess you're not stuck on driving a bit or you're somewhere in the West Island. In either case, maybe St-Jean is an option, the name of the school there is Devenir Pilote. (I do some work there, but not flight instruction at the moment.)

[hairdo]

limit concerning cold ... are defined by the insurance to -18

This sounds fishy to me. I know that plastic airplanes which are
adored by many here, have cold temperature limits as part of
their certification which are never reached in say Europe, but
are frequently encountered here in Canada.

Blaming the insurance underwriters for an exact -18C cold
temp limit sounds awfully unlikely. Not -17C, not -19C.

Is said aircraft the DA20? If so, we fly 'em all the way down to -30. Gotta be honest though, they get really F***** cold inside below -20. But then, I don't know of any temp restrictions, so maybe not the DA20.

[mike123]

Since you're also looking at Laurentides Aviation, I guess you're not stuck on driving a bit or you're somewhere in the West Island. In either case, maybe St-Jean is an option, the name of the school there is Devenir Pilote.

Just checked their site, found something I haven't seen on any other school price lists:

Permis d’élève-pilote / Student pilot permit 45.00 $
Certificat restreint de radiotéléphoniste / Radiotelephone operator's restricted certificate 55.00 $
Examen de réglementation aérienne (PSTAR) / Air regulation exam (PSTAR) 35.00 $

Is this something that only this school requires, or hidden costs other schools don't mention until you join?

[deflux]

Woah, $55 for a radio license??? They are free from Industry Canada so the school is just charging to give you the test (which takes about 5 minutes...)

At the school I did my training at, nobody ever paid to write a PSTAR, radio exam or get a student pilot permit. These things together total maybe 30 minutes of administrative time, and the school is already taking thousands of your money. They should be doing this stuff for free, IMO.

[trampbike]

Nice to see St-Jean school mention that they charge. What I've been used to is to have to pay without beeing warned and informed!